Pro-Jos V. No-Jos

[WhoaJoe2020]

I disagree.

Look objectively at the board after losses. Unabashed negativity.

Look objectively at the board after wins. Measured responses.

There is little comparison.

Yes, this was my original point. Thank you for getting it.

[Galway Eagle]

Wojo knows basketball. I think he just stubbornly sticks to his plan.

I've thought this as well

[#UnleashSean]

Wojo knows basketball. I think he just stubbornly sticks to his plan.

If he's to stubborn go change his game plan, does he truly know basketball?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Yeah I think he believes that executing the plan will work. Bo did this for years and won many games by doing the same thing over and over.

[WhoaJoe2020]

Soso-jos are the silent majority.

I guess in a round about way that was the point I was trying to make.

I personally don't think there are ANY extreme ProJos who do nothing but sing his praises.

I also don't believe there are MANY extreme NoJos who do nothing but trash him. But it seems they do exist, and they become extremely active after a tough loss, trashing not only Wojo but often individual players by name.

I regret not making this distinction more apparent in my original post but that was the point I was trying to make.

If I was going to label myself, I too would put myself in the so-so jo camp.

[NCMUFan]

People wanted Crean fired. Buzz fired.  And of course, Wojo fired.  I supported Crean.  I supported Buzz.  Crean jumped ship.  Buzz jumped ship.  What will Wojo do?
Some people like to look into the crystal ball and see the next messiah of MU BB.  That is just how it is.  As Wojo would say, "Just noise to ignore so you don't lose focus."

[WhoaJoe2020]

There are a lot of different aspects to being a top level NCAA D1 coach.  In general I'm pro-Wojo because he's winning and running a clean program.  My ratings are as follows:

Recruiting         A
Clean Program  A
Internal politics, dealing with administration, securing internal sponsorship (generally summed up as a$$ kissing but entirely necessary)   A
Player Fitness   B-  (I question the quantity of hand injuries, and the fitness level of the team, albeit less this year than last)
Game Strategy   C  Seems to me kind of hit and miss
Game Coaching   C-  Doesn't adjust quickly or in impactful manner frequently enough
Press and PR        B-   Caspar Milquetoast, and very little national presence
NCAA Tournament Success   C  getting there but not winning
BEAST Success      B+
Beats Wisconsin   C+ . 3-3 but the win last year when they were ranked 12 was nice

I don't know if you can train players to avoid hand injuries but otherwise your grades are in the same range as mine.

[Lennys Tap]

I absolutely have biases against one coach because of friend and colleagues in the athletic dept and university while he was there, and some of the BS that was going on that resulted in people being fired, messy messy stuff in the public, etc.  Yup.  But I acknowledge he is a good coach.  I’m also not a win at all costs and never will be.

Your “sources” for the “other shoes” that never dropped.

[jesmu84]

Yes - I agree - so many times when the other team is going on a run/we're on a drought, the camera shots of Wojo just show him blankly staring like a deer in headlights. There is rarely a plan B in-game other than "Markus, go be an all-American".

But also giving credit where credit is due, I think one of the biggest gripes of the soso and nojos has historically been out atrocious our defenses have been. This year is a marked difference - both in terms of the computer numbers but also in terms of the "feel" that we can stop/hold teams even if we're not firing on all cylinders on O. That represents a real step forward IMO.

I really wanted to become a projo last year, but the end of season collapse/hausershima destroyed all the faith that the mid-season run had instilled. I'd like to believe again, but this year has to be a step forward - and a step forward, to me, means winning a NCAA game. Treading water is mediocrity.

I think we're probably on the same page. But your statement about a step forward is tricky.

If Marquette went 4-12 in conference, somehow won the BET, snuck in to the NCAA as a 10-11 seed and won the first game before getting blown out in the second.. would you really have faith again?

Or, would you have more faith in a top 2 conference finish, BET finals appearance and a first round OT loss in the NCAAs?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I'm going to use a game that was played last night as a perfect example of my biggest frustration with Wojo(in game adjustments)...Oregon St-Colorado. Oregon St was struggling defensively early on. So Wayne Tinkle after a time out switches to a 1-3-1 zone. After that Colorado looked like they had never played basketball before. Completely changed the game and OSU went on to win.

Those are the things I think Wojo lacks that I find most frustrating. The ability to adapt/switch like that in game.

Sorta like Wojo did against Maryland?

[brewcity77]

I really wanted to become a projo last year, but the end of season collapse/hausershima destroyed all the faith that the mid-season run had instilled. I'd like to believe again, but this year has to be a step forward - and a step forward, to me, means winning a NCAA game. Treading water is mediocrity.

