Pro-Jos V. No-Jos

[Disco Hippie]

Frustrating as the Creighton game was, I'll happily trade an L at Creighton for a home court W over a Top 10 ranked blue blood every year, regardless of who our coach is at any given time.  If it was inevitable that'd we'd go 1-1 for our first two conf games even before we played them, no MU fan, let alone Scooper, would wish those W's were reversed.

[GooooMarquette]

If you want to go to an MU website where no competing thoughts are allowed, then by all means go to Mr. Dodds site.   Given the relative amount of postings , MU fans prefer to be here even if it means they have to put up with opinions they don't agree with.

True dat. I once got chastised by Dodds when I tried to agree with a point he made, but he didn't think I did so with sufficient enthusiasm. 

Competing viewpoints are good, as long as they are discussed rationally and respectfully.

[WhoaJoe2020]

I think you are missing that fact that this is an  anonymous internet message board. The whole premise of the site among others things is a forum for debate.  We vigorously debate these issues day after day, week after week , year after year. That is why Crean Sucks and ND Sucks.

Over time people have moved up and down the spectrum in their view on the job Wojo is doing. In fact many people have evolved.

I think  it was fantastic that Mike Deans Dark Glasses reemerged and energized the debate for everyone. Makes it a better website to have multiple points of view.  He even put out a standard )(MDDGS) by which he could declare that Wojo was in fact the right guy for the job. We had a debate over how much of that standard was reasonable and achievable. 

If you want to go to an MU website where no competing thoughts are allowed, then by all means go to Mr. Dodds site.   Given the relative amount of postings , MU fans prefer to be here even if it means they have to put up with opinions they don't agree with.

Competing thoughts I'm fine with.
Mindless negative trolling not so much.

[Daniel]

I like Wojo.  He is a far better coach today than when he got here.  He recruits well.  The program is clean.   And we can win. This is an important season. It is time to deliver.  Keep playing like we did vs Villanova. Go Marquette!

[Herman Cain]

Your "point" is that there are no projos, just unreasonable nojos who think that reasonable  and fair minded neutral observers are projos. Because, of course, they're (the nojos) so unreasonable.

IMHO your point is as biased as anyone else's.

And BTW, Herman, (see post above) I'm all for competing points of view. As long as people are honest about their biases.

Lenny,
My comments where directed at WhoaJoe2020. I agree with your analysis. (i amended post)

n particular, You do a great job of pointing out Chicos biases over the years which I have found very enjoyable .

[WhoaJoe2020]

Your "point" is that there are no projos, just unreasonable nojos who think that reasonable  and fair minded neutral observers are projos. Because, of course, they're (the nojos) so unreasonable.

IMHO your point is as biased as anyone else's.

And BTW, Herman, (see post above) I'm all for competing points of view. As long as people are honest about their biases.

And still you dodge the point of the original post.
If you want to call my analysis of Wojos tenure, based on verifiable facts, biased, so be it. He hasn't been great but he hasn't been the train wreck that some people(NoJos) make him out to be. That's my biased opinion.

[Herman Cain]

Competing thoughts I'm fine with.
Mindless negative trolling not so much.

There are very few trolls. Yeah there was that guy Cheesy who was sticking it to us about  not recruiting Tyler Herro and once in a blue moon a drunk badger type shows up. 

Most people who you think are trolls are just guys dug into their position, or super spirited types , looking for data to support their view point. Ugly losses reinforces their point of view. When we win big, the guys with the optimistic view do their own version of the naked touchdown dance.

Most Everyone posting here wants the best for the program.

[WhoaJoe2020]

True dat. I once got chastised by Dodds when I tried to agree with a point he made, but he didn't think I did so with sufficient enthusiasm. 

Competing viewpoints are good, as long as they are discussed rationally and respectfully.

And that's the difference between a NoJo and someone who is willing to articulate in a reasonable manner their reasons why they think Wojo should go.
Providing historical evidence of comparable coaches in similar circumstances getting the ax would go a long way in supporting the argument.
Citing his ten second mic"ed huddles, his monotone pressers, or the fact that he lost a road game to an 11-2 team as reasons, not so much.
Providing the name of a suitable replacement and guaranteeing the current recruits won't decommit would also go a long way in convincing people as to the logic of firing the current coach.

[MU82]

I guess my first question is..... Which direction do you think the program is trending since the start of Wojos tenure?  I agree it's been a mixed bag but I see the program on an upward trajectory. It isn't obvious but data to support this conclusion is there.

My second question....... If the program is improving, is it improving fast enough and to an acceptable level of success? This is what I struggle with answering in the affirmative. Like most people I crave instant gratification and sometime have unrealistic expectations but at the same time have to guard against settling for less than the achievable. Last year I expected at least a second round game in the tournament so regardless of the factors (poor ego management by Wojo, injuries, fatigue)leading to the teams late season collapse the end result was unacceptable.

