Crowder & Hayward to HOF

[Jay Bee]

Who did the work that generated the revenue to pay for that foreign trip?

The donors that paid for it. Understand foreign trip funding.

[Pakuni]

The donors that paid for it. Understand foreign trip funding.

Why do the donors care?

[lawdog77]

Just my $.02, profiting off their own likeness is OK, as long as it does not damage the school brand or intellectual property. Giving the athletes a % from video games=good. Allowing Sacar to do an advertisement for a cannabis dispensary, or even a rival school=bad

[MU82]

Just my $.02, profiting off their own likeness is OK, as long as it does not damage the school brand or intellectual property. Giving the athletes a % from video games=good. Allowing Sacar to do an advertisement for a cannabis dispensary, or even a rival school=bad

That's a reasonable place to start, lawdog.

Any change in this realm will be incremental, so starting by giving the athletes a percentage of video games or advertisements that use their likenesses to directly profit seems extremely fair ... as well as very American.

[Jay Bee]

Why do the donors care?

Do you understand how foreign tours are funded?

[Pakuni]

Do you understand how foreign tours are funded?

Do you understand my question?

[Billy Hoyle]

Why do the donors care?

the same reason donors give huge dollar donations to the basketball program: to make it better and for their own edification.

[Cheeks]

That's a reasonable place to start, lawdog.

Any change in this realm will be incremental, so starting by giving the athletes a percentage of video games or advertisements that use their likenesses to directly profit seems extremely fair ... as well as very American.

With all due respect, that is your opinion and you do not speak for every American. 

Question, does the QB get more for his likeness in video games then the punter?  What if the player is kicked off the team for raping someone, does he owe the money back?  Does an OHio State player get more than App State player or Prairie View? 

Pandora’s box is going to explode....give an inch take a 100 miles. 

[Cheeks]

Widespread decriminalization of drugs has not happened, so that's a strawman argument.

And frankly, the latter doesn't have anything to do with the simple reality that universities are able to make money off the likenesses of their athletes while the athletes cannot do the same. There is no logical place for the argument that Markus Howard's face should not belong to him.

It does belong to him.  I’m guessing that Fireman Andy cannot put his face out there publicly in an advertising situation with your fireman gear or sitting on an engine without the permission of the county, city or other body.  Rules exist.  Now if Andy by himself wants to do that, ok....but your aren’t a public figure, no celebrity at all (no offense meant).

In college athletics they also exist not only to control athletes from hawking products that are harmful, derogatory, etc, but also to keep competitive balance in recruiting.  When you graduate from college knows your socks off, do what you want.  Markus value BY GOING to school and appearing in a MU uniform is far greater than if he just went overseas, etc.  Should he be required to split that revenue with the school for giving him the platform or is this a case where he built it all by himself?

[Pakuni]

the same reason donors give huge dollar donations to the basketball program: to make it better and for their own edification.

You mean the efforts and results produced by the players leads to income for the athletic department?
Well I'll be.

[brewcity77]

It does belong to him.  I’m guessing that Fireman Andy cannot put his face out there publicly in an advertising situation with your fireman gear or sitting on an engine without the permission of the county, city or other body.  Rules exist.  Now if Andy by himself wants to do that, ok....but your aren’t a public figure, no celebrity at all (no offense meant).

In college athletics they also exist not only to control athletes from hawking products that are harmful, derogatory, etc, but also to keep competitive balance in recruiting.  When you graduate from college knows your socks off, do what you want.  Markus value BY GOING to school and appearing in a MU uniform is far greater than if he just went overseas, etc.  Should he be required to split that revenue with the school for giving him the platform or is this a case where he built it all by himself?

As a fireman? Yes, that's allowed. As a member of a department, you do have to ask. But this is a false equivalency because Markus can't do it as an unaffiliated basketball player or with permission. So the argument you're trying to make is still hollow.

Could the school request a cut if he's in uniform? Could there be a revenue sharing model between the universities and athletes or all athletes in a program or an even larger union be negotiated? Sure, and I'm glad you're open to those considerations. Those are all things that should be discussed.

But to get there, you have to be willing to have the discussion.

[Pakuni]

In college athletics they also exist not only to control athletes from hawking products that are harmful, derogatory, etc, but also to keep competitive balance in recruiting.

1. Are we really worried about college athletes endorsing porn sites, Marlboro and OxyContin? This is the reddest of red herrings.
2. There's already no competitive balance in recruiting. You're defending a non-existent principle.

[brewcity77]

You're defending a non-existent principle.

I think you've pretty much summed up his entire ethos.

[MU82]

With all due respect, that is your opinion and you do not speak for every American. 

Question, does the QB get more for his likeness in video games then the punter?  What if the player is kicked off the team for raping someone, does he owe the money back?  Does an OHio State player get more than App State player or Prairie View? 

Pandora’s box is going to explode....give an inch take a 100 miles.

Ridiculous. Ignoring.

[TheyWereCones]

So again, there are already places and avenues that exist for people who want to profit off their own likeness right now.  Why do we have to force an organization that's not interested in that (since it comes with a lot of other consequences) to change?  Why can't the players just go to one of those other avenues?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

So again, there are already places and avenues that exist for people who want to profit off their own likeness right now.  Why do we have to force an organization that's not interested in that (since it comes with a lot of other consequences) to change?  Why can't the players just go to one of those other avenues?

Who's forcing them to change?

[MU82]

So again, there are already places and avenues that exist for people who want to profit off their own likeness right now.  Why do we have to force an organization that's not interested in that (since it comes with a lot of other consequences) to change?  Why can't the players just go to one of those other avenues?

Which places do college athletes get to go to profit off their own likeness? I fully allow that I might have missed that list, as I have not read every post in this thread.

