Protests

[Pakuni]

This is disconcerting.

Fantasies of a violent tipping point feature prominently in the Boogaloo scene, which—while relatively new and not an ideological monolith—generally trends right-wing or fringe libertarian, with many of its memes and aesthetic markers borrowed from more explicitly racist alt-right and 4chan culture. The movement is broadly anti-government, and talks often of sparking a civil war.

In the midst of that are current and former service members talking about waging war on U.S. soil. Participation by military members in an anti-government movement might seem counterintuitive on its face, but the Boogaloo movement is only the latest in a long series of fringe paramilitary scenes that court American troops.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-disturbing-appeal-of-boogaloo-violence-to-military-men?ref=home

[shoothoops]

https://www.wtvr.com/news/local-news/kkk-president-arrested-for-hitting-protester-with-his-truck

"Good people on both sides."

[wadesworld]

Yes, we have to be in far left or far right enclaves to participate here.  We cannot have someone that sees both sides for the corrupt and good nature they have.  Let’s entrench more in the extremes.  That has worked so well.

You are the furthest right poster on this board. And that’s saying something.

[WarriorDad]

i

Say what? Ferguson is a 20k outer suburb in North St. Louis County. Ferguson is St. Louis and St. Louis is Ferguson. Much of that situation was peaceful protestors similar to what we are seeing across the country now. There was a mix of out of state and local people involved with the criminal activity component.

Similar to many places across the country, black people are stopped by police at significantly higher rates than white despite those rates not matching up with population statistics. Ever been to traffic court in pick your burb USA? It's rigged against people of color. Stopped while black, fines, etc...

According to the Dept of Justice, 88% of police is white in similar size locales across the country. It was 93% in Ferguson, even higher. If you are black, you learn at a young age about police. 75% of all police Nationally is white.

3 out of 53 police officers were black in Ferguson during the death of Mike Brown.  St. Louis County Police is the largest police force in the state of Missouri and it has full authority (if and when it wants) over Ferguson and the other 87 municipalities in Stl Counties. (none of these include St. Louis City Police which is separate) There are 58 police forces in those counties, many of which are focused on creating revenue (often from minorities) to stay afloat as opposed to protecting and serving the public.

You may have heard about the recent law suit against St. Louis County Police which made the news around the country. A police lieutenant was passed over promotion 23 times because he is gay. He was literally told to tone down being gay. A jury awarded him $20 million. (Hello taxpayer money) Later a settlement was reached for $10.25 million. The St. Louis County Police Chief "Retired" at the same time as the announcement.


https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/st-louis-county-reaches-10-25-million-settlement-with-wildhaber-in-discrimination-suit/article_83594da4-2e90-5fed-8580-ccdc2b95a2a8.html

About that Ferguson? They elected their first ever black mayor, Ella Jones (term limits for the previous mayor) by a 138 vote margin in a close race. Now 4 of 6 Ferguson council people are black compared to a previous minority. These things started with protests and protesting, and the Black Lives Matter movement. There was also a Department of Justice investigation. Before, Ferguson was a typical anywhere USA white flight burb where despite declining white population, increasing black population, the white people still had the police and government majorities and power.


https://www.npr.org/2020/06/03/868512501/ella-jones-elected-first-black-mayor-of-ferguson-mo

Here is the list of those arrested in Ferguson from CNN.  Very few from Ferguson, most from the St Lous area.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/images/08/22/arrest.data.from.8-10.to.8-22.pdf


NPR reported that of 51 arrests on days two and three, only one was from Ferguson.

No misinformation. 

[ZiggysFryBoy]

https://www.wtvr.com/news/local-news/kkk-president-arrested-for-hitting-protester-with-his-truck

"Good people on both sides."

I dont know any republicans that support the KKK, but it that is your myopic world view, i suggest you get out more. 

And i know, OMB.   

[WarriorDad]

Willful ignorance is no excuse.

Everything you've written here is the definition of goalpost shifting.
You started this with the claim that you couldn't remember any police-related rioting in cities with Republican mayors. I gave you three instances in just the last eight years (no including last week, by the way). Rather than admit you were mistaken or misinformed, you've excused your ignorance with ramblings about demographics and voter turnout, which seem to have no point but to blame black residents for their mistreatment. I guess your argument now is that black citizens should expect to be treated unfairly by white politicians. Quite the claim.

I did not mention mayor at all, and you say I shift goalposts. What are you doing?  Cities are not just controlled by mayors, by the way.  Strong mayor vs weak mayor political structures, powerful city councils and the like.  Some are also split with a mayor from one party and a city council that is split or majority another party.

