ESPN Insider? Big East final recruiting grades

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think bringing in Carlino speaks more towards how Wojo feels about Derrick, than it does about Dawson. If he felt comfortable with Derrick, why replace your senior leader who played over 30 min a game last year?

Yes. But the point is that this makes it appear as if he doesn't want Dawson or Duane for that matter running the point.

More importantly, what Wojo does this season does NOTHING to prove anything about playing time last year. We all agree that PG play was an issue. Carlino is an immediate fix to that problem.

[Dawson Rental]

Yes. But the point is that this makes it appear as if he doesn't want Dawson or Duane for that matter running the point.

More importantly, what Wojo does this season does NOTHING to prove anything about playing time last year. We all agree that PG play was an issue. Carlino is an immediate fix to that problem.

We hope.  After last year, we all deserve it.

[NersEllenson]

Derrick was one of the many reasons we were bad. The only position that we were good enough to compete with the big boys was the 5 with Oxtule. At the 1-4 we were overmatched by just about every quality team.

Here's the problem. Everyone here accepts that Derrick would be a better backup PG than starter, so we are all very happy Wojo got Carlino. There's a thread that has to do with MU's recruiting class, which Derrick obviously is not a part of but Carlino is. Somehow you find it necessary to take yet another dig at a 20 year old who works his ass off and does the best he can at what he is asked to do. It's absolutely classless of you. There was absolutely zero reason to bring that into this discussion. Ridiculous.

You and your superior basketball knowledge like to talk about shooting percentages, particularly free throw and three point shooting percentages, as the reason that Dawson is better than Derrick. If that's what makes a player worthy of playing time and determines who is better, how is Steve Novak unable to find the court? The guy shoots 90% at the free throw line and is the player that Tracy McGrady, someone who has seen plenty of high level basketball, has gone on record to say is the best shooter ever. Why can't he find the court? He shoots better than (just about, at least) everybody in the NBA, but he can't crack a 9 man rotation in Canada. It's weird. Crazy. The coach must not have a clue.

You and your high level of basketball experience also love to point to one single game (Georgetown) to show Dawson is better and deserved more time than Derrick. Dawson had a great game and I'm glad we beat them and that he contributed how he did. He also played AWFUL in the majority of his minutes throughout the entire rest of the year. Let's play your fun game. When Derrick Wilson was a freshman we went into the Kohl Center and ON THE DAY OF THE GAME Derrick was told he would be starting. Jordan Taylor was a preseason All American and Wisconsin rarely EVER loses at home (I need to give the backstory because I don't think you are intelligent enough to understand on your own). In that game Jordan Taylor scored 13 points (most of which came in the desperate late game run and 5 of them at the FT line) with 2 assists to 5 turnovers. Do you think a junior year Junior Cadougan would've limited Taylor to those numbers? If Taylor has his average game we probably lose that game. So despite the fact that Derrick rarely played that year, we MUST conclude that Derrick as a freshman was better than Junior was his junior year, because the one game Derrick saw major minutes he played better than Cadougan. There's logic for ya!

Can't wait to see you tell everyone how stupid these arguments are. And why can't I wait? Because I AGREE! These arguments couldn't possibly be anymore dumb! And they're the exact arguments you try to make for Dawson playing more than Derrick. Clueless.

Everyone here wants Dawson to succeed, but most are intelligent enough to realize that despite not being great, Derrick was the best option at PG last year. You somehow openly root against and bash a 20 year old who plays for the school you say to be a fan of just so you can have fun on a message board. Awesome life man. Keep up the quality work.

LOL - No, Derrick was not the best option last year...it it got proved out over and over and over..no wins over Top 25 teams.  9-9 in watered down Big East.  Historically bad numbers at his position.  You same 5 guys keep harping on how it is so definitively true that Derrick was the best option....and thus the debate continues...and the negative comments on Derrick...I don't "enjoy" stating the facts of his performance..and that it wasn't good at all...but it is factual.  Still waiting for one of you to find another PG in the last 20 years who played 75% of all available minutes in a season and put up worse numbers...been 2 weeks since I threw that out to you guys, and so far none of you can find one...because I'll tell you...there wasn't one in the last 20 years worse...

