Poll: Derrick Wilson minutes

[Dawson Rental]

DING DING DING

logical fallacy

Just to be clear, you are agreeing with MUSF that the argument others make that he quotes in his post where you have bolded is, as MUSF says, invalid because it's a logical fallacy.

[Lennys Tap]

Derrick was our starting PG last year.  And the stats I provided compared him to the other starters.  Getting an assist or rebound aren't exactly hallmarks of having high major D-1 ability.  Truly..any player that is on a D1 scholarship as a PG and gets 32 minutes per game is going to get assists and rebounds and a few steals.  Derrick barely does any of those things better than the average PG in the Big East.  But he is WAY below average in the more critical areas - scoring, shooting, FT shooting, 3 point shooting.

He is a backup at best at this level.  Period.  Doesn't mean he doesn't have high major ability...but just that his ability is that as a backup, a stop gap, at best...and when you force him to be a 32 minute a game player as Buzz did last year...that causes major problems on a team..especially when the deficiency is at the most critical position on a basketball team.  It's a guards game, and a PG's world in college hoops...you simply cannot have a guy that challenged offensively at that position 32 minutes a game and expect to have a good team.

Vander Blue and Trent Lockett are not the reasons why this team went from an Elite 8 team to missing the NIT.  Would Vander have been near the slasher if he had to deal with Derrick's defender collapsing the paint and being able to help off of Derrick 6'?  Did MU have any semblance of a fast break/transition game this past season?  Why didn't it have a fast break/transition game?  How do you explain playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end doesn't hurt a basketball team and cause it to not be very good??

It all trickles down to effect the other guys on the team...when one guy is ZERO threat to make a perimeter shot, won't shoot one, and if he does, shoots 7% from the 3point line.

I think I'm going to regret this, but:

1. I don't think that anyone on this board doesn't agree that Derrick was awful as a shooter and scorer last year. He'll never be good at those two things. Your boy Dawson was a better shooter and scorer and so probably were scores of guys playing pick up games in the rec center.
2. That said, saying that scoring, shooting, FT shooting and 3 pt shooting are "more critical" to point guard play than taking care of the basketball, assists, A/TO ratio and defense is basketball brain dead. So is playing an inexperienced, weak with the ball, turnover prone, poor defensive player at the point over an experienced, strong with the ball, solid assist/turnover, really good defensive guy when he is also below average offensively.

Certainly we took a major step back last season and point guard play was responsible for some of that. Derrick was definitely a drop off from Junior. Not anywhere near the drop off that the walk on (Jake) was to the NBA guy (Vander) at the 2, though. Todd was better in spurts than Trent at the 3 but nowhere near as consistent. And the senior leader expected to take a leap forward instead regressed. Put that all in a blender and the results are predictable, but the idea that an inexperienced point guard with a weak handle and at best average offensive skills who was totally overmatched on defense was some sort of a panacea is ridiculous.

[NersEllenson]

I think I'm going to regret this, but:

1. I don't think that anyone on this board doesn't agree that Derrick was awful as a shooter and scorer last year. He'll never be good at those two things. Your boy Dawson was a better shooter and scorer and so probably were scores of guys playing pick up games in the rec center.
2. That said, saying that scoring, shooting, FT shooting and 3 pt shooting are "more critical" to point guard play than taking care of the basketball, assists, A/TO ratio and defense is basketball brain dead. So is playing an inexperienced, weak with the ball, turnover prone, poor defensive player at the point over an experienced, strong with the ball, solid assist/turnover, really good defensive guy when he is also below average offensively.

Certainly we took a major step back last season and point guard play was responsible for some of that. Derrick was definitely a drop off from Junior. Not anywhere near the drop off that the walk on (Jake) was to the NBA guy (Vander) at the 2, though. Todd was better in spurts than Trent at the 3 but nowhere near as consistent. And the senior leader expected to take a leap forward instead regressed. Put that all in a blender and the results are predictable, but the idea that an inexperienced point guard with a weak handle and at best average offensive skills who was totally overmatched on defense was some sort of a panacea is ridiculous.

No worries Lenny.  17-15, 9-9.  It wouldn't have been worse playing the freshman with the weaknesses you cite above...the benefit alone he would have brought having to be guarded all over the floor would have helped the "senior leader" take a step forward...and the other senior...our best post player in several decades take a big step up, instead of just a lateral season.

