Oops / SJU

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I once saw Brad Davison walking down the sidewalk.  I sidestepped into his way to draw a charge, then jumped to celebrate,  punched him in the groin, and ran off screaming "That's payback for Joey!"

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Pere, as I like to call him, administered all 12 sacraments to me.....Like I said.....

Père is French for "Father", and it can also be used as a priest title.  True superfans no Fr. Marquette was named Jacques.

[muguru]

It's too bad some of you all aren't nicer to me...As a nice gesture I was going to have a "give away" of some of my "inventory" of MU stuff(including Warriors stuff, Dwade stuff etc) the deeper MU advanced in the tourney...including the grand prize(If MU cut down the nets) of a fantastic looking MU WARRIORS Winter jacket with the Warriors logo emblazoned on the back...but since most of you ridicule me because I'm freaking passionate about MU hoops(oh the horror!) I may rethink it..

[TSmith34, Inc.]

and that my friend, is how I "compete".

To quote Inigo, I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[Its DJOver]

Oh no, I lost a contest that I didn't even know I was entered in because I called someone out for their excessive pouting, and over the top temper tantrums.

[Goose]

muguru

I fully understand your feelings. Honestly, I think a lot of it has to do with the program has not had lofty success over many scoopers years as a fan. I remember vividly Rick Majerus bashing the guys for not taking losses hard when he was coach. When the guys were at The Gym Bar two hours after a loss he, and many guys from Al era, could not understand it. Back in the day, MU players would go to Ranch House on St. Paul after a loss, not to have fun, but to get away from everyone not tight with the program. Winning was a habit back then and losing was not taken well. I believe that if program builds a real winning tradition, fans will take losses a tad harder in the future. That said, simply a guess on my part.

In today's world, the players play a ton of games from a young age and few win all the time. I do not think losing is ever accepted, it is just responded to differently. As for me, I took MU loss extremely hard for a long time, but shake it off quicker now. Simple reason, my expectations are much lower than they were even 5-7 years ago. I think the last loss that shook me was Kansas in FF.That one stung for me.

[muguru]

muguru

I fully understand your feelings. Honestly, I think a lot of it has to do with the program has not had lofty success over many scoopers years as a fan. I remember vividly Rick Majerus bashing the guys for not taking losses hard when he was coach. When the guys were at The Gym Bar two hours after a loss he, and many guys from Al era, could not understand it. Back in the day, MU players would go to Ranch House on St. Paul after a loss, not to have fun, but to get away from everyone not tight with the program. Winning was a habit back then and losing was not taken well. I believe that if program builds a real winning tradition, fans will take losses a tad harder in the future. That said, simply a guess on my part.

In today's world, the players play a ton of games from a young age and few win all the time. I do not think losing is ever accepted, it is just responded to differently. As for me, I took MU loss extremely hard for a long time, but shake it off quicker now. Simple reason, my expectations are much lower than they were even 5-7 years ago. I think the last loss that shook me was Kansas in FF.That one stung for me.

You got it Goose...this is dead nuts on...This has become a problem in today's society..we teach kids that it is okay to lose. Why?? If losing is okay, and we teach our kids that is okay to lose..when do they then find the drive and desire to work harder, to get better, to strive to never feel that way again?? And you know what?? That's applicable in life as well as competition.

The problem today is(especially with younger ppl) if after losing a hard fought battle, and a Coach says "I want you all to think about how this feels, and ask yourselves if you ever want to feel like this again"?? A major problem is I think most would be like "okay, that sucked but eh..I have video games to go home and play" or whatever the case may be. It just doesn't sting enough, and it should! There are a lot of lessons to be learned from losing, and the feeling should sicken you to the point, you never want it to happen again.

The sad part is..what you said about having lower expectations might be the saddest part of it all..I think MANY now feel that way...Therefore, losses don't sting like they used to..Not many realize how close Buzz was to having this program on the cusp of great things..We as fans were conditioned to expect great things, because a vast majority of the time, they gave us that. It hasn't been that way since he left, and that is what I think many people relate to now..they have just come to accept that it will always be this way for the MU BB program. That bothers me.

