NFC North/NFL Thread 2016-17

[mu03eng]

Capers and Thompson both need to go. The defense has issues with both scheme and personnel. I get that Shields was hurt, but A) he always gets hurt and B) how do we not have a back-up plan other than an undrafted rookie trying to cover the best receiver in the league one on one. I don't think Capers can scheme effectively anymore and get it to sink in with his players, but the personnel he's asked to work with is pretty sad.

Another "conspiracy theory" how is it that year in and year out the Packers are one of, if not the most injured teams in the league?

[jesmu84]

No.  Way too much emphasis on individual QBs and Super Bowl success.  Look at the other 52 guys on the roster.  Put Rodgers on last year's Broncos or the Seattle team that won the SB and he'd win the Super Bowl those years.

And now with the salary cap you can't build a dynasty as easily.  New England is the exception to the rule.

After the Pack beat Pitt and I was on my way home from a Super Bowl party, I actually thought "Enjoy this.  Everyone assumed Favre would win another.  This might be Rodgers' only one."

I think you misunderstood my point. I was saying that the organization doesn't do enough to surround him with talent on the rest of the roster. Thereby wasting his opportunity at success.

You win in the NFL with average roster + elite QB (colts with Manning, Patriots, packers) or elite roster + average QB (Ravens with dilfer, etc). Pack, I don't think, have even an average roster outside of Rodger.

[brandx]

You're not serious, are you? In 2011, NE had the 31st ranked D in the NFL and made it to the SB.

In the 6 games in which GB has been eliminated since the SB, Rodgers has completed under 60% of his passes, thrown 11 TDs, 6 INTs and has a QB rating of  81.9. It's not always on the D.

We obviously rank defenses differently. It is all about points allowed. That's how winners are decided.

And NE was in the Top 20 (again, higher than GB) - not #31. And they were 1 point allowed per game away from being in the top 10 defenses that year.

[MerrittsMustache]

We obviously rank defenses differently. It is all about points allowed. That's how winners are decided.

And NE was in the Top 20 (again, higher than GB) - not #31. And they were 1 point allowed per game away from being in the top 10 defenses that year.

Yards allowed is typically used to rank defenses.

In 2011, NE was also 1 point allowed per game away from being the same as GB.

If you go with Points Allowed this season, GB was 21st while Atlanta was 27th.

If you go with DVOA, NE's D was 16th this season. GB: 20th, Atl: 27th.

The 27th-ranked D shut down a top 5 offense but the 21st-ranked D couldn't even slow down the #1 offense...or did the offense and QB performances play any part in that?

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I think you misunderstood my point. I was saying that the organization doesn't do enough to surround him with talent on the rest of the roster. Thereby wasting his opportunity at success.

You win in the NFL with average roster + elite QB (colts with Manning, Patriots, packers) or elite roster + average QB (Ravens with dilfer, etc). Pack, I don't think, have even an average roster outside of Rodger.

No, I understood.  Can't resign everyone, bringing in FA don't always work out, draft is a crapshoot, as are injuries.

Every roster will have a hole on it.  Health, matchups, and luck all play a role.

[rocket surgeon]

Mofo's have dropped how many passes? Fumbled inside da 10, missed a chip-shot fg, gotten injured fallin' inta each utter. Amazed #12 had any cool left ta lose, ai na?

just catching up on some reading here-what the hell is going on out there???

                 very well stated warrior-great summary in 30 words-the end

next big question(s) is(are) ted thompson going to relinquish to wolf jr. and will we sign some free agents that will take the lombardi oath

        "“If it doesn’t matter who wins or loses, then why do they keep score?”
“Winning is not a sometime thing…it’s an all the time thing. You don’t win once in a while…you don’t do the right thing once in a while…you do them right all the time. Winning is a habit.”
“Show me a good loser, and I’ll show you a loser.”
“Winning isn’t everything, it’s the only thing.”


     you can just hear the big I'm ein'er in unison at the end, I'm really a badger fan?

[tower912]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2017/01/23/kyle-van-noy-patriots/96958134/

Why the Patriots are the Patriots and the Lions are the Lions.      This guy sucked as a Lion.    Traded mid-season to NE for a late round draft pick.    Blows up.   

[brandx]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2017/01/23/kyle-van-noy-patriots/96958134/

Why the Patriots are the Patriots and the Lions are the Lions.      This guy sucked as a Lion.    Traded mid-season to NE for a late round draft pick.    Blows up.   

Bellichick's greatest coaching ability is seeing what a guy does best and then putting him in a position to do just that.

Most coaches take a player and and make him change to their system. system

[wadesworld]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18736686/chicago-bears-actively-shopping-jay-cutler

Good luck!