I guess I'm with the wait and see crowd at this point in the season but I'm leaning in a positive direction.

The trend has been positive. I wish it were even better. This season will tell us more.

I am generally a positive person. When I go out with MU friends to watch any game -- something I do several times every season -- I often am the guy defending several of our players and the coach as my buddies nitpick everything to death.

If that means that sometimes I'm a little too positive, that's a tradeoff I'm willing to make.

But I do get frustrated and concerned, just as any fan does. I gave Wojo more than half of the blame for Hausershima and I worried it would hurt his recruiting. He then landed an outstanding class, and again I'm positive. I hope his game coaching continues to improve, too.

Even if I wasn't positive by design, to me it would take too much energy to go on interwebs sites and demand over and over and over again that he be fired when I know he damn well isn't gonna be fired. I might as well demand that Lovell himself be fired. That isn't happening, either.

[WhiteTrash]

Of course, great coaches have their gameplans and teams prepared the first time they face every opponent. Wojo is not a great coach.....Yet

Thanks WhoaJoe for a thoughtful response. There are many coaches I would never question after losing to Creighton on the road like we did, so it's not just that game. I just want him to get to the point where we can dismiss games like that as an outlier. And the Nova game was significant evidence it was. GO MU!

[WhoaJoe2020]

There are very few trolls. Yeah there was that guy Cheesy who was sticking it to us about  not recruiting Tyler Herro and once in a blue moon a drunk badger type shows up. 

Most people who you think are trolls are just guys dug into their position, or super spirited types , looking for data to support their view point. Ugly losses reinforces their point of view. When we win big, the guys with the optimistic view do their own version of the naked touchdown dance.

Most Everyone posting here wants the best for the program.

So celebrating a big win = trashing the coach and players after a tough loss?

That was the point of my original post.
The two are not equivalent.

As to your final comment..... Sadly, when it comes to a few of the extreme NoJos, I'm beginning to doubt that.

[Cheeks]

Lenny,
My comments where directed at WhoaJoe2020. I agree with your analysis. (i amended post)

n particular, You do a great job of pointing out Chicos biases over the years which I have found very enjoyable .

I absolutely have biases against one coach because of friend and colleagues in the athletic dept and university while he was there, and some of the BS that was going on that resulted in people being fired, messy messy stuff in the public, etc.  Yup.  But I acknowledge he is a good coach.  I'm also not a win at all costs and never will be.

[Herman Cain]

I absolutely have biases against one coach because of friend and colleagues in the athletic dept and university while he was there, and some of the BS that was going on that resulted in people being fired, messy messy stuff in the public, etc.  Yup.  But I acknowledge he is a good coach.  I'm also not a win at all costs and never will be.

You have been consistent with that point of view over a long time . Others look at that same coach as the best since Al and don't place as much weight as you do on the inside politics of his tenure at MU.

[WhoaJoe2020]

Thanks WhoaJoe for a thoughtful response. There are many coaches I would never question after losing to Creighton on the road like we did, so it's not just that game. I just want him to get to the point where we can dismiss games like that as an outlier. And the Nova game was significant evidence it was. GO MU!

Actually, we need to see how he prepares for CU at home and VU at their place. Wright and McDermott are going to change up some things and I would like to see Wojo show more of an ability to adapt in real time. So far he's been mediocre at best.
And definitely......Go MU!!!

[1SE]

Soso-jos are the silent majority.

[willie warrior]

I'm solidly in the So-So Jo camp. He's a good guy who isn't a terrible coach by any means, but if either party decided to move on at the end of this year, I would be fine with that.

Agree with fluffy. No question he is a good recruiter, but his on floor coaching is mediocre. I do not buy that MU is trending up and use last year as evidence. The end of year swoon and Hausergate are on Wojo. Dont believe he has won a dance game and even failed to make the dance several of his years. While his incoming class for next year looks good on paper, he is also losing a lot. And I see a lot of pain next year when losing Howard. No go to guy will create more losses.
Think it is dumb to classify 2 camps, pro and no. Likely 90 to 95% of posters here want MU to have consistent high level success. So people should subscribe to that and recognize that after 5.5 years of Wojo, that has not been achieved. He may be a great guy personally, but he is the coach getting paid a ton with lots of nice resources, and is not taking team to a higher level.

[willie warrior]

First off, I wasn't dividing " people " into two groups because I don't believe ProJos exist.

Second, I don't believe there are that many extreme NoJos out there. 

Third, I'm not trying to flatter or dismiss any group of people.

What I am trying to do is have a reasonable debate based on agreed upon facts, minus the extremely negative views  and comments coming specifically from a small number of posters who happen to be NoJos.

As far as anointing myself a spokesperson of thoughtful reasonable and virtuous people, that's just B.S., but I guess it's the best you could come up with to try to get away from the point I was trying to make.