You guys keep saying there wasn't a better option...yet Buzz had all kinds of better options last season, that he didn't choose to maximize.  He played arguably his two most limited talent guys the MOST minutes of anybody on the team...Derrick and Jake...meanwhile:

Mayo got 7 minutes less per game than Jake...
Juan started and played more minutes on average than Burton - who it is clear to anyone with a shred of basketball knowledge...is a HUGE talent...and probably will be MUs best player since Wade..
Gardner wasn't made a starter..and could have been given roughly 7-8 more minutes per game..

Jamil had the "luxury" of playing alongside a PG who couldn't/wouldn't shoot a 3...and 2 guard, who couldn't make/create a 2pt FG, a 3, in Juan who lost all confidence and was no threat to score...and a 5, in Chris Otule, who was a serviceable 5...yet doesn't much matter when you play a 1, 2 and 3 who are so limited..

And PS (perhaps the dumbest point you've tried to make in a history of many) - How is Steve Novak not able to find the court as a good FT and 3 point shooter?? Because he's in the freaking NBA where he competes with the world's best players for playing time....not a guy who shoots 7% from the 3 point line and 43% from the FT line...

Somehow I just feel a guy who plays the PG position who shoots 3 point shots at 4 times a better percentage than his upperclassmen teammate, and shoots practically twice as good from the FT line...could...just perhaps...maybe, just maybe....be a better option for the position.  Oh..but Dawson would turn the ball over exactly .6 more times per 40 minute game than Derrick.  Yikes.  And defensively, he yields .003 more points per 100 possessions than Derrick good for 3rd best on the team.

[tower912]

Done with this.  Where's that 'ignore' button?   

[nathanziarek]

"I was just kidding!!   Well, not really..."

Seriously dude, your inability to talk about anything else is ruining whatever reputation you built up on this board.

Um ... that is his reputation. He will not be happy until everyone admits that Derrick was the worst college basketball player ever AND that he said it first, loudest and most. Even then, he won't be able to prevent himself from gloating. All we can do is ignore it.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Ners, I started to write a long winding post pointing out the plethora of broken logic that is found within your latest rant. I decided that I didn't care. What your opinion or mine is of Derrick/Dawson really doesn't matter in the slightest. All the possible arguments have been made and no one is changing their mind. And because it is no longer last season, it can NEVER be proven one way or the other who was correct.

There is one thing that I am still very curious about. I have now asked you three times. Tower asked you once. And Sultan has asked you once or twice. You have elected not to answer so far.

Why is it so hard for you to accept that 5 random dudes on the internet have a different opinion than you on the Derrick/Dawson playing time debate? None of us are basketball experts, all of us know more than the casual fan, we watched the same games, we have analyzed the same stats, and we have come to different conclusions. Why is that so difficult to accept?

[77ncaachamps]

If Wojo can get DW to shoot 45% or better from the field (easy to do. stop missing the bunnies), shoot 30% from 3pt, and shoot 60% from FT, his nickname should be "Jesus".

[NotAnAlum]

Yes. But the point is that this makes it appear as if he doesn't want Dawson or Duane for that matter running the point.

I think the Carlino offer was more about getting a proven 3 pt shooter than it was about not having confidence in Dawson or Duane to handle the point.  Derrick was woefully inadequate BUT more importantly Jake is Gone.  So is Jamil so there really is no one on the roster who has proven they can hit the 3 at all.  I think if Carlino was simply a 2 guard he still gets the offer in a heart beat.  With his Duke background Wojo simply must have 3 point shooters whatever position they play.  I would expect to see Duane or Dawson on the court a lot with Carlino effectively playing 2 PGs

[MU82]

I think the Carlino offer was more about getting a proven 3 pt shooter than it was about not having confidence in Dawson or Duane to handle the point.  Derrick was woefully inadequate BUT more importantly Jake is Gone.  So is Jamil so there really is no one on the roster who has proven they can hit the 3 at all.  I think if Carlino was simply a 2 guard he still gets the offer in a heart beat.  With his Duke background Wojo simply must have 3 point shooters whatever position they play.  I would expect to see Duane or Dawson on the court a lot with Carlino effectively playing 2 PGs

Duane shot 55% from the arc as a HS senior. HS isn't college, but please. Fifty-five freakin' percent!!!! Unless his entire senior season was a fluke, the kid has to see the court ... a lot!