Ugh..thanks for reminding me about the Kansas FF game..That one stung bad, and honestly, I still think about it from time to time..I WANT the program to get back there again..and this time I want them to finish the job. I really honestly don't think many really truly care if they do, or their expectations are so low now, that they don't think it will ever happen again.

[muguru]

Oh no, I lost a contest that I didn't even know I was entered in because I called someone out for their excessive pouting, and over the top temper tantrums.

Let me ask you a question...and please answer it honestly...after MU loses a game, what is your reaction?? Are you upset, at all?? Do you just shrug your shoulders and go "oh well, maybe next time"?? Do you throw things?? Do you stomp around?? How do YOU react?? Do you show ANY emotion at all??

[Its DJOver]

Let me ask you a question...and please answer it honestly...after MU loses a game, what is your reaction?? Are you upset, at all?? Do you just shrug your shoulders and go "oh well, maybe next time"?? Do you throw things?? Do you stomp around?? How do YOU react?? Do you show ANY emotion at all??

It depends 100% on the game, the team we played, the circumstances in which we lost.  I was traveling during the game at Louisville in the 2010-2011 season, and I damn near broke my car because I was hitting the dashboard so hard after every one of those ridiculous Preston Knowles 3's.  I was very upset in the way in which we lost that game, but when I arrived at my destination (visiting family) I was still able to enjoy the time I spent with them.   I was visiting the same family members when Zar stepped over the line in '09 and after the game I had to go drive around for a while because I didn't want to ruin other peoples day.  The Omaha loss in 2014-15 was extremely upsetting because we had no right losing to a team like that no matter the circumstances.  Tuesday's loss doesn't compare to any of those.  We lost our first home game of the year (we are now 14-1 at home), we are still very solidly in 2nd place in conference after finishing 7th last year.  We have a chance to pick up a marquee win in a few days time.  We are still having a great season.

Just because I don't turn it up to 11 for every loss does not mean that I don't get upset when we lose certain games, and I try very hard to not effect the people around me when we do lose.  StJ is a good team that beat us by one, I can certainly understand that loss and the circumstances in which it happened more so than the 3 (much more painful) losses listed above. 

[muguru]

To quote Inigo, I don't think that word means what you think it means.

It means EXACTLY what I think it means..Life is a competition my friend. We compete for things every day in some facet. You are "hung up" on how you can compete for something you have no control over...Let me give you a couple of examples..Let's say you enter your name(or it's entered randomly) for a chance to win a drawing for a new car..you are competing against how many others to win that car?? NONE of you have any control over the results..yet, it's still "competing".

Here's another...let's say your favorite band is coming near you and you want to go see them, yet you know unless you try right away the minute after tickets go on sale, you will never get them...so you try and try and try, yet you are unsuccessful in getting them and it's now sold out, 10 minutes after the sale started. You have ZERO influence over how fast you are able to get thru to purchase tickets..you are competing against all the others to get those tickets. It's a competition. Most everything is in some way shape or form whether you have influence over results or not. Again, life is a competition...don't run from it, embrace it.

[Its DJOver]

It means EXACTLY what I think it means..Life is a competition my friend. We compete for things every day in some facet. You are "hung up" on how you can compete for something you have no control over...Let me give you a couple of examples..Let's say you enter your name(or it's entered randomly) for a chance to win a drawing for a new car..you are competing against how many others to win that car?? NONE of you have any control over the results..yet, it's still "competing".

Here's another...let's say your favorite band is coming near you and you want to go see them, yet you know unless you try right away the minute after tickets go on sale, you will never get them...so you try and try and try, yet you are unsuccessful in getting them and it's now sold out, 10 minutes after the sale started. You have ZERO influence over how fast you are able to get thru to purchase tickets..you are competing against all the others to get those tickets. It's a competition. Most everything is in some way shape or form whether you have influence over results or not. Again, life is a competition...don't run from it, embrace it.

