COVID-19 (f/k/a "the Coronavirus")

[pacearrow02]

No, I'm saying your graphic is a crap way of analyzing and representing the data, and if taken as fact does not support your assertions/stance whatsoever. But you already knew that.

The administration is doing nothing. We have no policy. The task force is being ignored, and some local governors are intentionally instituting policies that will lead to deaths.

The fact is, if what is currently going on in places like Hidalgo county, TX, where the only way you get a hospital bed is if someone else dies, and they are overrun with deaths, was happening in the wealthy and white communities, we'd have a massive response and nationwide shutdowns. Instead, we are just letting people die. Apparently, not all lives matter.

Not sure how mortality rate broken down by age is crap, but if you say so.

This is a race thing now?!?!  What is happening

[Hards Alumni]

“....Don’t seem to be the most intelligent”.  Not sure that’s fair, either way I believe all along I think it was the responsibility of businesses and local leaders (mayors and govs) to mandate or not mandate masks.

The phases and timeline of Covid infections have been all over the map so to institute the mask requirement from a federal level I don’t think would have worked any better.  In reality it’s not until people become legitimately scared that the infection has taken hold in their community that the compliance to mask wearing goes up.  And those local decisions should be left for local business and elected leadership.

With that said, people are still going to do what they feel they have the right to do.  Right or wrong, that’s America.

Oh, it's fair.  It's much nicer than they deserve.  A federal mask requirement would have been extremely effective.  Trump supporters get their marching orders, and the 'others' do it because it actually makes sense.

As for local decisions, why is the Republican governor of Georgia suing the city of Atlanta over its mask requirement?  So much for local mandates, aina?

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Thanks for the calm reasoned response, I mean that.

I personally struggle with the idea of accepting 30-40,000 annual influenza deaths combined with the possibility of 40-50,000 annual COVID deaths (once vaccine is available) as an acceptable new normal.  The mitigation steps put into place the last 6 months seem to be working fairly well when followed and I think we all need to seriously start considering what the future looks like as it relates to going to stores, eating at restaurants, going to ball games, visiting high risk loved ones in nursing homes, etc.

The bar has been set the last few months that it’s not just deaths we’re trying to prevent, it’s simply people getting sick.

Unless of course.  This feverish reaction and heavy breathing regarding Covid has more to do with it being an election year then it does about protecting our most vulnerable and our communities health as a whole.

I like to think we haven’t fallen that far as a country though.

What's acceptable isn't really a debate, its what happens.  I don't know what COVID looks like post vaccine...I suspect once one is here, people are going to return to something closer to what it was like.

If you think the reaction is an election year thing, you need to read deeper.  Look at Open Table reservations, look at hours worked, look at movement via phones...uncontrolled spread is a negative for all of those. 

Why do people care about how many are sick?  Because we can't actually measure the level of spread - so you are catching the visible/symptomatic (mostly).  So if cases go up that means prevalence in a community goes up.  Which means hospitalizations go up. Which means deaths goes up.  This is happening in all the areas that claimed it wouldn't. Also if my community has massive spread, I can't keep my plant open without disruption...My hospital isnt available to treat me (or I'm too scared to get treated)....etc

Of course it's peoples behaviors that are driving this.  They are confused as hell, half don't trust the government, the other half don't trust the media. 

Crisis 101 is communication.  Look at the countries that put this somewhat behind them.  Took it serious, consistent communication, measurable outcomes, no lies or painting an overly rosy picture of reality.  Then - measure the spread and react immediately if you see it.  This is a forest fire.

[pacearrow02]

No, I'm saying your graphic is a crap way of analyzing and representing the data, and if taken as fact does not support your assertions/stance whatsoever. But you already knew that.

The administration is doing nothing. We have no policy. The task force is being ignored, and some local governors are intentionally instituting policies that will lead to deaths.

The fact is, if what is currently going on in places like Hidalgo county, TX, where the only way you get a hospital bed is if someone else dies, and they are overrun with deaths, was happening in the wealthy and white communities, we'd have a massive response and nationwide shutdowns. Instead, we are just letting people die. Apparently, not all lives matter.

Gov’s are instituting policies that are going to purposely kill people?

Are you referring to the information in below article about Cuomo, Whitmer, Murphy, etc?

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/29/885018594/senators-call-for-investigation-of-states-nursing-home-policies-during-pandemic

[pacearrow02]

Oh, it's fair.  It's much nicer than they deserve.  A federal mask requirement would have been extremely effective.  Trump supporters get their marching orders, and the 'others' do it because it actually makes sense.

As for local decisions, why is the Republican governor of Georgia suing the city of Atlanta over its mask requirement?  So much for local mandates, aina?

I disagree with Kemp doing that and believe mayors should have first crack at controlling an outbreak in their communities.  Hopefully the lawsuit gets thrown out.