I disagree..the ability to shoot 1, 2 and 3pt shots at the D-1 level is far more critical than being able to assist/protect the ball.  If Dawson got 30+ minutes a game, a guarn-god-dang tee you he would have averaged at least as many assists as Derrick did last year as he sees the floor much better and has a better feel for the game.  Yes, Dawson would have turned it over probably 1-2 times per game more...yet that would be offset by his ability to make Free Throws at an 81% clip compared to the 43% of Derrick...and his 3pt shooting percentage being 4 times better than Derrick's would have made up for any such defensive deficiency.  Last season was also Buzz's worst defensive team...and numerous PG's lit us up...if Derrick were truly an elite defender...doesn't happen.

[g0lden3agle]

No worries Lenny.  17-15, 9-9.  It wouldn't have been worse playing the freshman with the weaknesses you cite above...the benefit alone he would have brought having to be guarded all over the floor would have helped the "senior leader" take a step forward...and the other senior...our best post player in several decades take a big step up, instead of just a lateral season.

I disagree..the ability to shoot 1, 2 and 3pt shots at the D-1 level is far more critical than being able to assist/protect the ball.  If Dawson got 30+ minutes a game, a guarn-god-dang tee you he would have averaged at least as many assists as Derrick did last year as he sees the floor much better and has a better feel for the game.  Yes, Dawson would have turned it over probably 1-2 times per game more...yet that would be offset by his ability to make Free Throws at an 81% clip compared to the 43% of Derrick...and his 3pt shooting percentage being 4 times better than Derrick's would have made up for any such defensive deficiency.  Last season was also Buzz's worst defensive team...and numerous PG's lit us up...if Derrick were truly an elite defender...doesn't happen.

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.

[GGGG]

No worries Lenny.  17-15, 9-9. 

It really is hard to take you seriously when you base the entire reason for last year's failures on one person.  I mean earlier in the thread you said "Vander Blue and Trent Lockett are not the reasons why this team went from an Elite 8 team to missing the NIT."

Really?  Replacing the team's leading scorer, a top 100 RSCI guy who played in the NBA this past year, with a former walk on who transferred from South Dakota and who has no NBA aspirations whatsoever, is not a reason for the problems of last year?

You have become so singularly focused on being so vehemently "anti-Derrick" that you aren't really thinking clearly and comprehensively about what exactly the problems were last year.

[NersEllenson]

It really is hard to take you seriously when you base the entire reason for last year's failures on one person.  I mean earlier in the thread you said "Vander Blue and Trent Lockett are not the reasons why this team went from an Elite 8 team to missing the NIT."

Really?  Replacing the team's leading scorer, a top 100 RSCI guy who played in the NBA this past year, with a former walk on who transferred from South Dakota and who has no NBA aspirations whatsoever, is not a reason for the problems of last year?

You have become so singularly focused on being so vehemently "anti-Derrick" that you aren't really thinking clearly and comprehensively about what exactly the problems were last year.

What were the problems last year in your expert view?  I know you discount Todd Mayo being every bit the player Vander Blue was..even when provided every statistical category that shows proves the point to be true.  Buzz...if he weren't intent on making a point to the admin and their issues on recruiting character risks...should have played Mayo 33 minutes like Vander got...Jake/JJJ could have been in back up role like Mayo was when Vander was here.

Lockett was widely criticized until the last month of the season..was a role player/glue guy.  Juan Anderson probably would have accomplished similar results in played as consistently as Lockett was...which is saying something.

How you and the few others in the minority viewpoint cannot conclude the obvious - that having a PG as severely limited as Derrick - wasn't the primary and significant cause of last year's fall off..well...

you aren't really thinking clearly and comprehensively about what exactly the problem was last year.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

that having a PG as severely limited as Derrick - wasn't the primary and significant cause of last year's fall off..well...

you aren't really thinking clearly and comprehensively about what exactly the problem was last year.

Have we ever gone through the exercise of comparing Derrick to Junior when they were both on the same team?

If Derrick was such a huge problem, wouldn't he have been a huge problem on the elite eight team as well?

[GGGG]

What were the problems last year in your expert view?

1. Blue leaving early
2. Poor point guard play (which I never argued wasn't a problem)
3. Lack of next step development from returning players (Juan, Steve, Jamil)
4. Lack of consistency from freshmen

[Lennys Tap]

Have we ever gone through the exercise of comparing Derrick to Junior when they were both on the same team?