[GGGG]

Duane played in a relatively weak conference and had one of the top 10 players in the country as a center to draw defenders.  I think 55% really has to be taken with a grain of salt.  We'll know soon enough how that translates to college.

[NersEllenson]

Ners, I started to write a long winding post pointing out the plethora of broken logic that is found within your latest rant. I decided that I didn't care. What your opinion or mine is of Derrick/Dawson really doesn't matter in the slightest. All the possible arguments have been made and no one is changing their mind. And because it is no longer last season, it can NEVER be proven one way or the other who was correct.

There is one thing that I am still very curious about. I have now asked you three times. Tower asked you once. And Sultan has asked you once or twice. You have elected not to answer so far.

Why is it so hard for you to accept that 5 random dudes on the internet have a different opinion than you on the Derrick/Dawson playing time debate? None of us are basketball experts, all of us know more than the casual fan, we watched the same games, we have analyzed the same stats, and we have come to different conclusions. Why is that so difficult to accept?

The talk of twisted logic is pretty funny TAMU.  When you guys stop trying to argue that playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end due to one player's severe limitations - does not majorly hurt a basketball team - particularly when that guy is your PG...then I could accept your different conclusion.

But..to try to answer your question - It seems simply implausible that a basketball fan/one with a good understanding of the game...could ever arrive at the conclusion you guys have drawn.  Quite frankly, what I really feel has happened is that you guys had Derrick's back so early in the season, and felt he'd improve, as would the team....and then when it didn't happen...you guys simply couldn't acknowledge the flaws in your thinking.

When you make an argument that a guy who was historically bad at his position, is the best option on a team...when the back up was given scraps of inconsistent minutes...but when given one good/fair comparable opportunity as the vet in front of him...he stepped up and played very well...while shooting 4x better from the 3 point line, and virtually twice as good from the FT line..for the season....and has to be defended everywhere on the court...and most could admit...seemed to help the offense flow much better when he was in the game...just really hard to see how you and others could arrive at your conclusions..

And of course..you guys already are trying to back off of if the team is better next year, and Derrick is in a significantly reduced role...that, that won't be evidence of him having been the primary problem with last year's team...just lends itself to being so caught up in a not wanting to admit having arrived at a bad conclusion/observation/opinion drawn from last season...

End of the day, 85% of this board wants DW to play less than 16 minutes as a senior next season...that says all that needs to be said, along with Wojo going out and recruiting a 1-year rental at the same position as his seasoned senior, incumbent, vet.

Above it all...Buzz Williams was the biggest problem with last year's team...period.  How he choose to coach it, and allocate playing time...that was all on him..and rests at his feet.  Derrick and Jake obviously gave their best, tried their hardest, are great kids....but neither one had any business playing more minutes than any other guys on the team.

[Wojo'sMojo]

Duane played in a relatively weak conference and had one of the top 10 players in the country as a center to draw defenders.  I think 55% really has to be taken with a grain of salt.  We'll know soon enough how that translates to college.

He still had to make the shots and I'm sure he helped open things up for Diamond as well. Also, Stone wasn't one of the top ten players in the country that year. He is top ten in his recruiting class, there's a big difference.

[MU82]

Duane played in a relatively weak conference and had one of the top 10 players in the country as a center to draw defenders.  I think 55% really has to be taken with a grain of salt.  We'll know soon enough how that translates to college.

I agree and said as much. But either one can shoot or one can't, and if you make 55% of your shots from 20 feet in game action, you can shoot. Far too many players can't make 55% of their free throws, including many in the NBA.

I remember years ago the first guy who bowled three perfect games in league play. His score later was dismissed because the lanes were too oily or had the wrong kind of oil or some kind of issue. The great bowler Earl Anthony said, "I don't care if the lanes were coated in mayonnaise. A 900 series is incredible."

I don't care if Duane was playing at a low level. He had to make those shots, and 55% is incredible.

[GGGG]

And of course..you guys already are trying to back off of if the team is better next year, and Derrick is in a significantly reduced role...that, that won't be evidence of him having been the primary problem with last year's team...just lends itself to being so caught up in a not wanting to admit having arrived at a bad conclusion/observation/opinion drawn from last season...