[DegenerateDish]

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18736686/chicago-bears-actively-shopping-jay-cutler

Good luck!

There's definitely a market for Cutler, in fact he's the most reasonably priced QB option on the market. Denver would be awkward, Miami, AZ, you could argue Dallas, Rams, Jets. He won't cost you as much draft capital as Garoppolo, not as much coin as Romo. Teams may force the Bears hand to cut him since it'd only cost the Bears $2 million. There's a lot of football stupid out there that thinks there's no takers for Cutler, but someone will pick him up, guaranteed.

[wadesworld]

There's definitely a market for Cutler, in fact he's the most reasonably priced QB option on the market. Denver would be awkward, Miami, AZ, you could argue Dallas, Rams, Jets. He won't cost you as much draft capital as Garoppolo, not as much coin as Romo. Teams may force the Bears hand to cut him since it'd only cost the Bears $2 million. There's a lot of football stupid out there that thinks there's no takers for Cutler, but someone will pick him up, guaranteed.

No doubt he'd be picked up.  I can't see them getting anything for him though.

[tower912]

I think they would take a mesh bag full of footballs for him.   

[MU82]

There's definitely a market for Cutler, in fact he's the most reasonably priced QB option on the market. Denver would be awkward, Miami, AZ, you could argue Dallas, Rams, Jets. He won't cost you as much draft capital as Garoppolo, not as much coin as Romo. Teams may force the Bears hand to cut him since it'd only cost the Bears $2 million. There's a lot of football stupid out there that thinks there's no takers for Cutler, but someone will pick him up, guaranteed.

Agreed. There is always a coach or coordinator who thinks he can "save" a chronic underachiever. I just hope whoever gets him realizes that he has always been a coach killer.

Brady: 5 Super Bowls and 1 head coach ... Cutler: 1 career playoff victory and 4 head coaches (and counting).

[DegenerateDish]

It's ultimately supply/demand, he's 33, maybe he starts for someone for a year, becomes a backup. If you trade for him, his contract is quite friendly, for what he'll cost you in salary for 2017 vs dead money, you could argue he's more valuable by trade (if you're planning on starting him). No one (that I know) is saying they'd get more than a mid/late round pick, but he does have value. Miami or AZ make the most sense to me.

[MerrittsMustache]

It's ultimately supply/demand, he's 33, maybe he starts for someone for a year, becomes a backup. If you trade for him, his contract is quite friendly, for what he'll cost you in salary for 2017 vs dead money, you could argue he's more valuable by trade (if you're planning on starting him). No one (that I know) is saying they'd get more than a mid/late round pick, but he does have value. Miami or AZ make the most sense to me.

Palmer stated that he's coming back to Arizona so I don't see that as a fit. Miami would be interesting given they have Gase and some weapons. 49ers could be an option to "reunite" Cutler with a Shanahan. The Jets could be interesting also as an old Bear reunion with Cutler, Marshall and Forte.

[MUBurrow]

I'd be surprised if Miami made a move, even though they certainly have the cap room. Tannehill was really starting to show signs of turning a corner last year before he got hurt.  The numbers didn't end up dramatically better than the year before, but he was making the types of throws that there were rumblings he'd never be able to make.  If there are doubts he'll fully recover from the knee injury, though, that's another story.

[JWags85]

Agreed. There is always a coach or coordinator who thinks he can "save" a chronic underachiever. I just hope whoever gets him realizes that he has always been a coach killer.

Brady: 5 Super Bowls and 1 head coach ... Cutler: 1 career playoff victory and 4 head coaches (and counting).

This works both ways.  Brady has had 1 HC and 3 OCs, and one system in 16 seasons.  Cutler has had far more inconsistency in both coaching and offensive gameplanning/systems.  If you don't think that has a negative effect on the leader of your offense, I don't know what to tell you.

Nobody is saying Cutler is a franchise saver, but to keep pointing at him as the primary reason a franchise thats been a dumpster fire since the 2007 Super Bowl continues to be a dumpster fire as they cycle through GMs and coaches, well thats a bit short sighted in an attempt to gleefully bash him.  He wasn't putting together a thin roster and drafting horribly, he's not Lebron.

Drew Brees is a HOF QB who plays for a well respected coach in Sean Payton, and hasnt had the injuries Cutler has had, and even they haven't been consistent playoff success stories outside of 2009 and until recently, haven't had a team like GB dominating their division.

TL/DR Cutler was disappointing, but the Bears have and have had a lot larger issues than just him as much as Wades and the media Cutler didn't play nice with want to pretend.