[Uncle Rico]

So again, there are already places and avenues that exist for people who want to profit off their own likeness right now.  Why do we have to force an organization that's not interested in that (since it comes with a lot of other consequences) to change?  Why can't the players just go to one of those other avenues?

I agree.  That’s why I hope the NCAA ceases to exist in my lifetime.  It boggles my mind in 2019 we haven’t developed a better system for developing athletes than AAU, travel teams, high school and college.  And for what?  Amateurism that’s a sham.  If we cared about student athletes across the board, nobody would care about wins and losses but about GPA and post-graduate success.  But high graduation rates and molding quality individuals is secondary to winning tournament games

[Cheeks]

1. Are we really worried about college athletes endorsing porn sites, Marlboro and OxyContin? This is the reddest of red herrings.
2. There's already no competitive balance in recruiting. You're defending a non-existent principle.

Really...you don’t think Liberty or BYU might have a problem with an athlete pushing Trojans or porn sites?  You are kidding, right.

Or pushing Gambling sites.  Come on, you are better than that and it is no red herring.  Hell, in today’s climate what if one of them decided to support a political candidate or cause as a paid endorser....oh I can see the division already erupting here.

Your second argument...that is a red herring.  The NCAA is trying to prevent the extreme Wild West, if you go with your logic why have any rules at all...I mean what’s the point?  Fortunately the powers that be have said there will be some rules and people can whine all they wish about them, but they will exist to at least attempt some form of balance perceived or otherwise

[Cheeks]

As a fireman? Yes, that's allowed. As a member of a department, you do have to ask. But this is a false equivalency because Markus can't do it as an unaffiliated basketball player or with permission. So the argument you're trying to make is still hollow.

Could the school request a cut if he's in uniform? Could there be a revenue sharing model between the universities and athletes or all athletes in a program or an even larger union be negotiated? Sure, and I'm glad you're open to those considerations. Those are all things that should be discussed.

But to get there, you have to be willing to have the discussion.

Not comparing the two directly.  I’m trying to show that there are rules for a lot of things.  You have rules around your likeness despite “owning it”...you really cannot use in any way you wish...there are rules or repercussions. They may not be the same rules, but they do exist.  Lots of places have rules about all kinds of things, including your face, what you can say, where or how you can say it.  The ncaa is no different, doesn’t mean the rules are the same...which wasn’t the point....but rules exist all over.

Why enter into a negotiation when there is no need to?  What are the players giving up?  A negotiation is a two way street, what are they forfeiting as a result of this negotiation?

[Cheeks]

Which places do college athletes get to go to profit off their own likeness? I fully allow that I might have missed that list, as I have not read every post in this thread.

Which place are normal college students treated with the benefits of college student athletes? 


In the meantime, how many regular students get to INCREASE their value sometimes to the tune of millions of dollars by going to college?  Not many. 

College provides incredible upside for most of these guys with nowhere near the upside for the lion’s share of regular students.

[Cheeks]

I agree.  That’s why I hope the NCAA ceases to exist in my lifetime.  It boggles my mind in 2019 we haven’t developed a better system for developing athletes than AAU, travel teams, high school and college.  And for what?  Amateurism that’s a sham.  If we cared about student athletes across the board, nobody would care about wins and losses but about GPA and post-graduate success.  But high graduation rates and molding quality individuals is secondary to winning tournament games

Those models exist or are developing, but this far haven’t proven to be better.  If a kid wants to not play college basketball, he can do that today.  The trade off

Play in front of nobody
Education not paid for
Get paid to play
Don’t have to go to school


If it fully goes the way you hope in your lifetime, it will cease to exist at Marquette which would be a shame...but some people love that idea, I guess.  Schools will get out of athletic endeavor in droves.

[brewcity77]

Not comparing the two directly.  I’m trying to show that there are rules for a lot of things.  You have rules around your likeness despite “owning it”...you really cannot use in any way you wish...there are rules or repercussions.

No, this is not true. I can do what I choose with my likeness, the entity I work for can do what they choose with their trademark.

If the players are not allowed to do what they choose with their likeness, it's an apples to toasters comparison.

[Uncle Rico]

Those models exist or are developing, but this far haven’t proven to be better.  If a kid wants to not play college basketball, he can do that today.  The trade off

Play in front of nobody
Education not paid for
Get paid to play
Don’t have to go to school


If it fully goes the way you hope in your lifetime, it will cease to exist at Marquette which would be a shame...but some people love that idea, I guess.  Schools will get out of athletic endeavor in droves.

Schools can remain involved with athletics if they so choose.  If they get out, then it simply proves amateurism is a sham. 

[TheyWereCones]

Which places do college athletes get to go to profit off their own likeness? I fully allow that I might have missed that list, as I have not read every post in this thread.

"People" can do that overseas or anywhere else outside of college basketball.  You added "college athlete."  This is such a big government approach.  If you don't like something, force organizations to change instead of let the market speak for itself or have other entrepreneurial enterprises compete.  If there's is such a market, go ahead, let's see the g-league or whatever else become the Netflix to the NCAA as Blockbuster.

To be honest, my biggest complaint with this whole conversation is the often extreme omission or exaggerated downplaying of the compensation that IS received.  The compensation they get is both consensual and overall hugely beneficial for a plethora of reasons.  If there was a way to make profiting off of likeness easy without destroying the sport and having shoe companies owning college basketball, I don't think I'd care all that much.  But I don't see that as reality.  I think it would totally mess up the game.  I would rather see a stricter enforcement of the current rules.  Obviously this is a touchy, controversial subject and many of us will likely need to agree to disagree.  But at a minimum I really hope people can agree that they get very good compensation as it is today and that ultimately they don't HAVE to play college sports.