Is this fair?

[B. McBannerson]

No one chooses to be gay.

Most don't choose, but some do.  Read the literature.

[forgetful]

Well said.

Definition of male = XY.  Definition of female = XX.


For those saying it is just high school sports, what are you insinuating?  High school sports is often the last bastion of competition athletes have.  Even those that are lucky enough to play in college sports know the importance high school sports played in their lives.  One of my kids played for a state championship and it was incredible the community, school, student and media support during that endeavor.

This topic is a tough one, but I would challenge anyone here to dispute that on a physiological level males are stronger, faster, have more bone and muscle density.  This is a scientific fact.  As such, a competition that pits females with females based on true physiological definition of XX = female should be the baseline requirement. 

The winner of the race that started this thread.  The winning times would have finished dead last for the boys events in the 100 and 200.  We are supposed to also be supporting opportunities for women, and by having a male take up a spot as a female, that eliminates an opportunity.

So people born xx with male anatomy and musculature should compete with the women, and people that are xy with female genitalia should compete with the men?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

For those saying it is just high school sports, what are you insinuating? 

I can't speak for others but for me someone getting 2nd vs. 1st in a high school track meets pales in comparison to other forms of unfairness such as world hunger, racial profiling, people legally being fired for being gay, and being stabbed on a light rail for defending a woman from an islamaphobe. I have a finite amount of energy to dedicate to the world's many outrages. This one isn't close to being a priority for me.

Most don't choose, but some do.  Read the literature.

I have, extensively. I wrote my thesis on male identity development, a large section of which included intersections with sexual orientation. I have not come across anything that suggests one can simply choose their sexual orientation.* If you provide me with some sources, I would be happy to check them out and educate myself.

*Disclaimer: Someone who claims to be gay (whether by honest confusion, peer pressure, seeking attention, etc) but isn't actually attracted to the same sex is not actually gay, even if they engage in same sex sexual activity.

[GGGG]

Well said.

Definition of male = XY.  Definition of female = XX.


For those saying it is just high school sports, what are you insinuating?  High school sports is often the last bastion of competition athletes have.  Even those that are lucky enough to play in college sports know the importance high school sports played in their lives.  One of my kids played for a state championship and it was incredible the community, school, student and media support during that endeavor.

This topic is a tough one, but I would challenge anyone here to dispute that on a physiological level males are stronger, faster, have more bone and muscle density.  This is a scientific fact.  As such, a competition that pits females with females based on true physiological definition of XX = female should be the baseline requirement. 

The winner of the race that started this thread.  The winning times would have finished dead last for the boys events in the 100 and 200.  We are supposed to also be supporting opportunities for women, and by having a male take up a spot as a female, that eliminates an opportunity.

So no accommodations for those who change their gender?

[Pakuni]

No one chooses to be gay. Or straight. Or bi. Some people may claim to be gay (or straight) when they are not. But that doesn't make them gay (or straight).

Exactly.
Methinks some are confusing being homosexual or heterosexual with engaging in homosexual or heterosexual acts. One can do the latter without being the former.
Either that or Jay Bee believes Elton John is straight.

[Jay Bee]

No one chooses to be gay. Or straight. Or bi. Some people may claim to be gay (or straight) when they are not. But that doesn't make them gay (or straight).

So if some guy decides to become gay and does a bunch of guys, he's not gay?  Smh

[Lennys Tap]

Methinks some are confusing being homosexual or heterosexual with engaging in homosexual or heterosexual acts.

So it's possible that everyone who engages in heterosexual acts is gay and everyone who engages in homosexual acts is straight. The entire planet might be one big closet where everyone is hiding!

[Pakuni]

So it's possible that everyone who engages in heterosexual acts is gay and everyone who engages in homosexual acts is straight. The entire planet might be one big closet where everyone is hiding!

Being intentionally (I hope) this obtuse isn't a good look for you, Lenny.

[B. McBannerson]

So people born xx with male anatomy and musculature should compete with the women, and people that are xy with female genitalia should compete with the men?