[wadesworld]

This works both ways.  Brady has had 1 HC and 3 OCs, and one system in 16 seasons.  Cutler has had far more inconsistency in both coaching and offensive gameplanning/systems.  If you don't think that has a negative effect on the leader of your offense, I don't know what to tell you.

Nobody is saying Cutler is a franchise saver, but to keep pointing at him as the primary reason a franchise thats been a dumpster fire since the 2007 Super Bowl continues to be a dumpster fire as they cycle through GMs and coaches, well thats a bit short sighted in an attempt to gleefully bash him.  He wasn't putting together a thin roster and drafting horribly, he's not Lebron.

Drew Brees is a HOF QB who plays for a well respected coach in Sean Payton, and hasnt had the injuries Cutler has had, and even they haven't been consistent playoff success stories outside of 2009 and until recently, haven't had a team like GB dominating their division.

TL/DR Cutler was disappointing, but the Bears have and have had a lot larger issues than just him as much as Wades and the media Cutler didn't play nice with want to pretend.

Meh.  When all Bears fans were backing Cutler with all their might and Bulls fans were backing Rose with all their might and calling me a hater, I was nailing them for exactly what they are.

[JWags85]

Exaggerate much?  Cutler has been polarizing most of his career and most people that you refer to here have argued for exactly what he is, a good but not great QB who has played on a number of mediocre teams.  Meanwhile you paint him as a cancerous player who hovers at the NFL equavalent of the Mendoza line and bring HOF QB contemporaries into the discussion.

But I don't know why I am doing this.  Wades telling Chicago fans they are all idiots and know nothing about sports is as reliable an occurrence as a sunrise.

[MUBurrow]

Cutler is his own worst enemy and sets himself up for a lot of the schadenfreude directed his way.  When the criticism gets sparked, it catches fire quickly because he has no friends to provide a counternarrative.  Hard to feel bad for him, but the numbers bear out that he just hasn't been as bad as everyone likes to claim.  Every full season he played in Chicago, his numbers have been about the same or better than his last season in Den. He never blossomed into the star people thought he might after those '08 and '09 seasons, but really never got worse than someone everyone thought had a ton of promise, either.

[wadesworld]

Exaggerate much?  Cutler has been polarizing most of his career and most people that you refer to here have argued for exactly what he is, a good but not great QB who has played on a number of mediocre teams.  Meanwhile you paint him as a cancerous player who hovers at the NFL equavalent of the Mendoza line and bring HOF QB contemporaries into the discussion.

But I don't know why I am doing this.  Wades telling Chicago fans they are all idiots and know nothing about sports is as reliable an occurrence as a sunrise.

Not sure I ever said anything you state in the 2nd paragraph.  But I'll take your word for it!

[MU82]

This works both ways.  Brady has had 1 HC and 3 OCs, and one system in 16 seasons.  Cutler has had far more inconsistency in both coaching and offensive gameplanning/systems.  If you don't think that has a negative effect on the leader of your offense, I don't know what to tell you.

Nobody is saying Cutler is a franchise saver, but to keep pointing at him as the primary reason a franchise thats been a dumpster fire since the 2007 Super Bowl continues to be a dumpster fire as they cycle through GMs and coaches, well thats a bit short sighted in an attempt to gleefully bash him.  He wasn't putting together a thin roster and drafting horribly, he's not Lebron.

Drew Brees is a HOF QB who plays for a well respected coach in Sean Payton, and hasnt had the injuries Cutler has had, and even they haven't been consistent playoff success stories outside of 2009 and until recently, haven't had a team like GB dominating their division.

TL/DR Cutler was disappointing, but the Bears have and have had a lot larger issues than just him as much as Wades and the media Cutler didn't play nice with want to pretend.

Many fair points here.

The Bears, indeed, have had lots of issues. And comparing anybody to Brady and the Patriots probably was silly on my part. Very good point on Brees, too. Just goes to show that it takes more than a QB. I loved watching Marino, but he made only one SB (in his second season) and never sniffed another.

Cutler is mediocrity personified. Not the worst QB out there, nowhere near the best. He appears to have the physical tools to be among the best but isn't, so that is frustrating for Bears fans. As for his numbers, which others alluded to, Cutler's problems transcend his numbers. Those who have watched him for a long time know that he has had a knack for turning possible victory into certain defeat with some of the most boneheaded decisions any QB can make. Disclosure: I am neither a Bear fan nor a Bear hater; my kids root for the Bears, although they are mostly fair-weather fans.

[MerrittsMustache]

Many fair points here.

The Bears, indeed, have had lots of issues. And comparing anybody to Brady and the Patriots probably was silly on my part. Very good point on Brees, too. Just goes to show that it takes more than a QB. I loved watching Marino, but he made only one SB (in his second season) and never sniffed another.