If Derrick was such a huge problem, wouldn't he have been a huge problem on the elite eight team as well?

Exactly. And didn't Derrick replace the suspended Cadougan at the Kohl Center as a FRESHMAN? And didn't he stop their All American point guard Jordan Taylor cold? And didn't we beat top 10 UW in that game? Much more impressive than one good run versus an average Georgetown team last year.

Jamil Wilson was lousy last year. We could have been better with somebody better than him playing his position. That doesn't mean that someone was an even lousier Steve Taylor Jr. Same for Derrick/JD.

[Lennys Tap]

1. Blue leaving early
2. Poor point guard play (which I never argued wasn't a problem)
3. Lack of next step development from returning players (Juan, Steve, Jamil)
4. Lack of consistency from freshmen

Pay the man, Shirley. And #2 was an even bigger problem when Derrick was on the bench.

[Sunbelt15]

As MUSF pointed, D Wilson was not in the top 10 in minutes played. So it was more than just him getting the ball a lot.

I would not call Derrick Wilson great at an one specific thing other than ball control and rebounding (for a PG). However, I would only call him terrible at shooting.

Don't be politically correct. The kid was a bum last year. Hopefully his game improves in all aspects this year.

[NersEllenson]

Have we ever gone through the exercise of comparing Derrick to Junior when they were both on the same team?

If Derrick was such a huge problem, wouldn't he have been a huge problem on the elite eight team as well?

Seriously?  Derrick is fine as a 10 minute per game player as he was on the Elite 8 team...nobody disagrees that Derrick can be a serviceable back up PG at this level..

Pay the man, Shirley. And #2 was an even bigger problem when Derrick was on the bench.

LOL - Because the production we got was so good from him while he was on the floor.  Derrick's last 6 games of last season:

33.3 minutes per game
2.1 ppg
4-19 shooting from Field
5-16 from FT Line
2.0 Turnovers per game

But he did average 4.3 assists.

Pretty damn hard to win with those numbers at your PG position, and for the rest of the team to be successful.

You guys really need to give it up...it was atrocious play...and no..it wouldn't have been worse with Dawson running the Point.  A guy who can at least make FTs and shoot 4 times better from 3pt line adds far more value than a "ball protector" who doesn't even have to worry about being guarded closely on the perimeter!!

[NersEllenson]

Don't be politically correct. The kid was a bum last year. Hopefully his game improves in all aspects this year.

This whole he didn't play Top 10 in minutes point is ridiculous..no..he didn't play Top 10 minutes of ALL players in the conference...but he played more minutes than any other player on the MU roster.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Seriously?  Derrick is fine as a 10 minute per game player as he was on the Elite 8 team...nobody disagrees that Derrick can be a serviceable back up PG at this level..

Fine, but if Derrick was THE problem with last year's team (as you have repeatedly stated), wouldn't it have been blatantly obvious that he was REALLY bad on the elite 8 team?

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree that MU didn't have very good PG play last season. However, I think you have vastly overstated it, and refuse to take other factors into account.

[NersEllenson]

Fine, but if Derrick was THE problem with last year's team (as you have repeatedly stated), wouldn't it have been blatantly obvious that he was REALLY bad on the elite 8 team?

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree that MU didn't have very good PG play last season. However, I think you have vastly overstated it, and refuse to take other factors into account.

A guy playing 8-10 minutes per game as a stop gap measure and backup doesn't have to be any kind of game changer/playmaker...just a guy who doesn't totally screw up/blow it for the team in his 8-10 minutes, which Derrick doesn't do.  That doesn't make him a GOOD option for 32 minutes a game as the primary offensive conduit.

Sorry, I just don't think I am vastly overstating it...his offensive limitations were crippling to the team...and of historically bad proportions.  I mean this is high major, D-1 basketball - a PG who makes exactly 1 3pt shot in 966 minutes of play?  I suspect you couldn't find another guard in the last 5 years who's played that many minutes and made just 1 3pt shot.  The 3pt shot is becoming a huge part of the game as you know..

[GGGG]

Sorry, I just don't think I am vastly overstating it...his offensive limitations were crippling to the team...and of historically bad proportions. 

Guns how on earth can you say he's "vastly overstating it?"   

