Indiana humilated at home by subpar Northwestern

[Jay Bee]

IU is in 7th place, picked to finish 6th this year.  I don't know if they will finish that highly, lot of season left, but ultimately performing so far as expected.

So if you dislike the "picked to finish" deal, then why do you use it to claim that a team is 'performing as expected'?

Why not use... maybe Vegas?

MU lost to New Mexico on a neutral court when slightly favored (1.5 pts?). I believe that is the only game all season MU has lost as the favorite.

I4 was a healthier favorite against the Domers and lost.

But today.. the topic at hand... I4 was favored on their home court by 9 points.

No wonder you went back to a non-metric that you dislike to support the 'performing as expected' line.

[tower912]

What an interesting topic.   Why has no one thought of this before?

[NavinRJohnson]

Really?

Well, when you lose 4 scorers that tallied 1000 points in their career, that's how it happens.  How does a blue blood program like Kentucky make the NIT a year after the NCAA championship?  [/b]
 

As far as fans' mood for forgiveness or cuttting some slack, kind of a key distinction, wouldn't you say?

MU was picked to finish first. That's great. In last year's tournament, IU was picked/seeded to go to the Final Four.

[NavinRJohnson]

Honest question as I have no idea how their recruiting is going...they gonna be any better next year? I can only assume losing Fischer, Sheehey, and probably Vonleh not gonna help any.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So if you dislike the "picked to finish" deal, then why do you use it to claim that a team is 'performing as expected'?

Why not use... maybe Vegas?

MU lost to New Mexico on a neutral court when slightly favored (1.5 pts?). I believe that is the only game all season MU has lost as the favorite.

I4 was a healthier favorite against the Domers and lost.

But today.. the topic at hand... I4 was favored on their home court by 9 points.

No wonder you went back to a non-metric that you dislike to support the 'performing as expected' line.

Vegas isn't about who will win, it is about getting people to bet. Gambling 101...it's about enticing bets, it is not a prediction on who will win and never has been.  Vegas doesn't care who wins, they put a line out there to get people to say "no way, I'm taking X or Y".

I'll repeat what I said many months ago here, I thought MU was overvalued because of our guards.  When people here started saying Final Four and other nonsense, I knew the whack jobs were ruling the roost.  That being said, I did expect MU to be good and certainly better than where we are today, just not first place worthy.  IU is just about where I expected them.  You can't take your top 4 players and lose them and replace them with mostly young guys. 

If you recall, I also said here that Iowa was the darkhorse team in the Big Ten and would be a top 4 in the conference and then the "experts" here started their usual stuff. 

This thread was also about perception, which is what I was responding to.  The national perception is that MU has underachieved.  In fact, in some publications they have us as one of the 10 biggest underachieving \ disappointing teams in the country.  That comes about in several way...you're either overvalued from the start, or not performing to capabilities (or a combination of both). 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2013/12/26/college-basketball-caucus-debating-the-most-disappointing-start/4208269/

[ChicosBailBonds]

Honest question as I have no idea how their recruiting is going...they gonna be any better next year? I can only assume losing Fischer, Sheehey, and probably Vonleh not gonna help any.

Sheehey has been a huge disappointment, he's not a starter, he's a role player. 

They will lack size next year, but will be very good at the guards and wing positions.  In my opinion, they will be better next year, but different.  A completely different looking team.  Losing Fischer is their loss and our gain.

I think MU has a chance to be better next year, but I have been puzzled by Buzz's choice in point guards since the day he arrived.  Acker bailed us out big time or we would have been in trouble that year.  Junior was ok, but I don't put him anywhere close to the level of point guards we have had in the past.  I don't think I need to comment on this year's group....hopefully Duane is as good as touted.   I'm clearly a guards guy, I think without a strong point guard and good shooting guards, you start off in a hole in college hoops.  Buzz is great with wing players, some of the bigs have done well, but I wish he would recruit better guards.  DJO was fantastic.  Buycks was very good.  Vander was inconsistent mostly, but a very nice junior year. Other than that....

[NavinRJohnson]

Sheehey has been a huge disappointment, he's not a starter, he's a role player.  

Agreed, but second in MPG, and 3rd in PPG. That's not an insignificant role. Just appears as though the rebuilding process will be starting all over again next year, for the second consecutive year. That is certainly less than ideal.

[keefe]

Sheehey has been a huge disappointment, he's not a starter, he's a role player. 

I know Tanned Tommy was very disappointed in Sheehey's piss poor acting performance against Minnesota last year. The Beast expected nothing less than a flagrant!

[Jay Bee]

Vegas isn't about who will win, it is about getting people to bet. Gambling 101...it's about enticing bets, it is not a prediction on who will win and never has been.  Vegas doesn't care who wins, they put a line out there to get people to say "no way, I'm taking X or Y".

