Quit Whining

[scout]

Just started following Marquette Basketball.  Can't understand uproar over this years team.  You have some nice players that are fun to watch.  If you were in the A10 you would be a powerhouse.  The Big East is extremely competitive this year.  You have a nice group of guards and forwards who are just a notch below the big east big boys. To me, you have a real fun team to watch Villanova, Butler and Creighton have too much right now.  Great win over Gtown.  Hang in there.  having 2 guards around 5:10 who are that good---fun along with your 6.5 type perimeter players.  They are all nice players.  Enjoy them.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think you are disagreeing about which team is better and that remains to be seen. I was more thinking about the notion that Buzz quit on the team. That would indicate his last team greatly underachieved. Based on preseason expectations that team certainly underachieved. However, I was pointing out that winning 9 conference games with that starting back court was an amazing accomplishment. This year's team certainly is more talented in the backcourt, but it  remains to be seen if it will win 9 conference games. Let me ask you this. Do you think Wojo would of won 9 conference games with Buzz's last team? If your answer is no than how can it be that Buzz quit on his last team?

I never bought into the "Buzz quit on his team" narrative. Buzz couldn't find a PG. Teams with great talent can be undone by lack of that one key position.

[4everwarriors]

Dis ain't no A-10, bro. We are Marquette, ai na?

[warriorchick]

Just started following Marquette Basketball.  Can't understand uproar over this years team.  You have some nice players that are fun to watch.  If you were in the A10 you would be a powerhouse.  The Big East is extremely competitive this year.  You have a nice group of guards and forwards who are just a notch below the big east big boys. To me, you have a real fun team to watch Villanova, Butler and Creighton have too much right now.  Great win over Gtown.  Hang in there.  having 2 guards around 5:10 who are that good---fun along with your 6.5 type perimeter players.  They are all nice players.  Enjoy them.

scout is my new favorite Scooper.

[Class71]

I am one of those old timers. I thought MU played better than I expected. And yes I also expect more from the seniors, especially when it comes to judgement and toughness. It is a shame because we are closer to winning theses games than I think most here believe. Yes the old guys expect more because the old MU teams lost only due to their level of talent, not judgement or toughness. We used to be junkyard dogs who could never shoot like this team but never question their heart. I like this current team and there is a lot of talent. The problems are there, however, and is frustrating. Yes old folks expect more because we know what commitment and effort is required to win at anything in life.

Look basketball is just a game.
 
The commitment and effort required to win, however,  is a profoundly important lesson we all need to learn. Set the bar high young lads your time to succeed is short.

[VegasWarrior77]

scout is my new favorite Scooper.

+1

[naginiF]

scout is my new favorite Scooper.

I was thinking the same +1 as Vegas.

Plus, it made me stop my gofundme giving functionality to Scoop to ban anyone with < 100 posts from posting within 48hrs of a loss.  Good work Scout.

[tower912]

Great.  This is turning  into the scout board.  Better than the N(ostradam)ers board.

[Stretchdeltsig]

I don't understand what this means. We will never be a Duke, UNC, UK, Kansas, etc when it comes to recruiting. So we have to do it other ways outside of elite recruits.

What resources does Wojo have that you would expect him to build a sustained winner/sweet 16 team/whatever your expectation is (from a crap-pile) in 3 years?

It was reported in Scoop a couple years ago that Marquette invests the second highest amount of money in the nation on its basketball program.

[jesmu84]

It was reported in Scoop a couple years ago that Marquette invests the second highest amount of money in the nation on its basketball program.

So you're talking pure financial backing from the university and zero other factors/variables into account. Got it.

Guess, from your perspective, any coach should be able to walk in here and with any recruits, achieve/exceed expectations of the entire fanbase.

[skianth16]

Gardner would get minutes, but even with his shortcomings Luke is a better two-way player than Ox ever was.

Even though I bet their stats are similar, Luke has maybe half the intensity and competitiveness that Ox had. Sure, he had plenty of plays that he didn't get back D because he had some... mobility issues, but in big games he wanted the ball and wanted to win. Definitely wasnt soft like Fischer.

Ox was a fun player to watch, and even the few games he played this summer in TBT he was still a favorite of mine to see play. Fischer just doesn't seem to have the same competitive drive that most athletes at this level do.

[tower912]

Don't forget that he pouted when he didn't get the ball.   

[vogue65]

Just started following Marquette Basketball.  Can't understand uproar over this years team.  You have some nice players that are fun to watch.  If you were in the A10 you would be a powerhouse.  The Big East is extremely competitive this year.  You have a nice group of guards and forwards who are just a notch below the big east big boys. To me, you have a real fun team to watch Villanova, Butler and Creighton have too much right now.  Great win over Gtown.  Hang in there.  having 2 guards around 5:10 who are that good---fun along with your 6.5 type perimeter players.  They are all nice players.  Enjoy them.

