Poll: Derrick Wilson minutes

[g0lden3agle]

Eleven scholarships.   I am pleased Sandy is coming but I do not expect him to play much next season.   Once Luke is eligible, I see 80 minutes divided between Luke, STjr, Deonte and Juan up front.  This leaves 120 minutes to split between Matt, Mayo, JJJ, Duane, Derrick, and Dawson.  I predict a lot of interchangeability, with Matt, Duane, and Dawson all seeing minutes at more than one position.  Mayo and JJJ are strictly SG's, Derrick is strictly a PG.   With MU's lack of size, the on-ball pressure is going to be vital.   If Wojo extends the pressure, I have no problem seeing Derrick getting around 18-20 mpg.  I can also picture sets where, with his strength, he is guarding a much bigger player.   It's all speculation, and I realize I may be completely wrong, but right now it is all we have.  

Man o man this team could use a big man transfer that's eligible next year.  Would really help balance this team out some.

[Ari Gold]

I voted with my heart... and because < 0 wasn't an option

[Sunbelt15]

I say 2-4 mins. depending on if Duane is that playmaker I expect him to be. If he is, Derrick sees little time only because he's a senior.

[MUSF]

It is beyond head scratching at this point in the poll 15 people WANT Derrick to play 17-30 minutes a game...did people not get nauseated enough last season seeing us flounder to a 17-15 record with ZERO wins over Top 25 teams?

First off, the poll question is flawed. I want Derrick to get around 17-20 minutes based on the assumption that he earns those 17-20 minutes. In order for that to happen, he will have to improve offensively. I don't want Derrick to play more minutes than he deserves, but I think MU would be a better team if he can earn 20 mins a game.

I don't know what I can say in this post that will stop you from making the logical leaps you use to build your narrative. You keep doing this over and over again. It seems your argument here breaks down like this.

Derrick was bad last year
MU was bad last year
Therefore, Derrick was the reason MU was bad last year
Anyone that wants Derrick to play significant minutes must want MU to be bad next year

I don't think Derrick's play was the cause of last year's problems. He was certainly one of the causes, but he still did plenty of things pretty well. His experience, defense, and ball control will be valuable next year if he can improve offensively.

[Wojo'sMojo]

First off, the poll question is flawed. I want Derrick to get around 17-20 minutes based on the assumption that he earns those 17-20 minutes. In order for that to happen, he will have to improve offensively. I don't want Derrick to play more minutes than he deserves, but I think MU would be a better team if he can earn 20 mins a game.

I don't know what I can say in this post that will stop you from making the logical leaps you use to build your narrative. You keep doing this over and over again. It seems your argument here breaks down like this.

Derrick was bad last year
MU was bad last year
Therefore, Derrick was the reason MU was bad last year
Anyone that wants Derrick to play significant minutes must want MU to be bad next year

I don't think Derrick's play was the cause of last year's problems. He was certainly one of the causes, but he still did plenty of things pretty well. His experience, defense, and ball control will be valuable next year if he can improve offensively.

In my opinion, Derrick was the main reason we were bad last year. Not the only reason, but the main reason. What do you think he did well at? His defense was solid to good, depending on the game...not the defensive game changer some make him out to be. His ball control is average. For how few creative things he does on offense, I think his turnover rate is pretty high. He spends 90% of his time swinging the ball around the perimeter, so I think his ball control is more misleading than anything. He would have to play Gary Payton type defense to make up for his offensive shortcomings and I don't know if that would even be worth it to give him playing time.

[NersEllenson]

In my opinion, Derrick was the main reason we were bad last year. Not the only reason, but the main reason. What do you think he did well at? His defense was solid to good, depending on the game...not the defensive game changer some make him out to be. His ball control is average. For how few creative things he does on offense, I think his turnover rate is pretty high. He spends 90% of his time swinging the ball around the perimeter, so I think his ball control is more misleading than anything. He would have to play Gary Payton type defense to make up for his offensive shortcomings and I don't know if that would even be worth it to give him playing time.

What he said...

I'll tack on:  Many of Derrick's backers and believers here, who seem to think he wasn't the major culprit (other than Buzz choosing to play Derrick max minutes), are already backpedaling for next season from the question of if they believe the team will have a better record in 2014-2015 than this past season - coinciding with the fact that Derrick's minutes are likely to be greatly reduced...which they will be...and I'd be shocked if team doesn't have a better record, even though it will be small, lost its two leading scorers from last year, and 20 years of college basketball experience between Chris, Jake, Jamil and Davante.