Cmon Ners....seriously how can a Marquette graduate have such faulty logic?

The fact that some of us believe that Derrick Wilson was the best option last year has NOTHING TO DO with whether or not the team will be better if he plays a reduced role next year.  The two situations are not connected at all.

It's such faulty logic because the two situations are not apples to apples.  First of all, we have a completely new point guard in Matt Carlino who is likely going to get the bulk of the minutes.  HE WASN'T ON LAST YEAR'S TEAM!  Second, Duane Wilson will be around, and HE DIDN'T PLAY LAST YEAR.  And finally, I expect John Dawson to improve much more from his first to second year than Derrick Wilson will from his third to fourth year.

Just get this through your head.  What happens NEXT year has absolutely no bearing on what happened LAST year.  Stop making faulty and illogical arguments...not to mention cherry picking stats that support your POV, etc. etc. etc.

[GGGG]

I agree and said as much. But either one can shoot or one can't, and if you make 55% of your shots from 20 feet in game action, you can shoot. Far too many players can't make 55% of their free throws, including many in the NBA.

I remember years ago the first guy who bowled three perfect games in league play. His score later was dismissed because the lanes were too oily or had the wrong kind of oil or some kind of issue. The great bowler Earl Anthony said, "I don't care if the lanes were coated in mayonnaise. A 900 series is incredible."

I don't care if Duane was playing at a low level. He had to make those shots, and 55% is incredible.

I will wait and see if he does it in a college game before getting real excited about it.  High school is high school.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The talk of twisted logic is pretty funny TAMU.  When you guys stop trying to argue that playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end due to one player's severe limitations - does not majorly hurt a basketball team - particularly when that guy is your PG...then I could accept your different conclusion.

We do think it majorly hurt our team. PG play was one of the worst parts, maybe the worst. No one has argued any different.

But..to try to answer your question - It seems simply implausible that a basketball fan/one with a good understanding of the game...could ever arrive at the conclusion you guys have drawn.

Well better start plausing it. Cause some of us have. None of us are basketball experts. But none of us are basketball dunces either.

Quite frankly, what I really feel has happened is that you guys had Derrick's back so early in the season, and felt he'd improve, as would the team....and then when it didn't happen...you guys simply couldn't acknowledge the flaws in your thinking.

Go back and read my posts early in the season. Preseason, I stated repeatedly that PG play was going to be our number one issue. During the non-con season I repeatedly said Derrick could not make an entry pass and was the main thing ailing our team. Then, I got to see all the other options. Duane redshirtted, Jamil was awful at the point, Dawson was limited at best, and Mayo was not a PG. Derrick, IMHO, was the best of a very bad situation. I never agreed with the 32 mpg he got. It was clear to me that Derrick needed someone to spell him for at least 15 mins a game. I would have changed that if I were the coach.

When you make an argument that a guy who was historically bad at his position, is the best option on a team...when the back up was given scraps of inconsistent minutes...but when given one good/fair comparable opportunity as the vet in front of him...he stepped up and played very well...while shooting 4x better from the 3 point line, and virtually twice as good from the FT line..for the season....and has to be defended everywhere on the court...and most could admit...seemed to help the offense flow much better when he was in the game...just really hard to see how you and others could arrive at your conclusions..

We have given our reasons for this multiple times. They are sound reasons based in basketball logic. Most of your arguments are as well. We have simply come to two different conclusions.

And of course..you guys already are trying to back off of if the team is better next year, and Derrick is in a significantly reduced role...that, that won't be evidence of him having been the primary problem with last year's team...just lends itself to being so caught up in a not wanting to admit having arrived at a bad conclusion/observation/opinion drawn from last season...

I'm not backing off that. I think we will be better next season. PG play was terrible last season. We went out and got an established vet to fill our need at that position. If we can overcome our lack of size (or add a Darius Leonard or Tashawn Thomas) we could be a tournament team next season. We will get better because Derrick will be a backup PG again. That doesn't mean that Derrick shouldn't have been the starter last season. There is no logical connection there.