What about the negative comments of some of the pro joes toward the nojoers.

[jesmu84]

There are very few trolls. Yeah there was that guy Cheesy who was sticking it to us about  not recruiting Tyler Herro and once in a blue moon a drunk badger type shows up. 

Most people who you think are trolls are just guys dug into their position, or super spirited types , looking for data to support their view point. Ugly losses reinforces their point of view. When we win big, the guys with the optimistic view do their own version of the naked touchdown dance.

Most Everyone posting here wants the best for the program.

I disagree.

Look objectively at the board after losses. Unabashed negativity.

Look objectively at the board after wins. Measured responses.

There is little comparison.

[brewcity77]

Frustrating as the Creighton game was, I'll happily trade an L at Creighton for a home court W over a Top 10 ranked blue blood every year, regardless of who our coach is at any given time.  If it was inevitable that'd we'd go 1-1 for our first two conf games even before we played them, no MU fan, let alone Scooper, would wish those W's were reversed.

This. I'd obviously prefer a closer margin, but the metrics also punish you more for home losses, so if you will split decisions like that, it's better to win at home.

[muguru]

I'm going to use a game that was played last night as a perfect example of my biggest frustration with Wojo(in game adjustments)...Oregon St-Colorado. Oregon St was struggling defensively early on. So Wayne Tinkle after a time out switches to a 1-3-1 zone. After that Colorado looked like they had never played basketball before. Completely changed the game and OSU went on to win.

Those are the things I think Wojo lacks that I find most frustrating. The ability to adapt/switch like that in game.

[4everwarriors]

MWGA=make Wojo great again, aina?

[1SE]

I'm going to use a game that was played last night as a perfect example of my biggest frustration with Wojo(in game adjustments)...Oregon St-Colorado. Oregon St was struggling defensively early on. So Wayne Tinkle after a time out switches to a 1-3-1 zone. After that Colorado looked like they had never played basketball before. Completely changed the game and OSU went on to win.

Those are the things I think Wojo lacks that I find most frustrating. The ability to adapt/switch like that in game.

Yes - I agree - so many times when the other team is going on a run/we're on a drought, the camera shots of Wojo just show him blankly staring like a deer in headlights. There is rarely a plan B in-game other than "Markus, go be an all-American".

But also giving credit where credit is due, I think one of the biggest gripes of the soso and nojos has historically been out atrocious our defenses have been. This year is a marked difference - both in terms of the computer numbers but also in terms of the "feel" that we can stop/hold teams even if we're not firing on all cylinders on O. That represents a real step forward IMO.

I really wanted to become a projo last year, but the end of season collapse/hausershima destroyed all the faith that the mid-season run had instilled. I'd like to believe again, but this year has to be a step forward - and a step forward, to me, means winning a NCAA game. Treading water is mediocrity.

[WarriorFan]

There are a lot of different aspects to being a top level NCAA D1 coach.  In general I'm pro-Wojo because he's winning and running a clean program.  My ratings are as follows:

Recruiting         A
Clean Program  A
Internal politics, dealing with administration, securing internal sponsorship (generally summed up as a$$ kissing but entirely necessary)   A
Player Fitness   B-  (I question the quantity of hand injuries, and the fitness level of the team, albeit less this year than last)
Game Strategy   C  Seems to me kind of hit and miss
Game Coaching   C-  Doesn't adjust quickly or in impactful manner frequently enough
Press and PR        B-   Caspar Milquetoast, and very little national presence
NCAA Tournament Success   C  getting there but not winning
BEAST Success      B+
Beats Wisconsin   C+ . 3-3 but the win last year when they were ranked 12 was nice

[The Sultan]

Wojo knows basketball. I think he just stubbornly sticks to his plan.

[1SE]

There are a lot of different aspects to being a top level NCAA D1 coach.  In general I'm pro-Wojo because he's winning and running a clean program.  My ratings are as follows:

Recruiting         A
Clean Program  A
Internal politics, dealing with administration, securing internal sponsorship (generally summed up as a$$ kissing but entirely necessary)   A
Player Fitness   B-  (I question the quantity of hand injuries, and the fitness level of the team, albeit less this year than last)
Game Strategy   C  Seems to me kind of hit and miss
Game Coaching   C-  Doesn't adjust quickly or in impactful manner frequently enough
Press and PR        B-   Caspar Milquetoast, and very little national presence
NCAA Tournament Success   C  getting there but not winning
BEAST Success      B+
Beats Wisconsin   C+ . 3-3 but the win last year when they were ranked 12 was nice

Recruiting is solid but an "A"? He's had 1 top=10 class (2015), and two other top-40 classes years (2020 and 2016). Mane would be a huge get (and another top-10 class) but what kind of grade would you give him if he had top-40 classes each year? I'd say more like "B+"