Personally, I think you've been one of the most fair and consistent posters in that regard. Willing to give credit where it's due, willing to be critical when it's called for.

As far as the recruiting, I think where I give Wojo extra credit is as a talent evaluator. Sure, not everyone worked out (Haanif, Traci come to mind) but he's had success with top-100 players (Henry, Markus, Sam, Sy) and three stars (Jamal, Greg, Theo) alike. I also like that more often than not, when I look at the guys we missed on, they usually seem to be successful. Not just high profile guys like Cassius Winston & Nico Mannion but less regarded guys like Hasahn French & Lamar Stevens.

Wojo in general has come up just short of my expectations every year. I hoped for postseason play with Ellenson, we just missed out. I hoped for a tourney win in 2017, we had that awful second half against SC. I hoped for a bid in 2018, we were one win away. I hoped for a Big East title & tourney run last year, we were one win (and a Markus injury) away from both likely happening. I think Wojo thus far has always done just a bit less than the talent would allow.

My expectations this year were a Big East title and at least the second weekend, so if people are happy with 2nd or 3rd in league & a NCAA win, that's what we'll probably get if Wojo continues to just miss my expectations. But if he can stack classes, if Garcia is a NBA player & we land Mane who is a one or two and done type, that along with other top-100s, maybe a Kendall Brown, and an experienced roster could be a title contender, so maybe Wojo coming up just short will mean sharing a Big East title and a Final Four.

Maybe he needs a Duke-lite roster to get Duke-lite results, but if we're 2-3 years away from finding out, I think it's worth that wait.

[WhoaJoe2020]

Agree with fluffy. No question he is a good recruiter, but his on floor coaching is mediocre. I do not buy that MU is trending up and use last year as evidence. The end of year swoon and Hausergate are on Wojo. Dont believe he has won a dance game and even failed to make the dance several of his years. While his incoming class for next year looks good on paper, he is also losing a lot. And I see a lot of pain next year when losing Howard. No go to guy will create more losses.
Think it is dumb to classify 2 camps, pro and no. Likely 90 to 95% of posters here want MU to have consistent high level success. So people should subscribe to that and recognize that after 5.5 years of Wojo, that has not been achieved. He may be a great guy personally, but he is the coach getting paid a ton with lots of nice resources, and is not taking team to a higher level.

I guess where I disagree with you would be on the trend of the program year over year, and putting the end of season collapse and " Hausergate " TOTALLY on Wojo. The numbers speak for themselves as far as trending positive year over year goes.  Sams hip, Gregs thumb, Markus being beat up,  Joey hitting the freshman wall, and Wojos coaching were all factors in the late season collapse IMHO. And by all available accounts " Hausergate " occurred due to both parties actions. Again, not TOTALLY on Wojo.

[1SE]

I think we're probably on the same page. But your statement about a step forward is tricky.

If Marquette went 4-12 in conference, somehow won the BET, snuck in to the NCAA as a 10-11 seed and won the first game before getting blown out in the second.. would you really have faith again?

Or, would you have more faith in a top 2 conference finish, BET finals appearance and a first round OT loss in the NCAAs?

That former scenario is pretty unlikely (I wouldn't take the parlay!) but even under your extremes I would say it is a pretty tough call. If we finished top-2 BE with BET finals appearances we're probably talking a protected seed. If we dropped a game in OT as a 3 seed, after our epic melt down last year as a 5, I think there would be a lot of questions asked.

If, on the other hand, we were able to turn a dismal conference season around by winning the BET and then pulling off an upset as an 11 I think I'd actually be happier with that.

But for me winning in March is everything.

[1SE]

Personally, I think you've been one of the most fair and consistent posters in that regard. Willing to give credit where it's due, willing to be critical when it's called for.

As far as the recruiting, I think where I give Wojo extra credit is as a talent evaluator. Sure, not everyone worked out (Haanif, Traci come to mind) but he's had success with top-100 players (Henry, Markus, Sam, Sy) and three stars (Jamal, Greg, Theo) alike. I also like that more often than not, when I look at the guys we missed on, they usually seem to be successful. Not just high profile guys like Cassius Winston & Nico Mannion but less regarded guys like Hasahn French & Lamar Stevens.

