Woj Colored Glasses

[brewcity77]

I think you summarized the pro-Wojo line of thinking very well here. What I wonder, though, is whether think line of thinking was established before Wojo arrived, or if this is something that many people have talked themselves into given our current situation. I assume some held these opinions on what qualifies as legitimate success for a coach all along, but I have a strong feeling that a good portion of the #respecttheprocess crew have backed into their criteria for success.

The thing that makes me the most confused and even frustrated at times is the number of coaches that posters here criticize or downplay in some kind of attempt to make Wojo look better. Downplaying other coaches' success as just being the result of more fortunate circumstances than we have dealt with doesn't improve our record or our shot at making the tournament. I guess judging a coach's ability is usually a relative comparison, but I find most of the criticism of other coaches to be awfully hypocritical.

I was pro Cuonzo before Wojo was hired. After watching what he did to Cal, that easily could've been us. I don't think I'm belittling Keatts or Hurley, but the jury is still out. Let's see where they are in 2-4 years before we declare them more successful than Wojo. As far as Buzz, he's the most fair comp. Currently he's ahead, but will he sustain and will he stay at that job would be my two questions.

I have some serious issues with Wojo. The defense is infuriating. Going back to Howard & Rowsey was maddening. Every year we seem to have 2-3 inexplicable losses. But I do feel next year is what he's been building towards. He didn't inherit what Buzz did at Marquette, so it's hard to have equivalent expectations.

If we're here again next year (on the bubble) I can't see any rationale for not looking at options. Even if there are injuries or roster issues, that's on him because that will be the roster he constructed. 5 years to judge has been a staple of this board for as long as I've been here. I think it's fair to give Wojo that same staple.

[GGGG]

I was pro Cuonzo before Wojo was hired. After watching what he did to Cal, that easily could've been us. I don't think I'm belittling Keatts or Hurley, but the jury is still out. Let's see where they are in 2-4 years before we declare them more successful than Wojo. As far as Buzz, he's the most fair comp. Currently he's ahead, but will he sustain and will he stay at that job would be my two questions.

I have some serious issues with Wojo. The defense is infuriating. Going back to Howard & Rowsey was maddening. Every year we seem to have 2-3 inexplicable losses. But I do feel next year is what he's been building towards. He didn't inherit what Buzz did at Marquette, so it's hard to have equivalent expectations.

If we're here again next year (on the bubble) I can't see any rationale for not looking at options. Even if there are injuries or roster issues, that's on him because that will be the roster he constructed. 5 years to judge has been a staple of this board for as long as I've been here. I think it's fair to give Wojo that same staple.

In the same boat.

[muguru]

What I wonder about Wojo, is does he ever "converse" with his circle of Coaching buddies, to look for some ideas/help to fix things, especially defensively?? I mean, yeah Coach K has his own team to Coach, but I'm pretty certain if Wojo called him asking for advice, he'd be more than happy to give it. Now, that doesn't mean it will 100% work, but sometimes an outside perspective is a refreshing tool to use. Buzz used to do it all the time. You can't be so stubborn, that especially as a young Coach, you can't lean on others outside your circle to look for tips, suggestions, ideas etc.

[Galway Eagle]

DePaul vs St Johns head to head you’re going DePaul? It’s probably splitting hairs but I think DePaul is definitely the worst team in the conference

SJU is in last place.

[Herman Cain]

SJU is in last place.

They also beat Duke and Villanova.   

[LAZER]

In the same boat.

I think most fans are in this boat. Curious what you feel a successful 18-19 season looks like? 11 BE wins? 8 seed or better?

[GGGG]

I think most fans are in this boat. Curious what you feel a successful 18-19 season looks like? 11 BE wins? 8 seed or better?

See my sig.

4th place in BE. Around a 5 seed in the NCAA.

[NickelDimer]

SJU is in last place.

So gun to head you’re taking DePaul over St Johns on a neutral floor right?

[brewcity77]

I think most fans are in this boat. Curious what you feel a successful 18-19 season looks like? 11 BE wins? 8 seed or better?

My hopes would be 20+ regular season wins, 11-12 of those in league play with a 3rd place or better finish, and a safe NCAA seed (4-7) is my baseline. Now if we're 20-11 (10-8) and an 8 seed, that's okay, but it certainly isn't "give the man an extension" territory.

