Optimistic About Wojo

[Texas Western]

This is the worst MU team in 51 years...what matter if it's a sixth place ribbon or tenth? MU is horrible, top to bottom. Time for the reset for the future. For whatever reasons, some of the best scorers and an early Wojo recruit jumped shipped as did three pretty good signed recruits who were offensively inclined. Wojo had a part in that, fair or not. His first year plan was not good--as he had no back-up plan. Sorry, that's on him as he inherited the dysfunction before him, and he should have known it. Say what you will about Buzz's misses, but he moved on his mistakes right away. It is too bad these all ended in roster voids.

Early on, it was about creating a brotherhood for the incumbents. Build a new locker room and culture, etc. Well, a good portion of those players are already gone, and three more are about to graduate. Wojo gave some feel good speeches. Hasn't worked out yet. It will be a full five year plan here at this point, so be patient.

Then, it was all about individual skills workouts in the summer versus strength and conditioning under Buzz. With Todd Smith, this was a strength of MU's program.That is obviously lacking in the BE grind. The previous ACC where Wojo came from was a finesse league.The BE is a physical league and called that way, and the round robin format where coaches adjust is something he and his staff have not caught up with yet.

The new summer rules allowed more time to work on team offense and defense, something a new coach should spend an inordinate time on going into his first season anyway. It became evident early on in the Cupcake games that the defense was substandard...and the offense is looking like the worst in MU's statistical history, if not in the Big East's. The emphasis on the personal workouts doesn't seem to be paying team or individual dividends. He has made some very good adjustments on defense that have been impressive.

The last is school fit. The new President and new Big 4 Consultant Chair made this call. Some early on who know the program pushed hard for Shaka. Close but no cigar. Some in the know and/or in the AD, wanted Martin...some wanted some other experienced head coaches we all heard. In the end, Wojo gave good PowerPoint. He is a great school fit and program builder, and leaders have a lot of confidence in him and his resume as they reset the university and conference. It will take a full five years at this point...and my major question as it has been all along, is he going to or be allowed to recruit south of the Cheddar Line? HE was a great get. But, The Big East is an urban, physical and athletic league, and the HE class success needs to be followed up on. It is a head scratcher that MU is backing off a talent like Stone while Bucky is willing to? Do the newcomers know what it takes to win at Marquette and the Big East?

Rip away...but playing to win now with seniors as the primary focus will end the same as playing the future now for experience and evaluation this year, but MU will be in a better place tomorrow. In the gloom, obviously doubts abound, but there is a lot to improve upon. Pretty sure Wojo knows that as his emotions show and as he matures. Buzz is a soldier of fortune.  Wojo is a program builder who needs time.

I agree with quite a bit of this post. In particular one key point. That is the President and Chairman of the Trustees hired who THEY felt comfortable with. At the time they made the hire I felt they should have hired someone who the PLAYERS felt comfortable with. Big difference of perspective and Personalities. It is pretty clear to me that Wojo does not have the maturity and experience to be successful in a program like ours.  We are paying a big price for the learning curve with him.

[GGGG]

In 1987-88 (Dukiet and MU's worst in 50+ years) we were 10-18. We were 9-7 at home, 1-11 on the road, and 1-6 vs NCAA tournament teams. We had 3 wins against what I would call "cupcakes" (Canisius, Hartford and at Stetson). Other wins were against Xavier (26-4, NCAA), Northwestern, Miami, Fl, Wake Forest, Dayton, Air Force and Western Michigan.

Outside of Xavier, Miami was the only win against a team who ended up with a winning record.

[MUfan12]

It is pretty clear to me that Wojo does not have the maturity and experience to be successful in a program like ours.  We are paying a big price for the learning curve with him.

Hilarious.

[MerrittsMustache]

Excuses are only good for the person who makes them.  They don't do me any good.

It's incredible to me to read the length you go to, to paint such a bleak picture of what Wojo walked into.  Duane, JJJ, Burton and Luke are all Top 60 recruits - and all should be solid players by sophomore year.  It's on Wojo to coach that development, as the talent is there.  Wojo started right playing JJJ 30+ but then he got all wishy washy with JJJ's playing time.  Never maxed Burton's minutes.  There were talented resources on hand and Wojo ultimately hasn't and didn't deploy them efficiently/effectively.  And, it is reflected in our record.

Would have been much better served to pull a Tom Crean in the year of the Big Three and just roll with Duane, JJJ and Burton right from the start 26+ minutes per game.  I don't care if JJJ/Burton struggle with "Wojo's Way" or whatever, those guys are/were the 3 most talented guys on your roster (along with Carlino) and the future of the program.  Carlino has been good as a basketball player this year, yet in terms of the big picture - I feel his one year rental took valuable minutes away from JJJ.