Right on baby, the issue is on not being the best A10 team in the league.

[muguru]

As one of the more vocal posters around I feel like I should chime in here. What bothers me more than anything is people thinking we can't have high expectations. Why the hell shouldn't we?? It also bothers me to no end the people that are content with where the program is right now. That tells me those people never played sports, or if they did, just did it for fun, and have NO level of competitiveness whatsoever. That just baffles me. Every fan, should NOT be okay with a loss, ever. Yes, they happen, I get that, but to just "accept it" shrug your shoulders and instantly move on?? I will NEVER understand that thinking. Ever. Whether you voice your frustrations here, or do it privately, you SHOULD be angry, you should be frustrated, you should be wondering if this program will ever achieve the levels it was at not that long ago.

You can say it's "entitled cry babies" all you want, but look at attendance, it has dropped off substantially. Students aren't showing up, and if progress is measured by adding a few more wins year to year...well that's just small time thinking. is that really what the Marquette program has become?? Where winning isn't that important?? As long as we have a nice program, graduate the kids and have a good public image, we are satisfied?? That's a pathetic way of thinking. Whether any of us want to admit it or not, College basketball is a business, it's about the bottom line. That bottom line isn't achieved, people get fired. Those that think it's "okay" that there has been no postseason whatsoever the last 3 years(nevermind no NCAA bids), should go root for Duhpaul. You'll get plenty of no postseason there.

I get Buzz stripped the roster when he left, but so what?? Programs have turned worse around quicker. My biggest problem right now is with Wojo as a Coach..how many truly big wins has he had in 3 years?? Okay he beat UW last year when they were at their worst, and Providence last year when they were ranked...big f'n deal. Bottom line under Wojo, they have not had truly any big wins of signifcance in 3 years(a lot of times, those happen just by accident), and he has NO idea apparently how to hide his players deficiencies or play to his player's strengths. Buzz was VERY good at that. he could hide weaknesses, and he would exploit other teams weaknesses. I like Wojo's recruiting, but that has to equate to W's...and they just haven't been there, that's a problem, and should be a problem for EVERYONE, but apparently it's not.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Who says people aren't angry after a loss and that we are content with where the program is now? I know I am and I'm sure Brew and the other "sunshine pumpers" are too. But it is possible to be angry and discontent without attacking 18 to 23 year old kids, dipping into hyperbole, demanding a man should be fired for from his job, and making declarations about how we are terrible and will never win another game. The emotions are the same, they are just channeled differently. And that's the important thing to remember. I'm guilty of getting annoyed at the doom and gloom posters but I know their posts are coming from the same emotion I'm feeling and the same desire to make Marquette great again....man even in this context that line make me feel slimy. The one thing I wish I wouldn't see is bashing the players. Critique their games sure, but not in a way that attacks them personally. I know I'm guilty of doing that sometimes.

[brewcity77]

As one of the more vocal posters around I feel like I should chime in here. What bothers me more than anything is people thinking we can't have high expectations. Why the hell shouldn't we?? It also bothers me to no end the people that are content with where the program is right now.

Who said we can't have high expectations?

That tells me those people never played sports, or if they did, just did it for fun, and have NO level of competitiveness whatsoever. That just baffles me.

Not at all true.

Every fan, should NOT be okay with a loss, ever. Yes, they happen, I get that, but to just "accept it" shrug your shoulders and instantly move on?? I will NEVER understand that thinking. Ever. Whether you voice your frustrations here, or do it privately, you SHOULD be angry, you should be frustrated, you should be wondering if this program will ever achieve the levels it was at not that long ago.

What, so everyone should always be winners and always get a trophy? Give me a break. And how will your anger, frustration, and crying after a loss change anything?

You can say it's "entitled cry babies" all you want, but look at attendance, it has dropped off substantially. Students aren't showing up,

Attendance is down across college basketball and sports in general.

and if progress is measured by adding a few more wins year to year...well that's just small time thinking. is that really what the Marquette program has become??

If our program added two wins per year starting now, that would make us a perennial 30-win team in 5 years. Is that small-time thinking?

Where winning isn't that important?? As long as we have a nice program, graduate the kids and have a good public image, we are satisfied?? That's a pathetic way of thinking.

Okay, here's where you are really off base. Marquette is, first and foremost, a university. Its responsibility is to grow and shape young minds, to educate, and to turn out quality individuals. This is done by embracing the Cura Personalis mindset. I think we all want MU to win at the highest level, I think we all want to see our program at the level of Villanova, but if you sacrifice your ideals to get there, what's it really worth? Cheating to win, taking the low road, there's more to life than W's and L's. I don't want a program that gets there like that.