Honestly, we should be good enough that we're regularly receiving votes and never feel like a NCAA bid is in doubt.

[Galway Eagle]

They also beat Duke and Villanova.

So? They're in last place. The numbers show SJU is the worst team in the conference at this point

 

So gun to head you’re taking DePaul over St Johns on a neutral floor right?

I would take SJU but that would be subjective. Objectively SJU is in 10th thus they are the worst team in the conference.

[cheese ball chaser]

So? They're in last place. The numbers show SJU is the worst team in the conference at this point

 
I would take SJU but that would be subjective. Objectively SJU is in 10th thus they are the worst team in the conference.

See, I agree with you. I don't like the "But X team beat Y team!" argument as an excuse to losing to bottom of the barrel BE teams. A few wins does not determine whether or not a team is good, in my opinion. Looking at their total body of work, DePaul and St.Johns are both bad teams.

[fjm]

I just don't get it.

There are some guys on here who just last week said we are back! And are now complaining.


Having said that, how many TRULY thought this was an NCAA year?
We lost 3 seniors that were starters (for the most part) and were a significant part of your scoring.

We added 4 freshmen and a guy from Australia who has not lived up.

I legitimately (and many others did also) felt/knew this was a minor step back year and likely NIT year.

Also how many people here said :
This years team will be infuriating. Win some we shouldn't, lose some we shouldn't. (Exactly what we've done. Lost to DePaul, stjohns, and Georgia)
Beat: SHU twice, creigthon.

[onepost]

I've never been in the "Fire Wojo" camp, but was really disappointed in how he handled yesterday's game.  We have no-doubt, surefire evidence that when you play Howard/Rowsey together that bad things just happen.  No need to expound on defense as that has been hammered home ad nauseum.  On offense, the ball movement and cutting you saw against Creighton and SJU never happens, because you have 2/3 guys standing in place watching one of the two go ISO or run the pick and pop with Sam for the 10th time in a half.  Elliot and Cain being no shows yesterday after awesome outings the last two didn't surprise me in the slightest simply because of Howard and Rowsey's presence together out there.  And yet, when we went cold from 3 (seriously, how do NONE of those open attempts fall?) to start the second half and things got a little tight, Wojo panicked and brought them back together.  I know our defense was actually not half bad yesterday but DePaul shot 18% from deep, why not go zone early and more often and save ourselves from getting EVERYONE in foul trouble and simultaneously from giving up 20 offensive boards?

All this to say, it's concerning that Wojo refuses to adapt to things we see are working for this team.  And more concerning that in an absolute must-win, where the opposing garbage team has nothing to play for, in at worst a neutral court game, we come out flat for the majority of both halves.  It's getting to the point where I just don't trust Wojo as a reliable in-game coach, and as sad as it sounds my highest hope for him is to be a poor man's John Calipari: in that he can bring in a ton of talent (a substantial tier below Cal's level of talent mind you), and we'll have to hope the talent he brings in will be able to overcome and mask his deficiencies as a coach.

As TAMU and others have stated all year, it's all building to next year.  We'll have 6 upperclassmen, 3 sophomores who have all played a ton of minutes, and the biggest recruit Wojo has brought in to date.  We will be absolutely loaded with experienced talent while the rest of the league will seemingly be taking a step back, and until then I can't be out on him.  As much as I would love to see what a Steve Forbes, Danny Hurley, etc. could do with this collection of players, Wojo will likely be given a leash the length of Sam and Markus' MU careers.

[GGGG]

I've never been in the "Fire Wojo" camp, but was really disappointed in how he handled yesterday's game.  We have no-doubt, surefire evidence that when you play Howard/Rowsey together that bad things just happen.

We also have no-doubt, surefire evidence that when you play Howard/Rowsey together that good things happen.

[WarriorDad]

I've never been in the "Fire Wojo" camp, but was really disappointed in how he handled yesterday's game.  We have no-doubt, surefire evidence that when you play Howard/Rowsey together that bad things just happen.  No need to expound on defense as that has been hammered home ad nauseum.  On offense, the ball movement and cutting you saw against Creighton and SJU never happens, because you have 2/3 guys standing in place watching one of the two go ISO or run the pick and pop with Sam for the 10th time in a half.  Elliot and Cain being no shows yesterday after awesome outings the last two didn't surprise me in the slightest simply because of Howard and Rowsey's presence together out there.  And yet, when we went cold from 3 (seriously, how do NONE of those open attempts fall?) to start the second half and things got a little tight, Wojo panicked and brought them back together.  I know our defense was actually not half bad yesterday but DePaul shot 18% from deep, why not go zone early and more often and save ourselves from getting EVERYONE in foul trouble and simultaneously from giving up 20 offensive boards?