End of the day, 85% of this board wants DW to play less than 16 minutes as a senior next season...that says all that needs to be said,

Yes, and I'm one of them. I think he will get between 10-14 minutes. Carlino is better than Derrick. I am hoping that Duane is also better than Derrick. We don't need Derrick to start anymore. That poll does nothing to prove that Derrick wasn't the best option last season. I bet if you created the same poll about Dawson, ~85% would think that Dawson gets 16 minutes or less too.

along with Wojo going out and recruiting a 1-year rental at the same position as his seasoned senior, incumbent, vet.

Again, how does this prove Derrick wasn't the best option last season? This proves that PG play was bad last season. Which we ALL agree on. I also remember you being one of the loudest naysayers about Wojo recruiting Carlino.

Above it all...Buzz Williams was the biggest problem with last year's team...period.  How he choose to coach it, and allocate playing time...that was all on him..and rests at his feet.  Derrick and Jake obviously gave their best, tried their hardest, are great kids....but neither one had any business playing more minutes than any other guys on the team.

I'd agree with this. But I blame Buzz more for the lack of recruiting enough quality options at point. And for, for better or worse, driving away some players over the years that could have helped us this season. If you want to criticize his coaching, that is fine. Just remember, he coached the EXACT same way in his previous five winning seasons. He chose to stick to what he knew instead of adapting. Some coaches are like that. Personally, I wish he would have fit his strategy more to the personnel that he had. He chose to double down on his own style. It failed.

[Spotcheck Billy]

[The Equalizer]

Cmon Ners....seriously how can a Marquette graduate have such faulty logic?

The fact that some of us believe that Derrick Wilson was the best option last year has NOTHING TO DO with whether or not the team will be better if he plays a reduced role next year.  The two situations are not connected at all.

It's such faulty logic because the two situations are not apples to apples.  First of all, we have a completely new point guard in Matt Carlino who is likely going to get the bulk of the minutes.  HE WASN'T ON LAST YEAR'S TEAM!  Second, Duane Wilson will be around, and HE DIDN'T PLAY LAST YEAR.  And finally, I expect John Dawson to improve much more from his first to second year than Derrick Wilson will from his third to fourth year.

Just get this through your head.  What happens NEXT year has absolutely no bearing on what happened LAST year.  Stop making faulty and illogical arguments...not to mention cherry picking stats that support your POV, etc. etc. etc.

What happens next year may very well explain what happened last year. 

If Carlino plays the majority of minutes ahead of Derrick and we then show overall team improvment, then you certainly can't rule out the possibility that last year's troubles were because Derrick received the majority of minutes at PG.

Nobody can prove it as the only cause, but you can't rule it out, either. 

[The Equalizer]

I'd agree with this. But I blame Buzz more for the lack of recruiting enough quality options at point. And for, for better or worse, driving away some players over the years that could have helped us this season. If you want to criticize his coaching, that is fine. Just remember, he coached the EXACT same way in his previous five winning seasons. He chose to stick to what he knew instead of adapting. Some coaches are like that. Personally, I wish he would have fit his strategy more to the personnel that he had. He chose to double down on his own style. It failed.

This, more than anything else, should end all the slobbering comments about what an outstanding coach he was.

He rode the success of some outstanding players.  Without oustdanding players, we weren't even an NIT team.  We won despite Buzz, not because of him.

[GGGG]

What happens next year may very well explain what happened last year. 

If Carlino plays the majority of minutes ahead of Derrick and we then show overall team improvment, then you certainly can't rule out the possibility that last year's troubles were because Derrick received the majority of minutes at PG.

No the issue has always been who was the better option last year.  Nothing that happens this next year will impact that.

[GGGG]

This, more than anything else, should end all the slobbering comments about what an outstanding coach he was.

He rode the success of some outstanding players.  Without oustdanding players, we weren't even an NIT team.  We won despite Buzz, not because of him.

That's silly.  Good coaches can have bad years.

[tower912]

Equalizer, bad coaches don't have a 60-30 five year stretch in the Big East with a regular season title.   Bad coaches don't go S-16, S-16, E-8.   Your dislike of Buzz was evident from day 1.   To argue that MU had that kind of run despite Buzz and not because of him is just silly.   This past year was frustrating.    It does nothing to diminish the previous 5 years, just like having Carlino and a healthy Duane Wilson on next year's team does nothing to change last year's PG situation.