Cutler is mediocrity personified. Not the worst QB out there, nowhere near the best. He appears to have the physical tools to be among the best but isn't, so that is frustrating for Bears fans. As for his numbers, which others alluded to, Cutler's problems transcend his numbers. Those who have watched him for a long time know that he has had a knack for turning possible victory into certain defeat with some of the most boneheaded decisions any QB can make. Disclosure: I am neither a Bear fan nor a Bear hater; my kids root for the Bears, although they are mostly fair-weather fans.

Cutler is not nearly as bad as many have made him out to be, but he hasn't been nearly as good as his talent suggests he should be. I honestly think that if the Bears had hired Bruce Arians in 2013, we'd view Cutler differently today. Cutler played one season in Chicago with a legit NFL OC (2015) and he had an efficient, low-TO season. Unfortunately, they only had 1 WR and a bad defense and the team went 6-10. It has never really all come together for him in Chicago. Does he deserve some of the blame? Of course. However, in terms of the Bears' primary issues in the last 5-6 seasons, Cutler ranks pretty far down the list.

[MU82]

Cutler is not nearly as bad as many have made him out to be, but he hasn't been nearly as good as his talent suggests he should be. I honestly think that if the Bears had hired Bruce Arians in 2013, we'd view Cutler differently today. Cutler played one season in Chicago with a legit NFL OC (2015) and he had an efficient, low-TO season. Unfortunately, they only had 1 WR and a bad defense and the team went 6-10. It has never really all come together for him in Chicago. Does he deserve some of the blame? Of course. However, in terms of the Bears' primary issues in the last 5-6 seasons, Cutler ranks pretty far down the list.

The last time I saw Cutler in person was when the Bears played the Panthers here in 2014. The Bears had the game well in hand and took a 21-7 lead behind Cutler, who was playing quite well. The Panthers got a little momentum, the Bears started tightening up and then, as predictably as a baby pooping in its diaper 2 hours after eating, Cutler threw a horrendous pass a mile over his receiver. The Panthers took the INT back 35 yards to set up the tying score and soon were cruising to victory. As I am a Panthers fan, I was quite pleased. My son was visiting and he lost the bet - he had to wear my Panthers jersey the entire next day. His astute analysis: "Effen Cutler."

Did Cutler "lose" the game for the Bears? Of course not. Forte had a key fumble, Gould missed a field goal that would have made it 24-7, etc, etc. And Cutler's numbers were fine (289 yds, 2 TD, 2 INT). But as has been his habit his entire career, he not only failed to make the big play he did the opposite - he made a big play for the Bears' opponent.

Put that propensity for big-moment failure together with his general dickishness, and I wouldn't want Cutler leading my team.

The other fun thing about that game: There were a lot of Bears fans in attendance, as is often the case in their road games. The guy in front of me was wearing a Bears Greg Olsen jersey. I asked him why he would want to remind himself and everybody else of that horrible trade. He just shrugged and said he liked the jersey. It wasn't as if he was an Olsen fan no matter what; he certainly wasn't cheering either of Olsen's 2 TDs that day! But I was, especially the winning score!

[MerrittsMustache]

The last time I saw Cutler in person was when the Bears played the Panthers here in 2014. The Bears had the game well in hand and took a 21-7 lead behind Cutler, who was playing quite well. The Panthers got a little momentum, the Bears started tightening up and then, as predictably as a baby pooping in its diaper 2 hours after eating, Cutler threw a horrendous pass a mile over his receiver. The Panthers took the INT back 35 yards to set up the tying score and soon were cruising to victory. As I am a Panthers fan, I was quite pleased. My son was visiting and he lost the bet - he had to wear my Panthers jersey the entire next day. His astute analysis: "Effen Cutler."

Did Cutler "lose" the game for the Bears? Of course not. Forte had a key fumble, Gould missed a field goal that would have made it 24-7, etc, etc. And Cutler's numbers were fine (289 yds, 2 TD, 2 INT). But as has been his habit his entire career, he not only failed to make the big play he did the opposite - he made a big play for the Bears' opponent.

Put that propensity for big-moment failure together with his general dickishness, and I wouldn't want Cutler leading my team.

I remember that game. Actually, here are the highlights...
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000406014/Week-5-Bears-vs-Panthers-highlights

If you go to the 2:50ish mark, you'll see that Cutler's pass was to Santonio Holmes who had a DE dropping back to cover him. Holmes got bumped off his route or else it would have been a 20+ yard gain. It's easy to point the finger at the QB because he threw the pass but it was the right read and a good enough pass but the timing was thrown off.

Cutler made more than his fair share of ill-advised passes but this example is a fan trying to make a play fit the narrative that Cutler throws bad INTs.