All this to say, it's concerning that Wojo refuses to adapt to things we see are working for this team.  And more concerning that in an absolute must-win, where the opposing garbage team has nothing to play for, in at worst a neutral court game, we come out flat for the majority of both halves.  It's getting to the point where I just don't trust Wojo as a reliable in-game coach, and as sad as it sounds my highest hope for him is to be a poor man's John Calipari: in that he can bring in a ton of talent (a substantial tier below Cal's level of talent mind you), and we'll have to hope the talent he brings in will be able to overcome and mask his deficiencies as a coach.

As TAMU and others have stated all year, it's all building to next year.  We'll have 6 upperclassmen, 3 sophomores who have all played a ton of minutes, and the biggest recruit Wojo has brought in to date.  We will be absolutely loaded with experienced talent while the rest of the league will seemingly be taking a step back, and until then I can't be out on him.  As much as I would love to see what a Steve Forbes, Danny Hurley, etc. could do with this collection of players, Wojo will likely be given a leash the length of Sam and Markus' MU careers.

Do we not also have no doubt, sure fire evidence that playing them together also has led to good things too?  Didn't we just beat Depaul handily with those two playing together? Did we not take Villanova down to the wire (under 30 seconds) with those two playing together?  Wins over LSU, Providence, Seton Hall (2), Wisconsin, Vermont, with those two playing together?

Maybe it is just me, but it seems when we beat teams with those two playing together people are quiet. When we lose with those two playing together it is because those two played together? 

[skianth16]

I just don't get it.

There are some guys on here who just last week said we are back! And are now complaining.


Having said that, how many TRULY thought this was an NCAA year?
We lost 3 seniors that were starters (for the most part) and were a significant part of your scoring.

We added 4 freshmen and a guy from Australia who has not lived up.

I legitimately (and many others did also) felt/knew this was a minor step back year and likely NIT year.

Also how many people here said :
This years team will be infuriating. Win some we shouldn't, lose some we shouldn't. (Exactly what we've done. Lost to DePaul, stjohns, and Georgia)
Beat: SHU twice, creigthon.

We're ending up where a lot of fans thought we would be if you had asked them before the season began. Once we started playing, though, a lot of people changed their opinions and raised their expectations. A few games into conference play, it was realistic to expect this team to make the tournament. Heck, 2 weeks ago, a lot of us were still pretty confident we'd be dancing.

The back half of conference play, specifically the last 2-3 weeks, have been disappointing, and we've trended in the wrong direction. We played our way back down to pre-season expectations lately, and that's been painful to watch.

[tower912]

Why?  There's has about the record I thought they would and that prediction was with Haanif.  I started a thread saying that the expectations for the season should change. 
We've trended downward as other teams figured out our limited options.   Sometimes the frosh stepped up, sometimes they fell down trying to dribble.   Wojo only has so many arrows in the quiver.  See the SOTG list.  If you were coaching against Marquette, wouldn't you do whatever you can to stop the 3 shooters and dare the other 6 to beat you?

[wadesworld]

What turned last season around to get us into the NCAA Tournament?  What was the roster move?

Oh yeah, it was inserting Rowsey into the starting lineup, joining...you guessed it, Markus.

We saw a half of very good basketball without Howard in the lineup and then we saw a game against the worst team in the Big East without Howard in the lineup.  I'm not sure you can conclude without any doubt that we are a better team when our 2 best offensive players average 20 minutes a piece.

[1SE]

Do we not also have no doubt, sure fire evidence that playing them together also has led to good things too?  Didn't we just beat Depaul handily with those two playing together? Did we not take Villanova down to the wire (under 30 seconds) with those two playing together?  Wins over LSU, Providence, Seton Hall (2), Wisconsin, Vermont, with those two playing together?

Maybe it is just me, but it seems when we beat teams with those two playing together people are quiet. When we lose with those two playing together it is because those two played together?