[Wojo'sMojo]

Fine, but if Derrick was THE problem with last year's team (as you have repeatedly stated), wouldn't it have been blatantly obvious that he was REALLY bad on the elite 8 team?

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree that MU didn't have very good PG play last season. However, I think you have vastly overstated it, and refuse to take other factors into account.

Was he good on the elite eight team? Here's a little recap for you...13.1mpg, 1.1 ppg, 1.6 assts, 0.9 Rebs, 0.7 spg, and 0.5 to's per game. Also shot 27% from the field and 45% from the line. That to me, tells me he was pretty bad on that team as well. It was just more magnified last year, because he played more than twice as many minutes.

[MUSF]

This whole he didn't play Top 10 in minutes point is ridiculous..no..he didn't play Top 10 minutes of ALL players in the conference...but he played more minutes than any other player on the MU roster.

It's valid when people counter the fact that Derrick was top ten in 8 statistical categories with the argument that anyone playing his amount of minutes would have accomplished the same thing.

[MUSF]

1. Blue leaving early
2. Poor point guard play (which I never argued wasn't a problem)
3. Lack of next step development from returning players (Juan, Steve, Jamil)
4. Lack of consistency from freshmen

This.

It's odd to me that Ners is getting so worked up because essentially people aren't placing all of the blame on Derrick and Buzz's decision to play him so much. It sure would be nice to say that Derrick was the reason for all of our problems because the solution next year would be simple.

[NersEllenson]

Guns how on earth can you say he's "vastly overstating it?"   

Are you that dense?  Guns feels I vastly overstate how bad Derrick was...and I provide an example that his 1 made 3 pt shot in 966 minutes of play as a D-1 PG, is likely unmatched in the last 5 years (being generous there, but probably historically too) of college basketball.  So therefore, how then, am I vastly overstating things?  I suspect there was no PG last year that shot 7% from the 3pt line, AND less than 50% from the FT line.

I know this past season was brutal for you Sultan and have a ton of egg to wipe off your face as a result, but at what point do you not just stop putting more egg on your face?  

[NersEllenson]

This.

It's odd to me that Ners is getting so worked up because essentially people aren't placing all of the blame on Derrick and Buzz's decision to play him so much. It sure would be nice to say that Derrick was the reason for all of our problems because the solution next year would be simple.

Watch how simple the solution is next season...and we are coming off an off season where we lost 20 years of experience, and our top two leading scorers, and best big man in 20+ years at MU..and we'll be a better team...even with a rookie head coach...

[GGGG]

I know this past season was brutal for you Sultan and have a ton of egg to wipe off your face as a result, but at what point do you not just stop putting more egg on your face?  

I don't have any egg to wipe off my face.

The point guard position was a problem.  Derrick was the best of bad options.  Nothing you say changes my point of view...nor will it change it at anytime in the future.  

I think your continued obsessiveness of it is hilarious.  Let it go.   Breathe in...breathe out...

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

A guy playing 8-10 minutes per game as a stop gap measure and backup doesn't have to be any kind of game changer/playmaker...just a guy who doesn't totally screw up/blow it for the team in his 8-10 minutes, which Derrick doesn't do.  That doesn't make him a GOOD option for 32 minutes a game as the primary offensive conduit.

Sorry, I just don't think I am vastly overstating it...his offensive limitations were crippling to the team...and of historically bad proportions.  I mean this is high major, D-1 basketball - a PG who makes exactly 1 3pt shot in 966 minutes of play?  I suspect you couldn't find another guard in the last 5 years who's played that many minutes and made just 1 3pt shot.  The 3pt shot is becoming a huge part of the game as you know..

Again, fine, but if he is historically bad, and a crippling PG, then he should have been crippling MU for the 13MPG he played the year before, right?

Was MU a significantly worse team when DW played vs when JC played?

Would those stats interest you?

[NersEllenson]

It's valid when people counter the fact that Derrick was top ten in 8 statistical categories with the argument that anyone playing his amount of minutes would have accomplished the same thing.

Please remind of the 8 statistical categories Derrick Wilson was in the Top 10 of in the Big East?  But guess what...a PG playing 31 minutes a game is going to get assists, steals and rebounds..Derrick's numbers in those categories where exactly 0.1, 0.1, and 0.8 per game better than the AVERAGE PG in the Big East.

[tower912]

But they were still better.