I think very highly of the Atlanta mayor, very impressive leadership from her during tough times for sure.

[pacearrow02]

Surprised to see the lack of support for these mitigation measures moving forward during every flu/Covid season.

I will continue to fight until preventable death from communicable diseases reach zero, I know that much.

I hope you’ll all find it in your heart to join me and understand that these personal sacrifices we are asking you to make are only for 4-6 months out of every year and if in so doing we save 10s of thousands of lives every year and hundreds of thousands of lives over time, it’ll be worth it.

[Its DJOver]

Surprised to see the lack of support for these mitigation measures moving forward during every flu/Covid season.

I will continue to fight until preventable death from communicable diseases reach zero, I know that much.

I hope you’ll all find it in your heart to join me and understand that these personal sacrifices we are asking you to make are only for 4-6 months out of every year and if in so doing we save 10s of thousands of lives every year and hundreds of thousands of lives over time, it’ll be worth it.

The difference, that I'm not sure that you're grasping, is that the mitigation measures for the seasonal flu would be much less strict than the mitigation measures that are currently needed for Covid.  I also think that getting the annual death numbers to zero is impossible, and you know that.  A better goal IMO should be reducing the number of deaths as much as possible without having a negative effect on the economy.  Increasing availability of flu vaccine, increase hand washing, increase voluntary mask wearing, increase in messaging about the dangers of seasonal flu can all be accomplished without negatively impacting the economy.  As for the overall message that you're trying to send, yes, small sacrifices can and should be made to reduce unnecessary deaths.

[Hards Alumni]

Surprised to see the lack of support for these mitigation measures moving forward during every flu/Covid season.

I will continue to fight until preventable death from communicable diseases reach zero, I know that much.

I hope you’ll all find it in your heart to join me and understand that these personal sacrifices we are asking you to make are only for 4-6 months out of every year and if in so doing we save 10s of thousands of lives every year and hundreds of thousands of lives over time, it’ll be worth it.

I'm not saying, "Let's not do those things because its the flu".  I'm saying that asking the public to do those things under normal flu seasons isn't going to happen if we can't convince everyone to wear masks during a global pandemic.

[jesmu84]

“....Don’t seem to be the most intelligent”.  Not sure that’s fair, either way I believe all along I think it was the responsibility of businesses and local leaders (mayors and govs) to mandate or not mandate masks.

The phases and timeline of Covid infections have been all over the map so to institute the mask requirement from a federal level I don’t think would have worked any better.  In reality it’s not until people become legitimately scared that the infection has taken hold in their community that the compliance to mask wearing goes up.  And those local decisions should be left for local business and elected leadership.

With that said, people are still going to do what they feel they have the right to do.  Right or wrong, that’s America.

This.

Generally speaking, Americans are individual>collective

[pacearrow02]

I'm not saying, "Let's not do those things because its the flu".  I'm saying that asking the public to do those things under normal flu seasons isn't going to happen if we can't convince everyone to wear masks during a global pandemic.

I get all that.  It’s no longer flu season imo. Folks on Scoop have mentioned and seem confident that the Covid vaccine will not be 100% effective and there will be future Covid strains that will vary in potency of course.

We need to change our whole mindset that it’s not just flu season anymore but flu/Covid season and each will bring with it 40-50,000 annual deaths for a combined 100K Americans senselessly losing their lives on avg every year which terrifies me to think about.

Also, it appears Covid doesn’t have a season like the flu primarily does but rather it is equally contagious any month of the year so by no means am I suggesting these measures be put in place permanently moving forward, that’d be crazy.

But if we can’t pressure our local leaders that for the 5-6 month period (Nov-March) where Covid and influenza are running rampant through our communities to put proven preventative measures into place to save 10s of thousands of lives every year then those future administrations and local leaders will have blood on their hands!!!!  Folks, we need to follow the science here and quit accepting all these preventable deaths as ok.

My thoughts for the above flu/Covid time period of nov-March to save as many lives as possible:
     1) no indoor social gatherings of 50+ people.  That should allow for sports to go on uninterrupted just with no fans.
     2) Pull kids from the classroom.  Instead of having summers off I suggest we flip the school calendar on its head with 3 months during winter off instead to isolate the kids at home to protect our elderly and high risk populations.
      3) Mandatory mask wearing whether inside or not.
      4) church services all online
      5) Bars must close and restaurants only doing take out.
      6) Airline capacity 30% to allow for better socially distant flights.
      7) Concerts, plays, symphony’s and other type of entertainment is either done socially distanced outdoors with masks or need to pause for those 5-6 months.
      8) Nursing homes completely locked down.
      9) No hospital visitors
     10) If you do go on a winter vacation down south, beaches need to be monitored very closely.  Of things get out of hand, shut them down.

I think these 10 simple, yet proven steps will save so so soooo many lives and can’t fathom any rational argument against these measures.
     