Whether any of us want to admit it or not, College basketball is a business, it's about the bottom line. That bottom line isn't achieved, people get fired. Those that think it's "okay" that there has been no postseason whatsoever the last 3 years(nevermind no NCAA bids), should go root for Duhpaul. You'll get plenty of no postseason there.

And again, no one is saying this. You're just making crap up. We all want to win. Some of us also care that we do in a way that makes us proud of Marquette as a University, not just as an athletic team.

I get Buzz stripped the roster when he left, but so what?? Programs have turned worse around quicker.

I have addressed that numerous times. Would you be happy to have Villanova's program? Would that put a smile on your face and a boner in your pants? To be defending national champs, ranked in the top-5, and whooping darn near everyone you play? It took Jay Wright 4 years to make the tournament and 16 years to win a title. Yes, you can quick fix your way to the NCAAs, but I don't think anyone at Marquette wants to build a program that has the goal of getting to the tournament. They want a program that can sustain itself over the years and have the potential to make deep NCAA runs and challenge for titles. As of yesterday, no teams in the top-10 had a coach with fewer than 4 years current job tenure (Alford at UCLA, but has 22 years experience).

My biggest problem right now is with Wojo as a Coach..how many truly big wins has he had in 3 years?? Okay he beat UW last year when they were at their worst, and Providence last year when they were ranked...big f'n deal.

Well yeah, when you dismiss all the big wins, it's easy to say he doesn't have any big wins. He has 5 wins over NCAA Tournament teams.

Bottom line under Wojo, they have not had truly any big wins of signifcance in 3 years(a lot of times, those happen just by accident), and he has NO idea apparently how to hide his players deficiencies or play to his player's strengths. Buzz was VERY good at that. he could hide weaknesses, and he would exploit other teams weaknesses. I like Wojo's recruiting, but that has to equate to W's...and they just haven't been there, that's a problem, and should be a problem for EVERYONE, but apparently it's not.

We have a top-20 in the country offense, yet he isn't playing to his player's strengths? This year's offense has a higher efficiency rating than Buzz ever had here. So your claim is completely, patently false. The defense isn't there, but our best defenders are freshmen and sophomores, and defense corrolates with length, which we have none of (but will have next year).

At the end of the day, the simple truth is that you are going to cry and whine every time we lose like it's your last night on earth. Anything less than a national title every single year will be a complete, abject failure. It's a sad state of affairs, and completely bewilders me that you are over the age of 4 with that type of mindset. Losing is a part of life. It builds character. And it makes the winning all the more sweet. Hell, even Villanova lost this past week.

Right now, we are 10-5 (so we're winning more than losing) after a 20-win season. Grow up. Grow a pair. Of course, you won't. You'll just wait until the next loss and toss all your toys out of the crib just like you do every time we lose.

[Stretchdeltsig]

So you're talking pure financial backing from the university and zero other factors/variables into account. Got it.

Guess, from your perspective, any coach should be able to walk in here and with any recruits, achieve/exceed expectations of the entire fanbase.

Darn right.o

[tower912]

How many teams go undefeated?    How many teams win championships?    How many have a realistic chance?    As a competitor and a coach, I usually have/had a pretty good idea of how good my team was/is/is going to be.    Now as a coach, my job is to get the talent on the team to play to the best of its ability.     Sometimes, in good years, that is good enough to go undefeated.   Those are rare years.   More often, you know if everything falls right, you can compete with anybody.    Those are fun years, too.   Good record, good kids, a couple  of losses, but more good than bad.    Sometimes, you know from the first practice that the whole season is going to be about teaching and getting the most out of a bad team.   A win is for a kid to make a play for the first time.    Field a ball and make a throw.   Catch a pass and get off a decent shot, whether it goes in or not.     Those seasons are tougher but have their own rewards.

The key is to realistically look at the hand you are dealt and set your expectations based on reality.

The reality of this team is that it has a 3rd year coach with his second full recruiting class.    It has a talented but unbalanced and thin  roster that can shoot the ball, but isn't really set up to be good defensively.   Too short in too many positions, too slow at others.     So, some games the shooting and scoring will be enough, some games the defensive liabilities will be too much to overcome.     

My expectation is for improvement as a program.   That this season, like the previous two, are building blocks.    Laying the foundation for when this program returns to being one of the bullies in the Big East.   I'm still not 100% sold on Wojo, but I can now see the outlines of the plan.    This team is not a championship team.   But the seeds are being planted for one down the road.   

It is the difference between being able to see the big picture and take the long view and being all about the instant gratification.   Maturity and immaturity as a fan.     

[Dr. Blackheart]

How do you folks feel about Fitz's tweet bashing?

https://mobile.twitter.com/DanielJohnFitz/status/817951410415345665

[tower912]

One of my recurring criticisms of this team is the lack of senior leadership.   So, I agree with his tweet.    But that doesn't mean this team is under performing my expectations.    The freshmen being better than I expected is roughly offsetting the lack of a go-to upperclassman.   Which bodes well for coming seasons.   