Personally, I don't think Derrick, other than having great character and being a hard worker, has any "plus" skills at the high major level...other than being a slightly better than average defender.  Everything else with regard to the game, he's quite subpar as a high major D-1 basketball player. 

[PGsHeroes32]

2 minutes.

Every game needs some comic relief.

[MUSF]

What he said...

I'll tack on:  Many of Derrick's backers and believers here, who seem to think he wasn't the major culprit (other than Buzz choosing to play Derrick max minutes), are already backpedaling for next season from the question of if they believe the team will have a better record in 2014-2015 than this past season - coinciding with the fact that Derrick's minutes are likely to be greatly reduced...which they will be...and I'd be shocked if team doesn't have a better record, even though it will be small, lost its two leading scorers from last year, and 20 years of college basketball experience between Chris, Jake, Jamil and Davante.

Personally, I don't think Derrick, other than having great character and being a hard worker, has any "plus" skills at the high major level...other than being a slightly better than average defender.  Everything else with regard to the game, he's quite subpar as a high major D-1 basketball player. 

I won't backpedal from any Derrick questions. I'm sure he will have reduced minutes next year, and we may very well have a better record. That doesn't mean that the former will have caused the latter. You want everyone to accept this argument that if Derrick has reduced minutes and the team gets better, then Derrick was responsible for our sub-par record the year before. I don't think this is a valid argument.

I also think Derrick's defense, ball handling, athleticism, are all "plus" skills for a high major point guard. He has a major deficiency on offense. If he can get his jump shot and FTs up to the serviceable level, he will be the best option at point guard. If he can't, he is still a solid backup PG because he will protect the ball, defend, and won't make major mistakes.

I keep hearing how horrible Derrick is. Many of you claim he isn't even a high major player. This narrative that Derrick doesn't do anything well except play okay defense is completely false.

Derrick Wilson was top five in the Big East in the following categories
Assists per game
Steals per game
Assist percentage
Assist to turnover ratio

Top ten in the following categories
Assists
Steals
Steal percentage

He was NOT in the top ten in minutes.

[CTWarrior]

Personally, I don't think Derrick, other than having great character and being a hard worker, has any "plus" skills at the high major level...other than being a slightly better than average defender.  Everything else with regard to the game, he's quite subpar as a high major D-1 basketball player. 

Ners' never-ending discussion of this topic may be annoying, but this is a succinct, very accurate summary of Derrick Wilson the basketball player. 

[MUSF]

Ners' never-ending discussion of this topic may be annoying, but this is a succinct, very accurate summary of Derrick Wilson the basketball player. 

No it's not.

A sub-par high major D-1 point guard couldn't finish in the top ten of 8 statistical categories in the Big East, no matter how many minutes he played.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think it will 9-16 minutes. I base that off things I know.

I know Carlino was a better PG last season than Derrick
I know Derrick was a solid backup in his freshman and sophomore years. Many here even advocated for him starting over Cadougan.
I know Derrick can only play the 1
I know JJJ and Mayo cannot play the 1
I know Carlino, Duane, Dawson, and Cohen can play the 1, 2, or even 3 in a three/four guard set
I know Taylor/Anderson/Luke/Burton are only "big men," meaning our guards will have to play out of position a lot.

What we don't know:
Will Derrick imporve?
Will Carlino regress?
Is Duane as good as advertised?
Will Dawson/JJJ shine or wither with more minutes?
What scheme will Wojo use?
What earns you playing time in Wojo's eyes?
Is there another player on his way to us in 2014?
Will Cohen be good enough to earn playing time?

[CTWarrior]

No it's not.

A sub-par high major D-1 point guard couldn't finish in the top ten of 8 statistical categories in the Big East, no matter how many minutes he played.

Yes he would if he has the ball in his possession 75% of the time for 30+ mpg with nobody guarding him.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yes he would if he has the ball in his possession 75% of the time for 30+ mpg with nobody guarding him.

As MUSF pointed, D Wilson was not in the top 10 in minutes played. So it was more than just him getting the ball a lot.

I would not call Derrick Wilson great at an one specific thing other than ball control and rebounding (for a PG). However, I would only call him terrible at shooting.

[NersEllenson]

I keep hearing how horrible Derrick is. Many of you claim he isn't even a high major player. This narrative that Derrick doesn't do anything well except play okay defense is completely false.

Derrick Wilson was top five in the Big East in the following categories
Assists per game
Steals per game
Assist percentage
Assist to turnover ratio

Top ten in the following categories
Assists
Steals
Steal percentage

He was NOT in the top ten in minutes.