I’m willfully ignorant for not knowing about protests that happened 2000 miles away that were so big they didn’t make a list of protests in the USA?  It they were meaningful, wouldn’t they be something commonly known?  Ferguson is known.  Anaheim?  Apparently not.  Maybe you are more connected on this than I am, but I knew nothing about them and it seems much of the Macro internet didn’t either.

But to facilitate the conversation, I will restate the information.  I admit that Ferguson had a Republican mayor in a city that was over 80% Democratic with only 12% voter turnout had a riot in 2014 in which most of the arrests for the destruction caused were from people in St Louis and even outside of the state.  Restated.

I have no idea about Anaheim, what kind of gov’t they have or what level of rioting seems (very small since it doesn’t measure as a thing for any major riots listed that I can find), but if a minor riot happened there then I am happy to bend to your will.

Back to my original statement. It seems to me, and maybe it is wrong, most of these major riots are happening because of systemic racism or police brutality and we (voters that live here) can change this in the cities controlled by Democratic machinery.  This makes obvious sense to me because urban centers in this country are often complicated.  In the end, we control the levers of power in these cities.  Why can we not be introspective on this and ask why we continue to vote in people and the power structure that allow it to happen? 

You seem on the defensive rather than embracing the moment on the change we can make.  The GOP doesn’t control these cities where most of this is happening? Right?  We do.  Instead of defending and living in the past, why not embrace the change that is needed?

[shoothoops]

Here is the list of those arrested in Ferguson from CNN.  Very few from Ferguson, most from the St Lous area.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/images/08/22/arrest.data.from.8-10.to.8-22.pdf


NPR reported that of 51 arrests on days two and three, only one was from Ferguson.

No misinformation.

Yes lots and lots of misinformation in your post. So now you are searching for the smallest thing to try to be correct about. But, what you don't understand is that Ferguson and St. Louis are considered interchangeable places. No one in the St. Louis Metro Area considers them different. Ferguson, again, is a 20k outer rung suburb in North St. Louis County. If you wanted to mail a package to Ferguson, Mo, you could literally post it "St. Louis, MO" (spoiler alert: Many people do)  and it would arrive in Ferguson. You have little understanding about the geography of Metro St. Louis.

 I have previously posted here multiple times that examples such as Ferguson 2014  have shown a mix of people who are local, which means the entire 3 million metro area of St. Louis, which includes, but is not limited to Ferguson, and, a variety of other states near and far around the country. Thanks for illustrating my point on that.

Now go over all of the other misinformation in your post or move along which is fine and I'm sure encouraged by some others.

[Pakuni]

Back to my original statement. It seems to me, and maybe it is wrong, most of these major riots are happening because of systemic racism or police brutality and we (voters that live here) can change this in the cities controlled by Democratic machinery.  This makes obvious sense to me because urban centers in this country are often complicated.  In the end, we control the levers of power in these cities.  Why can we not be introspective on this and ask why we continue to vote in people and the power structure that allow it to happen? 

Blah, blah, blame Democrats, blah blah.
This is not a partisan issue, no matter how much you wish it to be so. You're making it a partisan issue because it is the only thing you know how to do. Come back if/when you have anything substantive to add.

[WarriorDad]

You are the furthest right poster on this board. And that’s saying something.

You cannot be serious.  I’m sorry you continue to think I am someone I am not, but that is your mistake.  You continue to say liberal = Democrat.  That is false.  Some liberals are Democrats and some Democrats are liberal, and some conservatives are Republican and some Republicans are conservative.  That doesn’t mean they all are.  There are moderate Democrats and Republicans.  Is Mitt Romney the same as Ted Cruz?  But both are Republican so they have to be.      Same for the Democratic side. Was John F Kennedy rave the same level of liberal as Edward?  But both were Democratic politicians so they must be?

There is a specific reason I mentioned JK Rowling and that story she wrote.  Did you know she wrote that story under a pseudonym? Do you know why I ask?

[Pakuni]

I dont know any republicans that support the KKK, but it that is your myopic world view, i suggest you get out more. 

And i know, OMB.   

He didn't say anything about Republicans.

[WarriorDad]

Yes lots and lots of misinformation in your post. So now you are searching for the smallest thing to try to be correct about. But, what you don't understand is that Ferguson and St. Louis are considered interchangeable places. No one in the St. Louis Metro Area considers them different. Ferguson, again, is a 20k outer rung suburb in North St. Louis County. If you wanted to mail a package to Ferguson, Mo, you could literally post it "St. Louis, MO" (spoiler alert: Many people do)  and it would arrive in Ferguson. You have little understanding about the geography of Metro St. Louis.