[g0lden3agle]

How do you folks feel about Fitz's tweet bashing?

https://mobile.twitter.com/DanielJohnFitz/status/817951410415345665

I wouldn't really call that a "bashing".  The guys on the board saying "time for Luke to graduate" are bashing him.  "Luke needs to figure it out and quick" is a realistic outlook on what it's going to take to turn this team around.

His tweet later in the thread reads: "@Matt_Velazquez he's got it in him to make this slump a turning point. Being a senior, time is ticking. #MUBB". "  Overall I think he's being very reasonable with his tweets.

[mu03eng]

While I generally agree the fact that Scoop can be a heavy concentration of whiners after a loss, I do think there is some legitimate reason for being upset. I get the argument that they are not under performing expectations, they are about where I expected them to be. However, like I said in the Scrambled Eggs podcast (shameless plug), I do miss the times when Marquette was good. What I mean by that is feeling confident going into each game that we had a good shot of winning regardless of opponent. I recognize that we're rebuilding and the product is better now than it was Buzz's last season, but that doesn't take away the frustration of having been a consistently good team for years and now being an average team at best.

I think we're on the right path and should stay the course but that doesn't mean we can't be very frustrated by where we are. And again, winning cures a lot of ills, so if the MU wants to silence the grumbles, putting a winning product on the court.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

While I generally agree the fact that Scoop can be a heavy concentration of whiners after a loss, I do think there is some legitimate reason for being upset. I get the argument that they are not under performing expectations, they are about where I expected them to be. However, like I said in the Scrambled Eggs podcast (shameless plug), I do miss the times when Marquette was good. What I mean by that is feeling confident going into each game that we had a good shot of winning regardless of opponent. I recognize that we're rebuilding and the product is better now than it was Buzz's last season, but that doesn't take away the frustration of having been a consistently good team for years and now being an average team at best.

I think we're on the right path and should stay the course but that doesn't mean we can't be very frustrated by where we are. And again, winning cures a lot of ills, so if the MU wants to silence the grumbles, putting a winning product on the court.

This is well said...particularly feeling like we had a chance to win every game.

I am frustrated not with the result this year (w/l record) but how its occurred in many games.  What used to make MU special for decades was effort/toughness/defense.  Just a small improvement here could get us to the tourney because of our really strong O.  Our defense has taken us out of so many games - usually not that far into the second half.

I said this earlier, but if the team that played SHU showed up more often I like our chances for the rest of the season.  We need Luke and JJJ to do what Fitz is asking.

[Marcus92]

Brew and Tower, appreciate your efforts to keep a rational perspective on the fanaticism of fandom. Great posts. This argument wears me out.

Ultimately, it comes down to one thing: Wojo, like any new coach, deserves 4-5 years to show us what he's got. But some will never agree with even that basic premise. They believe that anything short of a deep NCAA run is a failure as a season. They hold Wojo to the standard of success that Al established, without giving him the same chance to build a program — because they refuse to believe the legendary MU basketball program should ever need to be rebuilt.

If you have any amount of patience and see potential for what this team could be in a season or two, you're only making excuses for a bunch of underachieving losers. Just win, baby. Anything less is a sign that you don't really care about winning at all.

While I've certainly found the past few seasons frustrating as a fan, I've also enjoyed a lot of great moments and am truly excited about where the program is headed. And there's a lot of season yet to be played.

[MU82]

It took Jay Wright 4 years to make the tournament and 16 years to win a title.

Well yeah, when you dismiss all the big wins, it's easy to say he doesn't have any big wins. He has 5 wins over NCAA Tournament teams.

brewski ...

Many folks here just don't want to acknowledge that Jay Wright fact. They either think Wright was an immediate sensation at Nova or they simply choose to ignore it because it hurts their thesis. They think Wojo should have stepped in on Day 1 and been Year 5 Wright. They don't want to acknowledge that Coach K and Calhoun and some of the other all-time greats needed time to build top programs. They say things like, "There was a reason he spent more than a decade as an assistant" without acknowledging that Izzo and Williams did the same.

And then, if we point out the facts, it means we are apologists who don't want to win.

Regarding the second statement, that was my immediate reaction. It was like the time Vikings players said, "Our run defense actually was pretty good if you take away those three runs by Sanders." But their inability to take away the three 60+ yard runs is why they got crushed.

So yes, by all means, take away our wins against Providence, Butler, Wisconsin, Creighton, Georgia and LSU, and Wojo has no good wins.

Given that the Va Tech Buzzards have followed their win over a depleted Duke team by getting blown out in consecutive games against NC State and Fla State, I guess Buzz doesn't really have that win over Duke, right?

Sometimes, folks here crack me up without trying.