But YOU are trying to win a car, YOU are trying to get tickets.  YOU are active doing something to try to achieve your goal.  YOU are not the one shooting the basketball, YOU are not the one playing defense, YOU are not in the huddles calling out plays.  YOU are just sitting in the stands.

[fjm]

Not to become part of this weird tirade. But I judge everyone on here by this:

If you have posted this quote:

“I or someone else I know forgot more about basketball than you will ever know”

Then you go in the “nothing you say carries any weight at all” grouping for me. This quote is dumbest thing and makes it clear that you are trying to be the king of the internet message boards instead of being helpful and part of a community of fans.

And sadly it is certain people who’s opinions I used to value that continually spout this stupid statement. And now with Guru using it, it is clear the group of people that use it are here to claim they are better than the rest.

How about cheer for the team, have fun, and if we lose, it sucks but damn... take a breather.

Everyone else who hasn’t posted that, I can stand.

[muguru]

It depends 100% on the game, the team we played, the circumstances in which we lost.  I was traveling during the game at Louisville in the 2010-2011 season, and I damn near broke my car because I was hitting the dashboard so hard after every one of those ridiculous Preston Knowles 3's.  I was very upset in the way in which we lost that game, but when I arrived at my destination (visiting family) I was still able to enjoy the time I spent with them.   I was visiting the same family members when Zar stepped over the line in '09 and after the game I had to go drive around for a while because I didn't want to ruin other peoples day.  The Omaha loss in 2014-15 was extremely upsetting because we had no right losing to a team like that no matter the circumstances.  Tuesday's loss doesn't compare to any of those.  We lost our first home game of the year (we are now 14-1 at home), we are still very solidly in 2nd place in conference after finishing 7th last year.  We have a chance to pick up a marquee win in a few days time.  We are still having a great season.

Just because I don't turn it up to 11 for every loss does not mean that I don't get upset when we lose certain games, and I try very hard to not effect the people around me when we do lose.  StJ is a good team that beat us by one, I can certainly understand that loss and the circumstances in which it happened more so than the 3 (much more painful) losses listed above.

I love all of this! Love the intensity and the passion and the way you reacted! LOVE it! Great examples of games too, I remember all of them vividly unfortunately. The point is though...a loss is a loss..no matter how it happens, how it occurs etc. Now MAYBE it's a bit different if a team nails a half court buzzer beater to win it, not much you can do about that. As far as losing to SJU, one loss in and of itself isn't that big of a deal..HOWEVER the ramifications of this loss are potentially massive..First off, home losses hurt you in EVERY tool used by the selection committee, you simply can't lose at home. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. Secondly and most importantly, it COULD really have damaged MU's chances at a #2 seed in the NCAA's. With the way MSU is playing the door is/was WIDE open.

Is it still attainable?? Maybe...but now the margin for error becomes MUCH less, like to the extent that I THINK they probably can't lose again, including in the Big East tournament. Had they beaten SJU though, I really believe a loss to Nova(once) and just making the finals of the BE tournament was more then enough to earn a #2 seed. That's a HUGE difference if you really examine it. So my reaction isn't so much to the singular effect of losing this game(though I still think it NEVER should have happened), it's much more about what I feel like they potentially blew with that loss. Ugh

[forgetful]

I don't get this "competition" angle. I'm quite competitive. Some would say bordering on unhealthily so. Also, quite a big MU fan. But being a fan isn't being "competitive". Competition requires something under my control. In actual competitions, if I do lose, it bothers me. I replay every aspect of the competition, to figure out what I could have done different/better, so that next time. I win.

I just reanalyzed everything I did during the St. Johns game. Turns out, nothing I did contributed to the success or failures of MU. Hence, not a competition.

[muguru]

Not to become part of this weird tirade. But I judge everyone on here by this:

If you have posted this quote:

“I or someone else I know forgot more about basketball than you will ever know”

Then you go in the “nothing you say carries any weight at all” grouping for me. This quote is dumbest thing and makes it clear that you are trying to be the king of the internet message boards instead of being helpful and part of a community of fans.