Distinctive timing. Most of those wins in the earlier part of the season. Other teams made adjustments to us playing two midgets. We made no adjustments (except when forced to by injury).

[tower912]

The line up adjustments were freshmen.   

[Floorslapper]

We also have no-doubt, surefire evidence that when you play Howard/Rowsey together that good things happen.

I'll go with recency.  We have exactly 1 win in the last 11 games when both Andrew and Markus play over 20.  Markus played 20 minutes in the first DePaul game.  Furthermore I don't exactly count wins over Wisconsin, LSU and Vermont in November/early December as the holy grail of proof.  None of those teams are even Top 50.

We have plenty of proof we get slaughtered in FTA yielded every game in M2M defense.  Oddly our FT's yielded went down by nearly 50% against Creighton and St. John's. (Zone).  Additionally we seem to rebound better out of a zone.

[skianth16]

I'll go with recency.  We have exactly 1 win in the last 11 games when both Andrew and Markus play over 20.  Markus played 20 minutes in the first DePaul game.  Furthermore I don't exactly count wins over Wisconsin, LSU and Vermont in November/early December as the holy grail of proof.  None of those teams are even Top 50.

We have plenty of proof we get slaughtered in FTA yielded every game in M2M defense.  Oddly our FT's yielded went down by nearly 50% against Creighton and St. John's. (Zone).  Additionally we seem to rebound better out of a zone.

It seems painfully obvious that our zone D has provided good outcomes. What is it that the coaching staff is seeing that we aren't that would lead them away from zone? Are they so focused on offensive output that defensive improvements take a backseat? As a fan, it's frustrating, to say the least. It just doesn't make sense.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

It seems painfully obvious that our zone D has provided good outcomes. What is it that the coaching staff is seeing that we aren't that would lead them away from zone? Are they so focused on offensive output that defensive improvements take a backseat? As a fan, it's frustrating, to say the least. It just doesn't make sense.

To date,  Creighton is the only game where our zone defense was statistically  more effective than the M2M. The harder question to answer is how the zone impacts the offense and rebounding. Conventional basketball wisdom says it should hurt us in those areas...but our two game sample says the opposite. Do we actually rebound better out of the zone?  Or did we have two games where we rebounded out of our minds and the zone had nothing to do with it?  I don't know. Conventional basketball wisdom isn't always right.

The midgets not playing together I'm on board with. We have a lot of data that says they are better apart this season

[Floorslapper]

To date,  Creighton is the only game where our zone defense was statistically  more effective than the M2M. The harder question to answer is how the zone impacts the offense and rebounding. Conventional basketball wisdom says it should hurt us in those areas...but our two game sample says the opposite. Do we actually rebound better out of the zone?  Or did we have two games where we rebounded out of our minds and the zone had nothing to do with it?  I don't know. Conventional basketball wisdom isn't always right.

The midgets not playing together I'm on board with. We have a lot of data that says they are better apart this season

Wojo has gone exclusively zone in exactly 1 half of basketball this year - against Creighton in the second half and we yielded .94ppp.

What isn’t up to any speculation is we are a fouling machine in M2M defense which isn’t any surprise as we are outsized and outatleticed at every position other than perhaps Sacar and Theo (woh only gets like 8 minutes per game.). Zone hides all those warts and it is also why we rebound better out of a zone.

Ever figure out what our ppp is in Big East play prior to Creighton game?

[BM1090]

Wojo has gone exclusively zone in exactly 1 half of basketball this year - against Creighton in the second half and we yielded .94ppp.

What isn’t up to any speculation is we are a fouling machine in M2M defense which isn’t any surprise as we are outsized and outatleticed at every position other than perhaps Sacar and Theo (woh only gets like 8 minutes per game.). Zone hides all those warts and it is also why we rebound better out of a zone.

Ever figure out what our ppp is in Big East play prior to Creighton game?

The bolded is the biggest reason I think we need to go with one midget and zone for the remainder of the year. I don't care about the points per possession so much, since it seems to be pretty equal Man vs. Zone. I do care about the free throw rate. Our offense is best when we can push the ball off of missed shots. Finding open shooters before the defense fully sets itself or there are mismatches. I'll admit this is eye test, but it seems that our offense is much worse when we put the other team on the line.