Wojo in general has come up just short of my expectations every year. I hoped for postseason play with Ellenson, we just missed out. I hoped for a tourney win in 2017, we had that awful second half against SC. I hoped for a bid in 2018, we were one win away. I hoped for a Big East title & tourney run last year, we were one win (and a Markus injury) away from both likely happening. I think Wojo thus far has always done just a bit less than the talent would allow.

My expectations this year were a Big East title and at least the second weekend, so if people are happy with 2nd or 3rd in league & a NCAA win, that's what we'll probably get if Wojo continues to just miss my expectations. But if he can stack classes, if Garcia is a NBA player & we land Mane who is a one or two and done type, that along with other top-100s, maybe a Kendall Brown, and an experienced roster could be a title contender, so maybe Wojo coming up just short will mean sharing a Big East title and a Final Four.

Maybe he needs a Duke-lite roster to get Duke-lite results, but if we're 2-3 years away from finding out, I think it's worth that wait.

Yeah, I think we're mostly on the same-page. Wojo turns in consistent C+/B- seasons. If you're pulling in a top-10 recruiting class every year then you can get away with that. 

*Edit - and I've argued elsewhere here before that that is exactly what K is - he mostly turns in mediocre season results given the levels of talent he brings in - but the talent he brings in is so good "meeting expectations" is a FF or even NC game. That's a high bar.

[MU82]

As far as the recruiting, I think where I give Wojo extra credit is as a talent evaluator. Sure, not everyone worked out (Haanif, Traci come to mind) but he's had success with top-100 players (Henry, Markus, Sam, Sy) and three stars (Jamal, Greg, Theo) alike. I also like that more often than not, when I look at the guys we missed on, they usually seem to be successful. Not just high profile guys like Cassius Winston & Nico Mannion but less regarded guys like Hasahn French & Lamar Stevens.

Wojo in general has come up just short of my expectations every year. I hoped for postseason play with Ellenson, we just missed out. I hoped for a tourney win in 2017, we had that awful second half against SC. I hoped for a bid in 2018, we were one win away. I hoped for a Big East title & tourney run last year, we were one win (and a Markus injury) away from both likely happening. I think Wojo thus far has always done just a bit less than the talent would allow.

My expectations this year were a Big East title and at least the second weekend, so if people are happy with 2nd or 3rd in league & a NCAA win, that's what we'll probably get if Wojo continues to just miss my expectations. But if he can stack classes, if Garcia is a NBA player & we land Mane who is a one or two and done type, that along with other top-100s, maybe a Kendall Brown, and an experienced roster could be a title contender, so maybe Wojo coming up just short will mean sharing a Big East title and a Final Four.

Maybe he needs a Duke-lite roster to get Duke-lite results, but if we're 2-3 years away from finding out, I think it's worth that wait.

I love this post, brewski ... and I would, as it mostly sums up my feelings.

I think Wojo has great potential as a coach, but I have been mildly disappointed that we haven't made more progress than we have so far.

While wishing we had done better, I also have mostly enjoyed watching his teams play. And I do think we are very close to being a perennial top-20 team under him, which means a 5-seed or better every year.

Plus, I know what rebuilding means -- the likely loss of recruits and current players, and another long wait/climb under another new coach. Yes, the FIRE WOJO NOW brigade can point to a handful of occasions in which coaches have been able to rebuild quickly,but  there are only a handful. Most rebuilds go just as the rebuilds under KO, Crean and Wojo have.

Besides, I know there is zero chance he is going to get fired this year, so I refuse to waste energy even contemplating it. I choose to appreciate the good team Wojo has built and hope that we will achieve the greatness that is possible.

FWIW, I also strongly supported KO, Crean and Buzz. Heck, I supported Deane until it became obvious that the program was going backward rapidly and I heard the reports of him spending more energy trying to recruit co-eds during his benders than athletes for our Warriors.

[tower912]

He has exactly met my expectations from a wins perspective every year, based on the roster make up of each team.   Actually exceeded it in year 1.   Postseason results are of course disappointing
   I have yet to see enough that indicates he will separate himself and become a Donovan, Beard, Buzz.   Right now, he seems like a Crean, Weber, Cooley, Willard, Archie Miller.   Good, but not a program changer.
    But I still feel like he has the potential to get there.  I feel like something will click, all the tumblers will align and he will figure out the secret sauce.   My fear is that he will do it at his next stop and be another Majerus for us.   But that is just my gut and I don't know that I can give a substantive reason.

[WhoaJoe2020]

If he's to stubborn go change his game plan, does he truly know basketball?

Maybe.... If by sticking to his system players improve game to game within that system. (See Creighton game vs the Villanova game). Player development throughout the season is a huge part of winning basketball.