[rocky_warrior]

Of course death isn’t the only thing we need to worry about here, no one wants to get sick and there could be long term health issues as a result but let’s remember that this virus has become largely manageable with improved treatments and early detection.

We need to change our whole mindset that it’s not just flu season anymore but flu/Covid season and each will bring with it 40-50,000 annual deaths for a combined 100K Americans senselessly losing their lives on avg every year which terrifies me to think about.

[snip]

Folks, we need to follow the science here and quit accepting all these preventable deaths as ok.

Whoa - the whirlwind between those two posts is mind boggling. 

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

Whoa - the whirlwind between those two posts is mind boggling.

Almost like it is disingenuous arguing for the sake of it.

[pacearrow02]

Whoa - the whirlwind between those two posts is mind boggling.  I feel like like I've met someone that likes to continually spin like this before...

You’d be wrong, I’ve never met you before but what you did just witness there was a personal revelation that after being told for the 750x that I’m wrong by my fellow scoopers, I finally started to challenge my own belief system and realized something that I once thought was impossible?!?!?  Maybe jockey, Pakuni, Goooo and the like...maybe they’re looking at this through the right lens and I’ve been way off on this thing  the whole time.

It was a Jerry McGuire moment and all of a sudden these bottled up feelings, thoughts, and ideas just started pouring out and the freedom I now feel with not being beholden to my master but rather free to think and act in the best interest of what science is telling us is something I’ve never experienced before.

Do I think my list of 10 preventative measures is absolutely asinine, you bet.  But it feels sooo good now to be on the right side of history and I look forward to working on this list for permeant implementation during flu/Covid season.

So while we haven’t formally met yet, I look forward to maybe meeting you down the road.   As long as it’s not indoors that is, and we’re 6 ft apart, while wearing masks, for less then 10 minutes and plexiglass between us of course (that last one is an obvious one i suppose).

Stay safe out there!!

[TSmith34, Inc.]

either way I believe all along I think it was the responsibility of businesses and local leaders (mayors and govs) to mandate or not mandate masks.

Ummm, no. Just no. You want 10's of thousands of people making different decisions? Rather than the one person that could have convinced his followers to do it. The absolute failure to lead, leading to a patchwork response, is why we are were we are today.

If it wasn't so tragic it would be hilarious: Trump would be cruising to re-election if he had handled this even semi-competently. Instead, he has made the wrong choice on an almost daily basis. First, ignore the virus and wish it would go away. Then, because Cuomo was getting such high praise, decide to personally handle the daily briefs and show the world what a scientific ignoramous you are. Have all the patience of a 3 tear old and insist everything must re-open against all scientific advice, thereby prolonging the mess of your own making. Give up on controlling the virus and now insist schools much re-open, which will further prolong the virus just in time for the election.

There is only one person that could have torpedoed Trump's chance of re-election. Everything he touches dies.

[pacearrow02]

Ummm, no. Just no. You want 10's of thousands of people making different decisions? Rather than the one person that could have convinced his followers to do it. The absolute failure to lead, leading to a patchwork response, is why we are were we are today.

If it wasn't so tragic it would be hilarious: Trump would be cruising to re-election if he had handled this even semi-competently. Instead, he has made the wrong choice on an almost daily basis. First, ignore the virus and wish it would go away. Then, because Cuomo was getting such high praise, decide to personally handle the daily briefs and show the world what a scientific ignoramous you are. Have all the patience of a 3 tear old and insist everything must re-open against all scientific advice, thereby prolonging the mess of your own making. Give up on controlling the virus and now insist schools much re-open, which will further prolong the virus just in time for the election.

There is only one person that could have torpedoed Trump's chance of re-election. Everything he touches dies.

Are you with me on my “Do 10 to Save 10” campaign.

Let’s use the ineptitude of the federal response and make sure these same mistakes don’t happen next fall/winter.  The power for change lies with the people of America and while TSmith you might not have been the first person I expected to team up with in this new 10 for 10 initiative I’m going to need all the help I can find so let’s get this movement started!!

[shoothoops]

Florida Man. (ok, it's the governor) on his reasoning why he won't close Florida Gyms:

https://twitter.com/AnaCabrera/status/1284203797934419968?s=19

[Jockey]

Ummm, no. Just no. You want 10's of thousands of people making different decisions? Rather than the one person that could have convinced his followers to do it. The absolute failure to lead, leading to a patchwork response, is why we are were we are today.

If it wasn't so tragic it would be hilarious: Trump would be cruising to re-election if he had handled this even semi-competently. Instead, he has made the wrong choice on an almost daily basis. First, ignore the virus and wish it would go away. Then, because Cuomo was getting such high praise, decide to personally handle the daily briefs and show the world what a scientific ignoramous you are. Have all the patience of a 3 tear old and insist everything must re-open against all scientific advice, thereby prolonging the mess of your own making. Give up on controlling the virus and now insist schools much re-open, which will further prolong the virus just in time for the election.