Derrick at best at this level is a backup PG, good for 10 minutes per game maximum..if you want the team to win.

Perhaps the below chart of Big East PG's as a comparison will shed some light.  How many more games would MU have won this past season if it's PG just met the Big East average PPG for Point Guards of 12.2ppg?  If our PG averaged 7.1ppg more, MU would have won roughly 8 more games

Player   Team    Min.   PPG   FG%   3P%   FT%   APG   REB   STL   TO
Starks   GT   36.8   17.1   42   33   86   4.1   2.1   0.9   2.4
S. Gibbs   SH   30.4   13.7   42   37   74   4.2   3   1.1   2.2
Cotton   PC   40.1   21.7   42   38   85   5.9   3.6   1   2.4
Arcidiacono   NOV   30.8   10   40   35   70   3.5   2.4   1   1.4
Wilson   MAR 30.9   5.1   39   7   44   4.2   3.8   1.3   1.5
Chatman   CRE   29.4   7.6   40   40   77   4.3   3.5   0.6   1.7
Davis    XAVI   30.5   7.7   39   38   84   4.9   1.8   1.1   2
Young   DEP   34.8   16.2   44   26   68   3.6   4.1   1.8   3.1
Barlow   BUT   32.6   6.7   39   40   77   3.5   3.8   2   1.1
Jordan   STJ   26   9.4   41   26   67   3.1   3.1   1.3   2.2
Average      32.4   12.2   41   35   76   4.1   3   1.2   2.1
Derrick Rank   5th   10th   T-8th   10th   10th   T-4th   T-2nd   T-3rd   T-3rd
Derrick Deviation   -1.5   -7.1   -2   -28   -32   0.1   0.8   0.1   0.6

Derrick's variance in the main categories that matter - Points per game, 3pt shooting percentage, FT% are so far below the average PG in Big East, and his areas where he is above average (assists, rebounds, steals) are so minimal above the average PG...it renders the point moot.  Nor can stats reveal that Derrick in conference play generally would not attempt a FG outside of 3' unless a desperation shot at the shot clock expiration, nor can stats quantify him not needing to be guarded within 5' on the perimeter and how that negatively impacted all the other guys on the team...other than the below point..

Last season MU ranked 96th in Offensive Efficiency in the country the next worst season under Buzz was 2012 where we finished 52nd...all other season's under Buzz we were in Top 25 in Offensive Efficiency.  What changed?  Buzz's system that was Top 25 good in 4 seasons, and Top 52 good in 1 season....all of a sudden has an outlier at 96??

Care to debate the point further?

[Stretchdeltsig]

I expect Derrick may play 8-10 minutes per game for his defense.  Although his defense was not that good last year.  I think he could slip to third on the PG depth chart next year.

[MUSF]

Care to debate the point further?

Yes, because none of the "evidence" you are offering up proves your skewed narrative that Derrick is the primary cause of our poor season. I'm no stats wizard, but I think it's a stretch to claim that increased ppg by one player would be directly proportional to team wins. How did you determine that Derricks increased ppg would be a net gain for MU, and not at the expense of other players points?

Furthermore, you are changing the argument again. You claimed that Derrick was sub-par in every area except defense. I countered by showing actual evidence to the contrary, at which point you go back to the argument that his offense is so exceptionally horrible that everything else doesn't matter. Which is it? Is he a non-high major talent in everything but defense? Or is he a high major talent in everything but offense? My argument and your evidence support the latter.

[NersEllenson]

Yes, because none of the "evidence" you are offering up proves your skewed narrative that Derrick is the primary cause of our poor season. I'm no stats wizard, but I think it's a stretch to claim that increased ppg by one player would be directly proportional to team wins. How did you determine that Derricks increased ppg would be a net gain for MU, and not at the expense of other players points?

Furthermore, you are changing the argument again. You claimed that Derrick was sub-par in every area except defense. I countered by showing actual evidence to the contrary, at which point you go back to the argument that his offense is so exceptionally horrible that everything else doesn't matter. Which is it? Is he a non-high major talent in everything but defense? Or is he a high major talent in everything but offense? My argument and your evidence support the latter.