 I have previously posted here multiple times that examples such as Ferguson 2014  have shown a mix of people who are local, which means the entire 3 million metro area of St. Louis, which includes, but is not limited to Ferguson, and, a variety of other states near and far around the country. Thanks for illustrating my point on that.

Now go over all of the other misinformation in your post or move along which is fine and I'm sure encouraged by some others.

I made the statement that most of the rioting came from people outside Ferguson.  The people that lived in Ferguson were not participating in the process, and were allowing the same power structure to continue when they could have instituted change.  Now they finally have.  It is time for other cities to do the same.  If you do not like policing in Chicago, New York, Los Angeles then change who you vote for. Demand that they listen to you, the voter.  Instead we have voted in every election for years, sometimes a century, in these cities and then we act surprised when the actions do not change.  That is on us.  Be the agent of change.  Vote.  And don’t be surprised if the same results happen when you vote for the same people each election.  Definition of insanity.

[Warrior2008]

Good brief description of what it actually means to defund the police:

https://www.newsweek.com/john-oliver-defund-police-show-1509407?amp=1&utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

John Oliver's entire show. Worth your time:

https://twitter.com/LastWeekTonight/status/1269993152171122689?s=19

It needs to be clearly articulated that "defunding the police" means more of a reorganization of police departments and greater access and budget for ancillary social services while still maintaining some police.  People point to Camden as the successful model and while they did disband their police department, they reorganized police at a county level allowing for more officers to serve in a community based model.  They also adopted de-escalation methods and dropped the warrior mantra that is so toxic in police departments now.  I think if its articulated to the public that this is what "de-fund the police" means, its a winning issue. 

But the argument to just disband police, like a few Minneapolis City Council members described, and replace it with some sort of community watch group is on its face a really dumb idea and is not at all what Camden did.  Sadly you can increase access to and budgets for a whole range of social services, but you will still have situations(domestic violence, armed robbery, active shooter, etc) where cops are required.  Its a fantasy to think otherwise.

[WarriorDad]

https://www.wtvr.com/news/local-news/kkk-president-arrested-for-hitting-protester-with-his-truck

"Good people on both sides."

You do know that disgusting group has had people from both sides (parties) in it since it began, right?  Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with this.  No one in the mainstream supports these people. I hate that anyway even gives them the publicity of their actions.  It is like naming a school shooter and the notoriety they seek.   

[shoothoops]

I made the statement that most of the rioting came from people outside Ferguson.  The people that lived in Ferguson were not participating in the process, and were allowing the same power structure to continue when they could have instituted change.  Now they finally have.  It is time for other cities to do the same.  If you do not like policing in Chicago, New York, Los Angeles then change who you vote for. Demand that they listen to you, the voter.  Instead we have voted in every election for years, sometimes a century, in these cities and then we act surprised when the actions do not change.  That is on us.  Be the agent of change.  Vote.  And don’t be surprised if the same results happen when you vote for the same people each election.  Definition of insanity.

Gaslighting, which by definition, is to distract, muddy the waters, perhaps even say untruthful, and or intentionally misleading statements repeatedly, to divert attention.

Blaming the victim.....In the immortal words of in game analyst Dodgeball analyst Pepper Brooks, "...Bold strategy Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for 'em."

[GooooMarquette]

It needs to be clearly articulated that "defunding the police" means more of a reorganization of police departments and greater access and budget for ancillary social services while still maintaining some police.  People point to Camden as the successful model and while they did disband their police department, they reorganized police at a county level allowing for more officers to serve in a community based model.  They also adopted de-escalation methods and dropped the warrior mantra that is so toxic in police departments now.  I think if its articulated to the public that this is what "de-fund the police" means, its a winning issue. 

But the argument to just disband police, like a few Minneapolis City Council members described, and replace it with some sort of community watch group is on its face a really dumb idea and is not at all what Camden did.  Sadly you can increase access to and budgets for a whole range of social services, but you will still have situations(domestic violence, armed robbery, active shooter, etc) where cops are required.  Its a fantasy to think otherwise.

Agreed. The language of this is significant, and the sooner the proponents figure out a better tagline than "defund the police," (and truly move to a Camden-like model instead of a "community watch group" model) the more likely they will get support from a vast majority of Americans.

[WarriorDad]

“All Lives Matter, not just those of one part of the population.” –ChicosBailBonds

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=48369.msg754224#msg754224

Why are you stating this?


Is he Richard Sherman?  “I stand by what I said, all lives matter”.  He has doubled down on that phrase.

Hillary Clinton used the same phrase. 

My wife was a supporter of Pete Buttigeg who said it and took heat for it.  That may have been one of the final straws for her.  He didn’t realize that it was a counter slogan, nor did she and I’m not sure she agrees that it is anyway.  She loves everyone.  Unfortunately tribalism rules here.