Yes. The sexual organ isn't the reason they perform better.

These are competitions of physicality.  How high can you jump?  How fast can you run? How far can you throw?  How long can you jump?  How much weight can you lift?  How many goals can you score?  That is the essence of sports, physical competition.

Males are stronger, faster, have more endurance on average. This is science, not opinion.  Call it anatomy, kinisiology, biology, whatever you wish.  It is science.

You are disadvantaging females by allowing XY to compete.  Depriving females of opportunities.

[Pakuni]

Yes. The sexual organ isn't the reason they perform better.

These are competitions of physicality.  How high can you jump?  How fast can you run? How far can you throw?  How long can you jump?  How much weight can you lift?  How many goals can you score?  That is the essence of sports, physical competition.

Males are stronger, faster, have more endurance on average. This is science, not opinion.  Call it anatomy, kinisiology, biology, whatever you wish.  It is science.

You are disadvantaging females by allowing XY to compete.  Depriving females of opportunities.

East Africans are genetically equipped to be better long-distance runners than Western Europeans. It is science.
Your are disadvantaging Western Europeans by allowing East Africans to compete. Depriving them of opportunities.

(For the record, no one is being denied an opportunity to compete).

[B. McBannerson]

I can't speak for others but for me someone getting 2nd vs. 1st in a high school track meets pales in comparison to other forms of unfairness such as world hunger, racial profiling, people legally being fired for being gay, and being stabbed on a light rail for defending a woman from an islamaphobe. I have a finite amount of energy to dedicate to the world's many outrages. This one isn't close to being a priority for me.

We are in agreement, but that isn't the comparison anyone here is making I am sure you would agree.  If you wish to go to that degree we can say the same thing about the Super Bowl, or volunteering at your local food shelter, or everything else in the world.

I do not believe anyone here is saying high school sports, college sports, even Olympic Sports is the end all, be all, but it isn't worthless, either.  Young men and women put tremendous effort, sacrifice as individuals and teams to accomplish athletic goals.  Tilting the playing field and making it unfair based on physiology is fundamentally depriving people opportunity in the same way some of you will argue it is depriving transgender people opportunities.  Would you agree?  If only 8 spots are open for the 100 meter finals for the NCAA Track and Field and one is taken by a XY male transgender, than a female XX has lost an opportunity to compete at the highest level in her collegiate career.

I have, extensively. I wrote my thesis on male identity development, a large section of which included intersections with sexual orientation. I have not come across anything that suggests one can simply choose their sexual orientation.* If you provide me with some sources, I would be happy to check them out and educate myself.

*Disclaimer: Someone who claims to be gay (whether by honest confusion, peer pressure, seeking attention, etc) but isn't actually attracted to the same sex is not actually gay, even if they engage in same sex sexual activity.
[/quote]

My personal opinion is 98%+ (maybe higher) have no choice.  Whether that is straight, gay, bisexual.  A thought provoking article from a gay man on the topic.  Feel free to disagree.

https://www.thenation.com/article/whats-wrong-choosing-be-gay/

[B. McBannerson]

East Africans are genetically equipped to be better long-distance runners than Western Europeans. It is science.
Your are disadvantaging Western Europeans by allowing East Africans to compete. Depriving them of opportunities.

(For the record, no one is being denied an opportunity to compete).

You are sounding like Jimmy the Greek.   

It is also not a scientific fact as you claim.  https://link.springer.com/article/10.2165/00007256-200737040-00039

There is also self selection going on with track athletes from nations that choose to go into specific events from a younger age that has an influence.  Culturally in the USA, the sprinters is where it is at and we don't produce as many long distance runners.  Similar case for soccer. The USA has great athletes among 350 million people, why not great soccer players by comparison?  Because so many great athletes here do not track into soccer and choose other sports, but that doesn't mean if they were to choose differently at a younger age we could not be producing some of the best soccer players in the world.