[MU82]

My fear is that he will do it at his next stop and be another Majerus for us.

Definitely could happen.

Those Scoopers rooting for him to win just enough to be lured away by another program seemingly don't think this is even slightly possible, but I could see him going to a Maryland and winning huge while we go through another 3-4-5 year rebuild.

That fear wouldn't stop me from firing him if I felt he deserved to be fired. But I don't.

[WhoaJoe2020]

He has exactly met my expectations from a wins perspective every year, based on the roster make up of each team.   Actually exceeded it in year 1.   Postseason results are of course disappointing
   I have yet to see enough that indicates he will separate himself and become a Donovan, Beard, Buzz.   Right now, he seems like a Crean, Weber, Cooley, Willard, Archie Miller.   Good, but not a program changer.
    But I still feel like he has the potential to get there.  I feel like something will click, all the tumblers will align and he will figure out the secret sauce.   My fear is that he will do it at his next stop and be another Majerus for us.   But that is just my gut and I don't know that I can give a substantive reason.

Exactly.... He's earning his stripes here. My hope is that he earns his stars here.

[Silkk the Shaka]

"Long time lurker" WhoaJoe2020 all of a sudden starts posting 30 times a day right out the gate with Cheeks talking points.

Interesting. I don't disagree with much of what is being said. It's just interesting, to me, as an observer!

[1SE]

Which long-time poster is WhoaJoe? I get so confused with all these names...

[1SE]

"Long time lurker" WhoaJoe2020 all of a sudden starts posting 30 times a day right out the gate with Cheeks talking points.

Interesting. I don't disagree with much of what is being said. It's just interesting, to me, as an observer!

Ha - just what went through my mind - maybe the mods can create a sticky names thread so we can keep track of who is who!

[Shooter McGavin]

   I have yet to see enough that indicates he will separate himself and become a Donovan, Beard, Buzz.   Right now, he seems like a Crean, Weber, Cooley, Willard, Archie Miller.   Good, but not a program changer.
    But I still feel like he has the potential to get there.  I feel like something will click, all the tumblers will align and he will figure out the secret sauce.   My fear is that he will do it at his next stop and be another Majerus for us.   But that is just my gut and I don't know that I can give a substantive reason.

This sums it up perfectly for me.  Gut feeling he is turning a corner and just when he does he will be gone and hit his stride at another school. 

Let’s just see how this whole season plays out.  A big part of my gut feeling is success this year on the court.  If we fail miserably then I am not immune to the reality that we may have to go in a different direction.

[WhoaJoe2020]

"Long time lurker" WhoaJoe2020 all of a sudden starts posting 30 times a day right out the gate with Cheeks talking points.

Interesting. I don't disagree with much of what is being said. It's just interesting, to me, as an observer!

I am indeed a first time poster on scoop.
I was motivated to start posting mainly out of frustration with the recruiting thread that was constantly being hijacked. I also frequented many of the Wojo debate threads and of course towers post game write-ups. I really appreciate some of the insight many posters share. I don't appreciate tangential gratuitous provocation leading to food fights that detract from the legitimate points being made by the OPs and those that respond to the OP.
It just so happens that IMHO a few extreme NoJos were often the instigators of these disruptions. I am a believer that it does matter who hit who first so I give a bit of a pass to the ProJos who were complicit in keeping the fights going.

And yeah, I've been posting a lot, but I've held my mud for a long time and this is me venting. No apologies will be forthcoming.

[Daniel]

He has exactly met my expectations from a wins perspective every year, based on the roster make up of each team.   Actually exceeded it in year 1.   Postseason results are of course disappointing
   I have yet to see enough that indicates he will separate himself and become a Donovan, Beard, Buzz.   Right now, he seems like a Crean, Weber, Cooley, Willard, Archie Miller.   Good, but not a program changer.
    But I still feel like he has the potential to get there.  I feel like something will click, all the tumblers will align and he will figure out the secret sauce.   My fear is that he will do it at his next stop and be another Majerus for us.   But that is just my gut and I don't know that I can give a substantive reason.

“  My fear is that he will do it at his next stop and be another Majerus for us.”  But that means if we have enough patience with him and support him, that can still happen here.  It is happening.  He is a better coach today than 5 years ago.   I think in-game adjustments is an area to focus on.  Otherwise, pretty solid. And I’m sure he knows what he has to work on. He’s a smart guy.  He will bring a Marquette higher than anyone else who might come here now.  So go Wojo!  We Are Marquette!