[Elonsmusk]

It needs to be clearly articulated that "defunding the police" means more of a reorganization of police departments and greater access and budget for ancillary social services while still maintaining some police.  People point to Camden as the successful model and while they did disband their police department, they reorganized police at a county level allowing for more officers to serve in a community based model.  They also adopted de-escalation methods and dropped the warrior mantra that is so toxic in police departments now.  I think if its articulated to the public that this is what "de-fund the police" means, its a winning issue. 

But the argument to just disband police, like a few Minneapolis City Council members described, and replace it with some sort of community watch group is on its face a really dumb idea and is not at all what Camden did.  Sadly you can increase access to and budgets for a whole range of social services, but you will still have situations(domestic violence, armed robbery, active shooter, etc) where cops are required.  Its a fantasy to think otherwise.

I hope Minneapolis follows through and defunds the police as a case study for the rest of metro America.  My gut tells me it will be a train wreck.  You may reduce officer involved deaths at hands of police, yet crime and homicide levels (particularly in inner-cities will exponentially increase.)

Eventually some of these radical ideas need to be implemented for that radical liberal left to see the consequence.  Perhaps they will perceive it as a win if officer involved deaths decrease - even if crime spikes.  There sure AF doesn't appear to be outrage over the number of homicides taking place in our inner-cities, and those Black lives dying at the hands of other Blacks.  So, we all should just come to peace with black lives matter only when it involves the police or killing perpetrated by another race.

[tower912]

I don't see any signs, posters or murals of Captain Dorn in the protest crowd. I guess a murdered retired black police officer is not a symbol of systemic racism; after all how could a black man become a police Captain in St. Louis of all places with all that systemic racism. In fact his murderer is still at large and the national press does not seem to care about that black life. Why has Black Lives Matter not cried out for justice in his case? Does Black Lives Matter even know who he is? If Black Lives do Matter why not his as well?

As highlighted in red: I could say the same of many of the posters in this thread. Am I right, you just said her arguments are not grounded in reality? Whose reality, yours or hers? Are her arguments any less valid than yours?

First degree murder charges filed.    But nice red herring.   

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I hope Minneapolis follows through and defunds the police as a case study for the rest of metro America.  My gut tells me it will be a train wreck.  You may reduce officer involved deaths at hands of police, yet crime and homicide levels (particularly in inner-cities will exponentially increase.)

Eventually some of these radical ideas need to be implemented for that radical liberal left to see the consequence.  Perhaps they will perceive it as a win if officer involved deaths decrease - even if crime spikes.  There sure AF doesn't appear to be outrage over the number of homicides taking place in our inner-cities, and those Black lives dying at the hands of other Blacks.  So, we all should just come to peace with black lives matter only when it involves the police or killing perpetrated by another race.

The bolded really isn't an accurate statement.  And it's not really relevant to the subject at hand.

[Pakuni]

I see the "What about black-on-black crime" guy has arrived.


"You may reduce officer involved deaths at hands of police, yet crime and homicide levels (particularly in inner-cities will exponentially increase.)"

Yes, cops are doing a bang-up job of reducing and solving homicide in America's inner-cities.
And, of course, another person who doesn't understand what "defund the police" means ... though, to be fair, its proponents have done a terrible job of explaining and branding it.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I see the "What about black-on-black crime" guy has arrived.

Yeah it took awhile.  I mean "trash the victim" guy only showed up this past weekend.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I’m sorry you continue to think I am someone I am not, but that is your mistake.

“You keep calling me Chicos and I am not going to answer your question” –Hoopaloop

[tower912]

I love cops.    I truly do.    And they have it the worst.     The right hates them because they have a strong union.    The left hates them because sometimes their lesser, dumber, more racist members do really stupid sh!t that makes the 99 % look bad.    And since all they have is each other, they close ranks when they should be openly ostracizing the bad ones.     All while the R's would really prefer they work for minimum wage and not get a pension.   

   They have trouble recruiting now, just like the teachers.    Once upon a time, the best and the finest wanted to be one of these two long honored professions.     Then, somehow, every societal woe became their fault.     

   I love cops.   I feel bad for the whipsaw they get from so many different sides.   They need to stop killing unarmed black people.   
   I love teachers.    I wish they were given the resources and support they need to perform their jobs well.   

[Jockey]

I dont know any republicans that support the KKK, but it that is your myopic world view, i suggest you get out more. 

And i know, OMB.   

Ummm, Trump?

[jesmu84]

“You keep calling me Chicos and I am not going to answer your question” –Hoopaloop

There's a tweet/quote for every situation.

*chef's kiss gif*