This whole 5 year play Wojo spoke of would have been better served developing the existing assets within the program, rather than losing 2 of them, and limiting a 3rd to bizarre playing time inconsistency.  

Carlino was brought in to be the teams #1 scoring option and to take a bulk of the minutes at the point. He was running the point when the season began with JJJ at the 2. Unfortunately, Carlino proved to be a better player off the ball and JJJ simply wasn't getting it done, especially defensively, and Derrick, the team's best defender and only true PG, was eventually inserted into the starting line-up and JJJ came off the bench. Keep in mind that JJJ started the first 3 games of the season and then games 7-8. He was given an opportunity to take a big chunk of perimeter minutes but he didn't produce on both ends of the floor.

He has definitely played better in the last couple of games and will likely see his minutes increase as long as he continues to do so and continues to practice well. He still needs to gamble less on D and play more under control offensively, especially when he drives.

If you want to pin anything on Wojo, you can blame him for believing that Carlino could run the point and that JJJ would live up to his HS ranking. Neither of those happened and the coaching staff had to adjust.

[MerrittsMustache]

I agree with quite a bit of this post. In particular one key point. That is the President and Chairman of the Trustees hired who THEY felt comfortable with. At the time they made the hire I felt they should have hired someone who the PLAYERS felt comfortable with. Big difference of perspective and Personalities. It is pretty clear to me that Wojo does not have the maturity and experience to be successful in a program like ours.  We are paying a big price for the learning curve with him.

That price? A top 10 recruiting class.

[GGGG]

I agree with quite a bit of this post. In particular one key point. That is the President and Chairman of the Trustees hired who THEY felt comfortable with. At the time they made the hire I felt they should have hired someone who the PLAYERS felt comfortable with. Big difference of perspective and Personalities. It is pretty clear to me that Wojo does not have the maturity and experience to be successful in a program like ours.  We are paying a big price for the learning curve with him.

That is absolutely silly.

Marquette has had better success hiring coaches in the exact mold of Wojo, assistants at other top basketball schools, than hiring experienced coaches.  Do you realize that Wojo is older, and has more experience than either Kevin O'Neill or Tom Crean do when Marquette hired them?

And are you saying the players aren't comfortable with Wojo now?

[Texas Western]

That is absolutely silly.

Marquette has had better success hiring coaches in the exact mold of Wojo, assistants at other top basketball schools, than hiring experienced coaches.  Do you realize that Wojo is older, and has more experience than either Kevin O'Neill or Tom Crean do when Marquette hired them?

And are you saying the players aren't comfortable with Wojo now?

Maybe maturity is not the correct word. Wojo was in one specific basketball system for so many years that he does not have a broader perspective of things. I have seen this so many times in the business world. A guy comes from Big Company X to medium size company Y and the body rejects the organ.

Yes, I believe that the players  are not comfortable with , and do not have much enthusiasm for Wojo because they don't trust him.  Players want to know that the coach has their back.  I don't see him as the type of coach that players will walk through walls for. Kids are often more insightful than they are given credit for. The fact that the kids play hard speaks more to their own qualities than to any motivation from the coach in my view. 

[willie warrior]

In 1987-88 (Dukiet and MU's worst in 50+ years) we were 10-18. We were 9-7 at home, 1-11 on the road, and 1-6 vs NCAA tournament teams. We had 3 wins against what I would call "cupcakes" (Canisius, Hartford and at Stetson). Other wins were against Xavier (26-4, NCAA), Northwestern, Miami, Fl, Wake Forest, Dayton, Air Force and Western Michigan.

This year we are 11-13, 8-6 at home, 2-1 (N) and 1-6 on the road. Based on current bracketology, we are 1-9 against NCAA tournament teams. We have 5 wins (Tenn. Martin, NJIT, Alabama A+M, North Dakota and Morgan State) and 1 loss (Omaha) against cupcakes, Other wins are against Georgia Tech, Tennessee, Arizona St, Providence, Creighton and at Seton Hall.

Summary: This year's team has a slightly better record and has played more top flight teams. They also played more cupcakes and 17/24 of their games on home or neutral courts (16/28 in 87-88).

Looking at it in context I'd say this year's team is, right now, a little better - but they're leaking oil. I don't expect them to lose out but if they do it's a coin flip.