So in your amazing "evidence," Derrick exceeding the AVERAGE PG in the Big East in assists per game by 0.1 per game putting him 4th in Big East, rebounds per game at 0.8 above the average PG in Big East good for 2nd among PGs, and finishing 0.1 steals per game better good for 2nd in conference, while turning it over 0.6 times less per game all negate the 7.7ppg scoring deficit, 28% 3pt shooting percentage deficit,  32% FT percentage deficit??  Sorry, but those 0.1, 0.8, and 0.1 stats of being better than the average PG in Big East nowhere near make up for the huge deficits in the other categories.

And my narrative isn't skewed..Derrick was the primary cause of the poor season due to Buzz choosing to play him max minutes (which isn't Derrick's fault).  Watch what happens this upcoming season when you have a PG that needs to be defended everywhere, can make 3 point shots and FTS.

But...if you want to say if Derrick scored more, it would have taken away other guys PPG...that's fine...but when he goes to the FT line and misses at a 57% clip...those are points that he's failing to get for the team.

As I said, he's at best a backup PG good for 10 minutes.  There can be a role for a guy like that on a good basketball team - but please for the love of God....stop trying to make a silly case for him not being a liability on the floor as a max minutes PG.  No team will win many games when its own coach says they are playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end of the court...and that was truth from Buzz...we did play 4 on 5 all year long and that's how you go 17-15, 9-9 and miss the NIT coming off of an Elite 8 season and returning more letter winners than ever before in the history of Buzz's tenure.

[HutchwasClutch]

I didn't read everyone's post, but I didn't see it mentioned as I skimmed them- he can get to the basket and he's strong enough to finish a lot of drives.  Problem becomes when he gets fouled and doesn't get the hoop.  I think is FT percent was under 50 last year?  That is sinful for an experienced PG at the D-1 level.  If he could just increase his FT percentage alone to about 70-75% next year- his value to the team would increase infinitely.

Agree with others that he's a good on ball defender, nothing special  though.

[Wojo'sMojo]

I didn't read everyone's post, but I didn't see it mentioned as I skimmed them- he can get to the basket and he's strong enough to finish a lot of drives.  Problem becomes when he gets fouled and doesn't get the hoop.  I think is FT percent was under 50 last year?  That is sinful for an experienced PG at the D-1 level.  If he could just increase his FT percentage alone to about 70-75% next year- his value to the team would increase infinitely.

Agree with others that he's a good on ball defender, nothing special  though.

He shot 43% from the line last year. He can get to the rim, but he looks like a fish out of water when he gets there. He is a very below average finisher.

[HutchwasClutch]

He shot 43% from the line last year. He can get to the rim, but he looks like a fish out of water when he gets there. He is a very below average finisher.

Disagree with that assessment - he knows how to use his wide build and strength around the rim, is under control, uses glass when he can, and his touch is pretty good (near the rim only- otherwise horrid).  He's not great finishing around the rim, but not below average either. 

[NersEllenson]

Disagree with that assessment - he knows how to use his wide build and strength around the rim, is under control, uses glass when he can, and his touch is pretty good (near the rim only- otherwise horrid).  He's not great finishing around the rim, but not below average either. 

Derrick is decent getting to the basket....considering his guy is usually 5' off of him...it generally doesn't happen off the bounce, but getting the ball on a cut to the basket..and when he does..he does use his body well...yet he has a hard time finishing...as evidenced by his 39% FG% which is incredibly low, when roughly 80% of his FG Attempts come from point blank range.

[MUSF]

So in your amazing "evidence," Derrick exceeding the AVERAGE PG in the Big East in assists per game by 0.1 per game putting him 4th in Big East, rebounds per game at 0.8 above the average PG in Big East good for 2nd among PGs, and finishing 0.1 steals per game better good for 2nd in conference, while turning it over 0.6 times less per game all negate the 7.7ppg scoring deficit, 28% 3pt shooting percentage deficit,  32% FT percentage deficit??  Sorry, but those 0.1, 0.8, and 0.1 stats of being better than the average PG in Big East nowhere near make up for the huge deficits in the other categories.

And my narrative isn't skewed..Derrick was the primary cause of the poor season due to Buzz choosing to play him max minutes (which isn't Derrick's fault).  Watch what happens this upcoming season when you have a PG that needs to be defended everywhere, can make 3 point shots and FTS.

But...if you want to say if Derrick scored more, it would have taken away other guys PPG...that's fine...but when he goes to the FT line and misses at a 57% clip...those are points that he's failing to get for the team.

As I said, he's at best a backup PG good for 10 minutes.  There can be a role for a guy like that on a good basketball team - but please for the love of God....stop trying to make a silly case for him not being a liability on the floor as a max minutes PG.  No team will win many games when its own coach says they are playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end of the court...and that was truth from Buzz...we did play 4 on 5 all year long and that's how you go 17-15, 9-9 and miss the NIT coming off of an Elite 8 season and returning more letter winners than ever before in the history of Buzz's tenure.