[real chili 83]

I think you are right that a lot of people's concern is actually about sexual orientation. In reality, I think its a non-issue unless one of the roommates is going to take advantage of the other...which I wouldn't assume that of anyone and if it does happen they should be held accountable and removed.

But I think a lot of it also come from cultural norms. We just didn't grow up with people of different sexes interacting like that. I've been to a couple of conferences for work where they had gender neutral bathrooms as an option. I consider myself pretty #woke, but even I had some feelings of discomfort and even panic when I walked in and there were women in the bathroom. My first thought was "holy sh*t its a trap I need to get out." But if you stop and think about it, there really is no good reason to separate bathrooms. Hell, I get more privacy in gender neutral bathrooms because there are stalls and no urinals (at least in the ones I've seen). By the end of the conference, I was used to it. It didn't feel weird.

I do also want to acknowledge that there are those with religious beliefs who would say its just not appropriate for a woman and man to live together before marriage. If someone has that religious belief, I do think it is important that it is respected. So if our society does move towards genderless spaces, I think we need to have options for those who can't or won't buy in.

You must have been in Austin. For sure, it wasn't CS.

[Lighthouse 84]

So what happens when the transgender male to female athlete applies to college?  Does the college give a scholarship to allow her to play on the women's team?  Let's say ND (a school that sucks by the way) is tired of losing to UConn year after year in women's hoops.  Can they give scholarships out to transgenders to get a team that can finally beat UConn?  And if so, why wouldn't they, assuming there were talented male basketball players who identified as females.

I know that the topic's been raised before, though I didn't see it in this thread, but the possibility exists for someone to game the system in order to get admitted, or get free admission to a university, when they wouldn't have been able to by remaining their born sex. 

And I don't think all, most or even the a large number of transgenders are identifying as the opposite sex to solely gain an advantage.  But why wouldn't some?  With the number of people in the world who try to scam themselves through life, I think it's a logical conclusion.  But is the answer, it's too difficult to figure out who truly identifies as the opposite sex and who is doing it for free tuition, competitive advantage, etc., so we just let it go? 

[Lennys Tap]

Being intentionally (I hope) this obtuse isn't a good look for you, Lenny.

Seeing obtuseness where humor was obviously the intent isn't a good look for you, Pakuni.

[GGGG]

Yes. The sexual organ isn't the reason they perform better.

These are competitions of physicality.  How high can you jump?  How fast can you run? How far can you throw?  How long can you jump?  How much weight can you lift?  How many goals can you score?  That is the essence of sports, physical competition.

Males are stronger, faster, have more endurance on average. This is science, not opinion.  Call it anatomy, kinisiology, biology, whatever you wish.  It is science.

You are disadvantaging females by allowing XY to compete.  Depriving females of opportunities.

You do realize that transgendered individuals make up a very small percentage of the population right?  And that they aren't exactly undertaking these changes so they can compete in high school sports?

No one is being denied anything substantive. 

[Jockey]

Well said.

Definition of male = XY.  Definition of female = XX.

What does XXY equal? What about XXXY, XYY, or a combo of XX in some cells and XY in others?
 
Should people with these combinations be banned from all competitive sports because they weren't born "normal" like you?

[rocket surgeon]

I can't speak for others but for me someone getting 2nd vs. 1st in a high school track meets pales in comparison to other forms of unfairness such as world hunger, racial profiling, people legally being fired for being gay, and being stabbed on a light rail for defending a woman from an islamaphobe. I have a finite amount of energy to dedicate to the world's many outrages. This one isn't close to being a priority for me.

I have, extensively. I wrote my thesis on male identity development, a large section of which included intersections with sexual orientation. I have not come across anything that suggests one can simply choose their sexual orientation.* If you provide me with some sources, I would be happy to check them out and educate myself.