I would agree with this Lenny. My only point was to remind people that this year was reminiscent of the Dukiet era. Dukiet had some good players, he was a bad coach. I sent many letters to Cords asking for a change in direction back then. But for people to say that our competition is SOOO much better is not necessarily so. We played lots of good programs back then, just like now. And we played cupcakes back then just like we do now. Now somebody defines cupcake as a team that does not make the dance. IMO, That is dumb. Can't remember, but back then maybe only half the number made the dance.

This year's team should be better than that 87-88 team with the talent we have. This year we have 7 top 100 guys, back then who knows? Different ranking systems now vs. then. If I were to guess, we probably had 3 top 100 players: Smith, Sims and possibly Reeder.
Anybody that wants to excuse this year's performance because competition is much greater, IMO is just grasping at straws. Our talent is better, but our record will likely be similar. To me, this year is reminiscent of Dukiet's teams--getting their ass handed to them when they should not. Is Wojo a better coach--he should be, and he has former good players on his staff, a greater budget, better connections, better resources, etc. Maybe some of our top 100 talent is exaggerated, based on their performance this year. I guess we can thank Buzz for much of what is going on this year.

[connie]

Please.  This is all just to lay the groundwork for next years' theme:  "Wojo can't develop talent."

[NersEllenson]

Carlino was brought in to be the teams #1 scoring option and to take a bulk of the minutes at the point. He was running the point when the season began with JJJ at the 2. Unfortunately, Carlino proved to be a better player off the ball and JJJ simply wasn't getting it done, especially defensively, and Derrick, the team's best defender and only true PG, was eventually inserted into the starting line-up and JJJ came off the bench. Keep in mind that JJJ started the first 3 games of the season and then games 7-8. He was given an opportunity to take a big chunk of perimeter minutes but he didn't produce on both ends of the floor. Look at his numbers in those first 8 games...

20.3 min, 5.8 pts, 40.0/23.5/71.4, 1.6 reb, 1.3 asts, 1.4 TOs
(remove the UT-Martin opener and these numbers drop quite a bit)

JJJ had the chance but didn't take advantage of it. He has definitely played better in the last couple of games and will likely see his minutes increase as long as he continues to do so and continues to practice well. He still needs to gamble less on D and play more under control offensively, especially when he drives.

If you want to pin anything on Wojo, you can blame him for believing that Carlino could run the point and that JJJ would live up to his HS ranking. Neither of those happened and the coaching staff had to adjust.

Derrick was hurting the first few games - that's why he was limited - not because Wojo wanted to play Carlino at PG.  Hell if Wojo really wanted to play Carlino at PG, he would have and could have at any point this season, and chose not to.  And as you look at things, TN Martin is ranked 163 by Pomeroy, we are 107.  We blew them out.  WAs never a game.  Funny that coincided with Derrick being relegated to 13 minutes.

As for your parsing of JJJ's first 8 games to come up with your data - you'll notice JJJ played a whopping 9 minutes in our 3rd game against Nebraska Omaha, after playing 30+ in the first two games.  So JJJ, like many wasn't very good against OSU, but was VERY good in Game 1 against TN Martin, all of a sudden by Game 3 is reduced to 9 minutes?  What explains this reduction?  Derrick returns to full health and 35 minutes.  And what happens?  With his elite defense we get blown by repeatedly off of dribble drive penetration and we lose that game at home.  That is the season and my beef in a nutshell - limiting JJJ's minutes and maxing Derricks (while we lose).

Furthermore in parsing your data to the first 8 games, that includes the whopping 10 minutes JJJ got against Wisconsin.  15 against Tennessee (a game which he was playing well but still didn't "earn" more minutes)

And then of course Arizona State, is Game 9, and our best win of the year and JJJ plays wonderfully.  

So I could parse data and say that in our first 9 games, the only 3 in which JJJ got 30+ minutes he averaged 15.6ppg on 54.5% shooting.

[jesmu84]

That is absolutely silly.

Marquette has had better success hiring coaches in the exact mold of Wojo, assistants at other top basketball schools, than hiring experienced coaches.  Do you realize that Wojo is older, and has more experience than either Kevin O'Neill or Tom Crean do when Marquette hired them?

And are you saying the players aren't comfortable with Wojo now?

I had TW on ignore, but he was quoted. And, I concur with your question, Sultan. There were a few players ready to walk out the door at the end of last season. Wojo comes in, speaks to them, and none leave. Sounds exactly like they hired a coach the players felt comfortable with.

[Texas Western]

I would agree with this Lenny. My only point was to remind people that this year was reminiscent of the Dukiet era. Dukiet had some good players, he was a bad coach. I sent many letters to Cords asking for a change in direction back then. But for people to say that our competition is SOOO much better is not necessarily so. We played lots of good programs back then, just like now. And we played cupcakes back then just like we do now. Now somebody defines cupcake as a team that does not make the dance. IMO, That is dumb. Can't remember, but back then maybe only half the number made the dance.