And sadly it is certain people who’s opinions I used to value that continually spout this stupid statement. And now with Guru using it, it is clear the group of people that use it are here to claim they are better than the rest.

How about cheer for the team, have fun, and if we lose, it sucks but damn... take a breather.

Everyone else who hasn’t posted that, I can stand.

Fair enough, but then I have a HUGE issue(always have) that refer to the team as "we". That rubs me the wrong way. If you say "we" when referring to MU basketball or another of your sports teams you root for, I discount anything you have to say.

[Its DJOver]

I love all of this! Love the intensity and the passion and the way you reacted! LOVE it! Great examples of games too, I remember all of them vividly unfortunately. The point is though...a loss is a loss..no matter how it happens, how it occurs etc. Now MAYBE it's a bit different if a team nails a half court buzzer beater to win it, not much you can do about that. As far as losing to SJU, one loss in and of itself isn't that big of a deal..HOWEVER the ramifications of this loss are potentially massive..First off, home losses hurt you in EVERY tool used by the selection committee, you simply can't lose at home. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. Secondly and most importantly, it COULD really have damaged MU's chances at a #2 seed in the NCAA's. With the way MSU is playing the door is/was WIDE open.

Is it still attainable?? Maybe...but now the margin for error becomes MUCH less, like to the extent that I THINK they probably can't lose again, including in the Big East tournament. Had they beaten SJU though, I really believe a loss to Nova(once) and just making the finals of the BE tournament was more then enough to earn a #2 seed. That's a HUGE difference if you really examine it. So my reaction isn't so much to the singular effect of losing this game(though I still think it NEVER should have happened), it's much more about what I feel like they potentially blew with that loss. Ugh

But a loss isn't just a loss in the eyes of the committee.  Despite being at home, the loss to StJ is not nearly as bad as at I4 (I had a not so great reaction to that one too).  Also if a loss is a loss, then a win would be a win.  Personally, I had a much bigger reaction to the UW-Madison win, versus the Southern win.  Its true that in basketball you can only either win or lose, but not all losses are equal, the same way not all wins are equal. 

[muguru]

But YOU are trying to win a car, YOU are trying to get tickets.  YOU are active doing something to try to achieve your goal.  YOU are not the one shooting the basketball, YOU are not the one playing defense, YOU are not in the huddles calling out plays.  YOU are just sitting in the stands.

I disagree with this 100%. I am at the game cheering my lungs out TRYING to help influence the game in some way by being as loud as I can, and we do KNOW in any sporting event crowd noise can/does have an effect. I AM trying to do something.

[Its DJOver]

I disagree with this 100%. I am at the game cheering my lungs out TRYING to help influence the game in some way by being as loud as I can, and we do KNOW in any sporting event crowd noise can/does have an effect. I AM trying to do something.

Maybe the home crowd in it's entirety.  The attendance was listed at just over 14K on Tuesday.  If we were at 17.5 capacity like I expect Saturday maybe we win, but if we had 14,031 versus 14,030 the outcome would have been no different, no matter how loud that one fan is.

[muguru]

But a loss isn't just a loss in the eyes of the committee.  Despite being at home, the loss to StJ is not nearly as bad as at I4 (I had a not so great reaction to that one too).  Also if a loss is a loss, then a win would be a win.  Personally, I had a much bigger reaction to the UW-Madison win, versus the Southern win.  Its true that in basketball you can only either win or lose, but not all losses are equal, the same way not all wins are equal.

I agree with this 1000%. However, in the committee's eyes a loss at home to Villanova would also not be as bad as a loss at home to SJU. Agreed?? That's the point, the margin is razor thin..at the end of the day the committee could look at MU's resume(with thoughts of giving them a #2 seed) and if comparing it to another team who has a loss at home but to a top 10 team for example, and everything else is equal, that loss to SJU AT HOME very well may tip the scales. And in the committee's eyes, it's true that home losses ALWAYS hurt you more then a road loss does. RPI is a perfect example of this...you could go on the road and beat a mediocre team, and your RPI would go up(sometimes substantially), but if you lost at home (even to a really good team), your RPI would ALWAYS ALWAYS drop. Home losses hurt, they really hurt.