I never made any of the arguments you are attacking in the first paragraph of your post. You and others have said that Derrick doesn't have high major ability. I am arguing that he does except for some major shooting deficiencies. I never argued that his stats in other areas negate his poor shooting. You keep saying this, but it's not my position. Remember, I only argued that Derrick should get significant minutes if he can get his shot up to a serviceable level.

Your narrative and your use of stats are both skewed. You have shown a lot of evidence that Derrick is a poor scorer and a good defender, distributor, and ball protector, but nothing that proves he is the primary cause for our poor season. You are trying to prove a causal relationship with stats that don't support the claim.

You also use the term average point guard incorrectly to support your position. Your comparison isn't of all point guards, only starting point guards. So Derrick is truly above the average starting point guards in several important categories. That would be pretty hard to do for a guy without high major ability.

[NersEllenson]

I never made any of the arguments you are attacking in the first paragraph of your post. You and others have said that Derrick doesn't have high major ability. I am arguing that he does except for some major shooting deficiencies. I never argued that his stats in other areas negate his poor shooting. You keep saying this, but it's not my position. Remember, I only argued that Derrick should get significant minutes if he can get his shot up to a serviceable level.

Your narrative and your use of stats are both skewed. You have shown a lot of evidence that Derrick is a poor scorer and a good defender, distributor, and ball protector, but nothing that proves he is the primary cause for our poor season. You are trying to prove a causal relationship with stats that don't support the claim.

You also use the term average point guard incorrectly to support your position. Your comparison isn't of all point guards, only starting point guards. So Derrick is truly above the average starting point guards in several important categories. That would be pretty hard to do for a guy without high major ability.

Derrick was our starting PG last year.  And the stats I provided compared him to the other starters.  Getting an assist or rebound aren't exactly hallmarks of having high major D-1 ability.  Truly..any player that is on a D1 scholarship as a PG and gets 32 minutes per game is going to get assists and rebounds and a few steals.  Derrick barely does any of those things better than the average PG in the Big East.  But he is WAY below average in the more critical areas - scoring, shooting, FT shooting, 3 point shooting.

He is a backup at best at this level.  Period.  Doesn't mean he doesn't have high major ability...but just that his ability is that as a backup, a stop gap, at best...and when you force him to be a 32 minute a game player as Buzz did last year...that causes major problems on a team..especially when the deficiency is at the most critical position on a basketball team.  It's a guards game, and a PG's world in college hoops...you simply cannot have a guy that challenged offensively at that position 32 minutes a game and expect to have a good team.

Vander Blue and Trent Lockett are not the reasons why this team went from an Elite 8 team to missing the NIT.  Would Vander have been near the slasher if he had to deal with Derrick's defender collapsing the paint and being able to help off of Derrick 6'?  Did MU have any semblance of a fast break/transition game this past season?  Why didn't it have a fast break/transition game?  How do you explain playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end doesn't hurt a basketball team and cause it to not be very good??

It all trickles down to effect the other guys on the team...when one guy is ZERO threat to make a perimeter shot, won't shoot one, and if he does, shoots 7% from the 3point line.

[TJ]

As many as he earns based on his play.  If he plays like this past year then backup minutes; if he improves then as much as he is capable of.

[jesmu84]

I won't backpedal from any Derrick questions. I'm sure he will have reduced minutes next year, and we may very well have a better record. That doesn't mean that the former will have caused the latter. You want everyone to accept this argument that if Derrick has reduced minutes and the team gets better, then Derrick was responsible for our sub-par record the year before. I don't think this is a valid argument.

I also think Derrick's defense, ball handling, athleticism, are all "plus" skills for a high major point guard. He has a major deficiency on offense. If he can get his jump shot and FTs up to the serviceable level, he will be the best option at point guard. If he can't, he is still a solid backup PG because he will protect the ball, defend, and won't make major mistakes.

I keep hearing how horrible Derrick is. Many of you claim he isn't even a high major player. This narrative that Derrick doesn't do anything well except play okay defense is completely false.

Derrick Wilson was top five in the Big East in the following categories
Assists per game
Steals per game
Assist percentage
Assist to turnover ratio

Top ten in the following categories
Assists
Steals
Steal percentage

He was NOT in the top ten in minutes.

DING DING DING

logical fallacy