This year's team should be better than that 87-88 team with the talent we have. This year we have 7 top 100 guys, back then who knows? Different ranking systems now vs. then. If I were to guess, we probably had 3 top 100 players: Smith, Sims and possibly Reeder.
Anybody that wants to excuse this year's performance because competition is much greater, IMO is just grasping at straws. Our talent is better, but our record will likely be similar. To me, this year is reminiscent of Dukiet's teams--getting their ass handed to them when they should not. Is Wojo a better coach--he should be, and he has former good players on his staff, a greater budget, better connections, better resources, etc. Maybe some of our top 100 talent is exaggerated, based on their performance this year. I guess we can thank Buzz for much of what is going on this year.

One important factor that needs to be taken into the equation, is that Dukiet took over our program at a time that it was still in the after glow of being a blue blood. So those years were a huge trainwreck and it took us many years for the program to fully recover. Our program is strong enough now to absorb last years lousy performance. However, I am concerned that Wojo keeps on the Dukiet path and that we are sunk again for years.

[Lennys Tap]

Outside of Xavier, Miami was the only win against a team who ended up with a winning record.

Yes, 2-12 against .500 or better non cupcakes. This year 5-11. Better, yes - but still awful. And I don't like the trend. We're 1-8 in our last 9 against .500+ teams and the 1 win was against a team that's imploded.

Right now we're better than that historically awful team. But when people suggest contextually that this year's team would have "wiped the floor" against that 87-88 schedule they're nuts. Maybe they're 13-15 or 14-14 but that's not much of a floor wiping.

[BM1090]

Derrick was hurting the first few games - that's why he was limited - not because Wojo wanted to play Carlino at PG.  Hell if Wojo really wanted to play Carlino at PG, he would have and could have at any point this season, and chose not to.  And as you look at things, TN Martin is ranked 163 by Pomeroy, we are 107.  We blew them out.  WAs never a game.  Funny that coincided with Derrick being relegated to 13 minutes.

As for your parsing of JJJ's first 8 games to come up with your data - you'll notice JJJ played a whopping 9 minutes in our 3rd game against Nebraska Omaha, after playing 30+ in the first two games.  So JJJ, like many wasn't very good against OSU, but was VERY good in Game 1 against TN Martin, all of a sudden by Game 3 is reduced to 9 minutes?  What explains this reduction?  Derrick returns to full health and 35 minutes.  And what happens?  With his elite defense we get blown by repeatedly off of dribble drive penetration and we lose that game at home.  That is the season and my beef in a nutshell - limiting JJJ's minutes and maxing Derricks (while we lose).

Furthermore in parsing your data to the first 8 games, that includes the whopping 10 minutes JJJ got against Wisconsin.  15 against Tennessee (a game which he was playing well but still didn't "earn" more minutes)

And then of course Arizona State, is Game 9, and our best win of the year and JJJ plays wonderfully.  

So I could parse data and say that in our first 9 games, the only 3 in which JJJ got 30+ minutes he averaged 15.6ppg on 54.5% shooting.

Arizona State definitely is not our best win of the year. Providence and Tennessee are better and Seton Hall probably is too.

[Texas Western]

I had TW on ignore, but he was quoted. And, I concur with your question, Sultan. There were a few players ready to walk out the door at the end of last season. Wojo comes in, speaks to them, and none leave. Sounds exactly like they hired a coach the players felt comfortable with.

And then he promptly breached their trust. First thing he did out of the gates was bring in a player with a checkered history at a position we were very deep at already.

[MerrittsMustache]

Derrick was hurting the first few games - that's why he was limited - not because Wojo wanted to play Carlino at PG.  Hell if Wojo really wanted to play Carlino at PG, he would have and could have at any point this season, and chose not to.  And as you look at things, TN Martin is ranked 163 by Pomeroy, we are 107.  We blew them out.  WAs never a game.  Funny that coincided with Derrick being relegated to 13 minutes.

As for your parsing of JJJ's first 8 games to come up with your data - you'll notice JJJ played a whopping 9 minutes in our 3rd game against Nebraska Omaha, after playing 30+ in the first two games.  So JJJ, like many wasn't very good against OSU, but was VERY good in Game 1 against TN Martin, all of a sudden by Game 3 is reduced to 9 minutes?  What explains this reduction?  Derrick returns to full health and 35 minutes.  And what happens?  With his elite defense we get blown by repeatedly off of dribble drive penetration and we lose that game at home.  That is the season and my beef in a nutshell - limiting JJJ's minutes and maxing Derricks (while we lose).