There is only one person that could have torpedoed Trump's chance of re-election. Everything he touches dies.

The easiest thing for a president to do is to be a hero when a crisis occurs. Empathy, honesty, caring, gathering experts, etc. are no brained.

It takes an incredibly evil person to refuse to do any of these things. A president with even an average IQ would have already locked up re-election.

Instead we have a guy with zero empathy, a man who lies as easily as he breathes, a man who brags he knows more than anybody in the world. He has decided that lying and hiding and manipulating data are the ways to deal with this crisis.

A foolish, simple-minded man.

[Hards Alumni]

Almost like it is disingenuous arguing for the sake of it.

Oh, 100%.  I'm just indulging him.

[rocky_warrior]

Miami-Dade at 118% ICU capacity:
https://www.miamidade.gov/information/library/2020-07-17-new-normal-dashboard.pdf

[GooooMarquette]

The administration is doing nothing. We have no policy. The task force is being ignored, and some local governors are intentionally instituting policies that will lead to deaths.

Therein lies our problem in a nutshell.

The administration's non-response to the pandemic is horrific. And even worse, it takes credit when progress is made, but distances itself from - or outright denies - failures that are obvious to all. For their part, some governors have been doing their best with limited resources, while others have taken the administration's ignore and deny approach.

Put it all together, and our numbers are not the least bit surprising: 4% of the world's population, but 23% of the world's COVID deaths. There is no way you can spin that as 'success.'

[Jockey]

I take no responsibility at all.

[🏀]

Jamie, settle down.

[pacearrow02]

Gov’s are instituting policies that are going to purposely kill people?

Are you referring to the information in below article about Cuomo, Whitmer, Murphy, etc?

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/29/885018594/senators-call-for-investigation-of-states-nursing-home-policies-during-pandemic

Crickets on this one huh forgetful?  Can only muster up that impeccable intellectual integrity of yours when in comes to criticizing political figures you disagree with.

The second it comes to acknowledging terrible mistakes by leaders within your own party it’s predictable silence.

[forgetful]

Crickets on this one huh forgetful?  Can only muster up that impeccable intellectual integrity of yours when in comes to criticizing political figures you disagree with.

The second it comes to acknowledging terrible mistakes by leaders within your own party it’s predictable silence.

Some of us have crap to do besides replying to obvious trolls.

1. The policies you have been referring to have been discussed on here ad nauseam, when they were relevant, including by me.

2. There were federal policies stating that nursing home patients discharged from hospitals should be returned to their nursing homes, provided they could be properly cared for. These policies are still in effect nationwide, where nursing homes either still try to handle the patients in house, or accept them back, thereby increasing spread amongst the most vulnerable.

3. There used to be federal polices that held these care facilities liable for not providing proper care and protection in cases exactly like what has led to many of these deaths. These rules were revoked by the current administration by executive action.

So, I've addressed and discussed these issues before, and they are far grander than a political laundry list of democratic governors. The intellectual dishonesty is not examining the entire situations revolving decisions like this, and what factors and policies exist on a nationwide, and federal level. Have mistakes been made, yes, and I've addressed them previously.

Frankly, I have little desire to address anything from you further. So if I don't respond to your replies, it is because in my opinion, you've proven yourself a troll, itching for arguments not honest discussion. Engaging will simply devolve into absurdity, and cause nothing but frustration and futility. That benefits no one.

[pacearrow02]

Some of us have crap to do besides replying to obvious trolls.

1. The policies you have been referring to have been discussed on here ad nauseam, when they were relevant, including by me.

2. There were federal policies stating that nursing home patients discharged from hospitals should be returned to their nursing homes, provided they could be properly cared for. These policies are still in effect nationwide, where nursing homes either still try to handle the patients in house, or accept them back, thereby increasing spread amongst the most vulnerable.

3. There used to be federal polices that held these care facilities liable for not providing proper care and protection in cases exactly like what has led to many of these deaths. These rules were revoked by the current administration by executive action.

So, I've addressed and discussed these issues before, and they are far grander than a political laundry list of democratic governors. The intellectual dishonesty is not examining the entire situations revolving decisions like this, and what factors and policies exist on a nationwide, and federal level. Have mistakes been made, yes, and I've addressed them previously.

Frankly, I have little desire to address anything from you further. So if I don't respond to your replies, it is because in my opinion, you've proven yourself a troll, itching for arguments not honest discussion. Engaging will simply devolve into absurdity, and cause nothing but frustration and futility. That benefits no one.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/07/08/nyregion/nursing-homes-deaths-coronavirus.amp.html

“.....a STATE directive.....” 

So let’s have an honest discussion about whether this was a state or federal order.