[muguru]

I don't get this "competition" angle. I'm quite competitive. Some would say bordering on unhealthily so. Also, quite a big MU fan. But being a fan isn't being "competitive". Competition requires something under my control. In actual competitions, if I do lose, it bothers me. I replay every aspect of the competition, to figure out what I could have done different/better, so that next time. I win.

I just reanalyzed everything I did during the St. Johns game. Turns out, nothing I did contributed to the success or failures of MU. Hence, not a competition.

Just curious, were you at the game, or watching on TV??

[MU82]

guru, DJO's reactions and thoughts on the subject are similar to mine.

When watching a game and when things aren't going well for our heroes, I occasionally yell at the TV. I've been known to flip a remote control up in the air. I will curse sometimes ... sending my poor dog scurrying out of the room and under my desk in the office next door. When we got down by 15 to St. John's, I told my wife, "OK, I've got to settle down a little." And I sat there very quietly, almost motionless, testing my ability to chill. When we got it down to 7 or so, I resumed my discussions with the MU players and coaches on the TV. When we're going well, I'll clap and/or make the 3-point symbol and/or stand.

When I'm with a group of friends watching a game at a bar, I am less outwardly demonstrative. Other bar patrons don't want to hear some yahoo swearing at the top of his lungs at a televised basketball game. But I am definitely feeling the emotions inside, and I tend to talk out every play, as do a few of my buds. I'm sure we sound like yammering fools.

I am the coordinator for our National Marquette Day festivities in Charlotte this Saturday. There will be families there. Am I supposed to scream and swear at the TV to prove how "competitive" I am? Would you? Or am I supposed to act like a mature adult who has a life beyond MU hoops? I will do the latter, of course, but I will be emoting inside, and I certainly will be whoopin' it up when things are going well. These events are never easy for me because I really want to focus on the game and a lot of folks want to socialize.

When I am at a game, I cheer a lot, stand more than most, make the 3 sign every time Sam or Markus release an H-bomb, etc. I was fortunate enough to have incredible seats for the DePaul game last month and I often was one of only a couple people standing in my entire section. But again, I mostly grumble when things aren't going well, because nobody wants to be seated in front of, behind, or next to the jerk who is swearing in public.

I was covering Illinois basketball in 2003, and they happened to be playing their first- and second-round games in Indy, just as we were. So I watched the MU-Holy Cross game on press row while waiting for the Illinois game to start. Again, I had to act like a professional, so I wasn't throwing things or cursing. At one point, when things weren't going well, I put my head down on the press table and stopped watching for a minute. At another point, I got up and took about a 3-minute walk in the corridor before I came back to my seat. What was funny is that later, one of my fellow scribes was telling people, "You should have seen Mike. He was going crazy!" Which was 100% not true -- I was the opposite of going crazy. Damn lyin' media - ha! I was a nervous wreck again two days later during the Mizzou game, which was one of the most incredible games I've ever witnessed in person.

After losses, I'm never happy. I usually cope by reliving the couple/few things that I thought cost us the game. I'll wait hours, or sometimes a day, before I go on Scoop because I already feel bad enough. But I then have to get on with my life. I have work to do or stuff to do around the house. I have a wife I don't want to make miserable. I'm certainly not still moping 2 or 3 days later. You might think that's the same as shrugging and saying "I don't care," but you're wrong. It's accepting that I can't change what happened and refusing to make myself and those I love miserable because a bunch of 20-year-olds missed a few shots.

guru, I assure you that I am extremely competitive and I want to win. Ask my kids if I ever let them beat me at anything. Never! Not even Candyland. My son and I would play 1-on-1 and I'd block every shot I could. I never lost to him because I was smart enough to stop playing him when he was about 11. I'm still that way when the family plays board games.

I am a basketball coach now. I was a head coach at the middle-school level for 4 years and now I'm an assistant for one of the top HS programs in Charlotte. There have been times that I've been less than pleased on the bench. But a coach can't lose his shyte. He or she has to be a role model, has to keep his or her composure. And unlike MU games, I actually have a little control over some of the things that happen in games I coach (at least when I was a head coach).