Furthermore in parsing your data to the first 8 games, that includes the whopping 10 minutes JJJ got against Wisconsin.  15 against Tennessee (a game which he was playing well but still didn't "earn" more minutes)

And then of course Arizona State, is Game 9, and our best win of the year and JJJ plays wonderfully.  

So I could parse data and say that in our first 9 games, the only 3 in which JJJ got 30+ minutes he averaged 15.6ppg on 54.5% shooting.

I chose the first 8 games because JJJ was at least a part-time starter for those 8 games. Seems like a logical place to draw the line considering my point was that JJJ was given the opportunity to start but didn't take advantage of it. Also, I removed the stats chunk of my post about 30 seconds after I posted it because I didn't really think it was relevant.

Go ahead. Say the same things over and over and keep telling yourself that you're not completely and utterly clueless.

Apologies to others on this board for getting sucked back into Ners' nonsense.

[MerrittsMustache]

Arizona State definitely is not our best win of the year. Providence and Tennessee are better and Seton Hall probably is too.

MU's best win (in terms of RPI):

25 Providence
69 Seton Hall
83 Tennessee
99 Arizona State
104 Georgia Tech
 

[GGGG]

Maybe maturity is not the correct word. Wojo was in one specific basketball system for so many years that he does not have a broader perspective of things. I have seen this so many times in the business world. A guy comes from Big Company X to medium size company Y and the body rejects the organ.

OK, I can conceptually agree with you here.  I guess we will have to wait to see if that is the case with Wojo, but frankly that may be the reason why Coach K's assistants haven't been wildly successful elsewhere.  Diversity in background is important, and his disciples usually have not had that.  Crean and O'Neill were both at multiple institutions as assistants before getting to MU.

Yes, I believe that the players  are not comfortable with , and do not have much enthusiasm for Wojo because they don't trust him.  Players want to know that the coach has their back.  I don't see him as the type of coach that players will walk through walls for. Kids are often more insightful than they are given credit for. The fact that the kids play hard speaks more to their own qualities than to any motivation from the coach in my view.  

Do you *know* this to be the case?  Or are you merely speculating?  If it is the latter, on what basis are you making that speculation?

I guess we will find out after the season is over, but it seems to me that if that is indeed the case, that a number of players might be leaving right?

[MerrittsMustache]

And then he promptly breached their trust. First thing he did out of the gates was bring in a player with a checkered history at a position we were very deep at already.

What about Carlino's history is checkered? That he was mocked and bullied so frequently by Reeves Nelson that he left UCLA?

[NersEllenson]

I had TW on ignore, but he was quoted. And, I concur with your question, Sultan. There were a few players ready to walk out the door at the end of last season. Wojo comes in, speaks to them, and none leave. Sounds exactly like they hired a coach the players felt comfortable with.

They bought in initially, yet 3 left within 7 months of the hire.  Call it 2 players if you want to believe Mayo couldn't return/admin didn't allow him to return to the program.  

[NersEllenson]

MU's best win (in terms of RPI):

25 Providence
69 Seton Hall
83 Tennessee
99 Arizona State
104 Georgia Tech
 

You could make a case for Providence win being the best win of the year - that I can go along with.  To suggest Seton Hall and Tennessee were better than Arizona State is ludicrous.  Ken Pom ratings are A LOT more relevant and accurate than RPI.  You do know RPI had Green Bay as the Number 1 team in the country for awhile early this year, correct?

[Lennys Tap]

And then he promptly breached their trust. First thing he did out of the gates was bring in a player with a checkered history at a position we were very deep at already.

Right. Marquette had way too many shooters. We were knee deep in them.

[Golden Avalanche]

Yes, I believe that the players  are not comfortable with , and do not have much enthusiasm for Wojo because they don't trust him.  Players want to know that the coach has their back.  I don't see him as the type of coach that players will walk through walls for. Kids are often more insightful than they are given credit for. The fact that the kids play hard speaks more to their own qualities than to any motivation from the coach in my view. 

All Wojo will do is put his hand through a wall to exemplify what he wants everyone to be united in accomplishing. If a player can't show even a smidgeon of that kind of dedication, then let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

[Texas Western]

Right. Marquette had way too many shooters. We were knee deep in them.

Mayo, Duane, Burton, Dawson all had decent shots. JJJ is a slasher. Plenty of guard talent in my view didn't need any more.

[tower912]

http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/1987

87-88 Synopsis.