*Disclaimer: Someone who claims to be gay (whether by honest confusion, peer pressure, seeking attention, etc) but isn't actually attracted to the same sex is not actually gay, even if they engage in same sex sexual activity.

people who are straight their whole lives, then go into prison...

   http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ben-carson-prison-gay-choice

tamu, i don't know how you define gay, but in my book, if one engages in "other" acitivity, that in my book is gay or homosexual or lesbianism or what have you.  there are no biological markers denoting gay that i'm aware of.  i have not seen a study showing different chromosomes(xx/xy) denoting gay.  there may be different reactions within the dna of the chromosomes denoting gayness or straightness, but i haven't seen nor looked that deep

[GGGG]

people who are straight their whole lives, then go into prison...

   http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ben-carson-prison-gay-choice

Oh lord....

[rocket surgeon]

Oh lord....

most people here refer to me as "rocket" but thank you!

[reinko]

So what happens when the transgender male to female athlete applies to college?  Does the college give a scholarship to allow her to play on the women's team?  Let's say ND (a school that sucks by the way) is tired of losing to UConn year after year in women's hoops.  Can they give scholarships out to transgenders to get a team that can finally beat UConn?  And if so, why wouldn't they, assuming there were talented male basketball players who identified as females.

I know that the topic's been raised before, though I didn't see it in this thread, but the possibility exists for someone to game the system in order to get admitted, or get free admission to a university, when they wouldn't have been able to by remaining their born sex. 

And I don't think all, most or even the a large number of transgenders are identifying as the opposite sex to solely gain an advantage.  But why wouldn't some?  With the number of people in the world who try to scam themselves through life, I think it's a logical conclusion.  But is the answer, it's too difficult to figure out who truly identifies as the opposite sex and who is doing it for free tuition, competitive advantage, etc., so we just let it go?

Word to the wise, don't call them transgenders, they transgendered people, or people who are transgendered.

[B. McBannerson]

You do realize that transgendered individuals make up a very small percentage of the population right?  And that they aren't exactly undertaking these changes so they can compete in high school sports?

No one is being denied anything substantive.

Yes, but you also realize that some of these sporting opportunities come perhaps once in a lifetime.  I played in a state Final Four my junior year of high school.  Senior year did not even make the playoffs.  One of my children played in a state championship final. The other three years, didn't come close. 

It is about opportunities lost, too. 

If you are to ask the participants who lost those opportunities, will they all say it isn't substantive?  Is that not unique to the situation and the person?

[B. McBannerson]

What does XXY equal? What about XXXY, XYY, or a combo of XX in some cells and XY in others?
 
Should people with these combinations be banned from all competitive sports because they weren't born "normal" like you?

No, but then title it correctly.  Girls track and field should be for girls.  Define what a girl is to not give anyone an unfair advantage. 

This is why Mr Pakuni's arguments seem offbase to me.  Yes, there are superior specimens in all sports, but they meet the physiological definition to participate in that sport.  Lebron James is still a male and playing in the NBA. He would not be allowed to play in the WNBA.  He doesn't meet the criteria. 

If you are physiologically a male, then participate in male sports where physiology matters.  We are not talking about chess, art, design, music, or other competitons where brawn, mass, muscle matters and gives a benefit.

Fundamental fairness. 

Or, if we wish to be PC about it.  Give two first place championship awards out.  The legitimate female finished in second place to a non female.  She won the true female championship in my opinion.

[reinko]

Yes, but you also realize that some of these sporting opportunities come perhaps once in a lifetime.  I played in a state Final Four my junior year of high school.  Senior year did not even make the playoffs.  One of my children played in a state championship final. The other three years, didn't come close. 

It is about opportunities lost, too. 

If you are to ask the participants who lost those opportunities, will they all say it isn't substantive?  Is that not unique to the situation and the person?

[B. McBannerson]

High school athletics doesn't have to define you sir.  That doesn't mean it cannot be special especially for certain communities and situations.  There is plenty of life to live after, but amazing memories made. 

Would the kids that won the Indiana high school championship be merely Al Bundy types in your world?  Texas football title?  Miracle hockey championship in Connecticut? 

No need to act like you are on this.  Life moves forward, but it doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile either, and in some cases an amazing accomplishment by young men and women.