You are no more "competitive" than I am, my friend. Nor are you more "passionate" a fan. You just react differently to the stimuli with which you are presented. You choose to get worked up, to let it fester for days, etc.

And that's cool. Whatever floats your boat. I will agree to stop telling you to chill if you agree to stop calling out your fellow Scoopers for not being as "competitive" as you are.

Not only is it childish, but it's inaccurate. As is you knowing more about basketball than anybody else here. That's just silly.

[Its DJOver]

I agree with this 1000%. However, in the committee's eyes a loss at home to Villanova would also not be as bad as a loss at home to SJU. Agreed?? That's the point, the margin is razor thin..at the end of the day the committee could look at MU's resume(with thoughts of giving them a #2 seed) and if comparing it to another team who has a loss at home but to a top 10 team for example, and everything else is equal, that loss to SJU AT HOME very well may tip the scales. And in the committee's eyes, it's true that home losses ALWAYS hurt you more then a road loss does. RPI is a perfect example of this...you could go on the road and beat a mediocre team, and your RPI would go up(sometimes substantially), but if you lost at home (even to a really good team), your RPI would ALWAYS ALWAYS drop. Home losses hurt, they really hurt.

Just a tip, don't use RPI as an argument, you won't win.  While it's true that home losses hurt more than road losses, margins are far more important than where a game took place.  If I had to rank our 4 losses from best to worst it would go:

1 point home loss to StJ
9 point neutral loss to KU
BIG GAP
20 point road loss to StJ
23 point road loss to I4

The same way that the narrow winning margins weren't helping our advanced numbers a lot, a narrow loss (even at home) does not hurt our advanced numbers as much as the road blowouts.  NET movement has confirmed this.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Good convo guys.  I was uoset we lost the game vs SJU but not as bad as an NCAa game many of which have been mentioned.  SJU is a bad matchup and id like to see more of Sam or ed at the 5 and more of joe c and bailey against them in the future.  Love theo but hes a liability in that game.
Was glad we fought and game back was most disappointed in how we came out in the first half, played without toughness or intensity on both halves and gave up 55% fg shooting?  It eas like 2016-2018 seasons all over again, that was very disheartening to me.

Intersting enuff i had a conversation with a young player yesterday. Spoke to him to see if he would be a good fit, above and beyond that hes a really fine player.  I asked him what he felt some of his best attributes were.  First thing he said was “ i love to win”. Fine response and extremely common.  Kid said all the right things but i ultimately walked away saying to myself “i wish he had said ‘i hate to lose’”

[muguru]

Maybe the home crowd in it's entirety.  The attendance was listed at just over 14K on Tuesday.  If we were at 17.5 capacity like I expect Saturday maybe we win, but if we had 14,031 versus 14,030 the outcome would have been no different, no matter how loud that one fan is.

But you are making my point...fans CAN and DO influence outcomes of games. To say they don't or that "we as fans" have no control over an outcome, is simply NOT true. We do.

[tower912]

One of the advantages of growing up a Detroit Lions fan is that I learned to manage disappointment early.    My MU years were 84-88, Majerus to Dukiet.   I rooted like crazy, student section all 4 years, realized that the team stunk.  Managed my disappointment  The last time I threw anything watching sports was a MU game during the Deane years.   Had no effect on the game, had to replace a lamp.    Another lesson learned.   
  I have now coached well over 30 youth teams in 5 sports.    Teach the kids to compete as hard as they can and then shake hands when it is over.   Not the worst lesson in the world.    Knowing I am a role model for these kids, they have never seen me lose my temper with an umpire/referee.    All of my disagreements are in a conversational tone.   Screaming, irrational parents... I let them have their say and then try to get them to speak like a mature, rational adult.   
   Finally, having been a firefighter for nearly 29 years, I know what life and death looks like.    MU basketball ranks very high on my obsession list.    But it isn't life or death.