Be real. Vegas is an excellent predictor.

If you recall, I also said here that Iowa was the darkhorse team in the Big Ten and would be a top 4 in the conference and then the "experts" here started their usual stuff. 

I don't recall this, but I don't understand the relevance. I've said for two years Iowa was poised from a strong 2013-14, stating they looked like a lock as a tourney team (this season) for the past two years. Before this season began I too had them as a top 4 Big Ten team. But so what?

This thread was also about perception, which is what I was responding to.  The national perception is that MU has underachieved.  In fact, in some publications they have us as one of the 10 biggest underachieving \ disappointing teams in the country.  That comes about in several way...you're either overvalued from the start, or not performing to capabilities (or a combination of both). 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2013/12/26/college-basketball-caucus-debating-the-most-disappointing-start/4208269/

This thread was about Indiana losing at home to Northwestern in a game controlled by the Wildcats. It wasn't about MU at all. You tried to make it that while taking the discussion off topic by saying, "IU, doing pretty much what many expected" while citing "national predictions" that you "find ridiculous".

I would agree that much of the mainstream media aren't the most knowledgeable folks. Many are writers by trade and entertainers paid to speak on a subject. A big media name next to your name doesn't create you into a wise man.

That said, Vegas IS a good place to look when we're talking about what is expected by people. And the fact is that MU has lost one game as the favorite (1.5-point favorite), while I4 has lost two including a BIG upset yesterday.. far and away larger than MU's one loss... and that was the subject of the post.

Sorry, but Indiana wasn't expected to lose to Northwestern yesterday. Sorry, but Vegas having the line at 9 points or thereabouts wasn't due to a little game that people play with money - it's a good predictor. Indiana simply isn't doing pretty much what many expected. They are under-performing even with a graduate senior, a sophomore class that was extremely well regarded coming in last season and another strong freshman class that joined this year.

A guy like Hollowell has extreme talent but it hasn't worked for him at I4. Hanner is blessed with amazing gifts. Some of their freshmen are incredible.. Crean and staff just haven't been able to put it together with Sheehey, Yogi and gang.

[ChicosBailBonds]

As far as fans' mood for forgiveness or cuttting some slack, kind of a key distinction, wouldn't you say?

MU was picked to finish first. That's great. In last year's tournament, IU was picked/seeded to go to the Final Four.

Getting picked to make the NCAAs with 65 slots and not making it vs having to get to a Final Four where it is a crap shoot, sorry....big difference in my opinion.  If you are a team like Kentucky and can't make the NCAAs that is pretty bad.

How often have we heard here how deplorable it was for MU not to make it after the Final Four....will people here say the same thing if we don't make it, considering not only were we picked to win the Big East but easily picked to make the tournament.  Heck, if you would have asked people here back in September how many thought we would not make the NCAA tournament, the number would be 0.0%

Hopefully that isn't the case, but the number of teams "picked" to go to the Final Four based on seedings each year that fail is through the roof.  The number of teams picked to win their conference (a power conference) that can't even make the tournament...is very small.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Be real. Vegas is an excellent predictor.

I don't recall this, but I don't understand the relevance. I've said for two years Iowa was poised from a strong 2013-14, stating they looked like a lock as a tourney team (this season) for the past two years. Before this season began I too had them as a top 4 Big Ten team. But so what?

This thread was about Indiana losing at home to Northwestern in a game controlled by the Wildcats. It wasn't about MU at all. You tried to make it that while taking the discussion off topic by saying, "IU, doing pretty much what many expected" while citing "national predictions" that you "find ridiculous".

I would agree that much of the mainstream media aren't the most knowledgeable folks. Many are writers by trade and entertainers paid to speak on a subject. A big media name next to your name doesn't create you into a wise man.

That said, Vegas IS a good place to look when we're talking about what is expected by people. And the fact is that MU has lost one game as the favorite (1.5-point favorite), while I4 has lost two including a BIG upset yesterday.. far and away larger than MU's one loss... and that was the subject of the post.

Sorry, but Indiana wasn't expected to lose to Northwestern yesterday. Sorry, but Vegas having the line at 9 points or thereabouts wasn't due to a little game that people play with money - it's a good predictor. Indiana simply isn't doing pretty much what many expected. They are under-performing even with a graduate senior, a sophomore class that was extremely well regarded coming in last season and another strong freshman class that joined this year.

A guy like Hollowell has extreme talent but it hasn't worked for him at I4. Hanner is blessed with amazing gifts. Some of their freshmen are incredible.. Crean and staff just haven't been able to put it together with Sheehey, Yogi and gang.

You're right, IU wasn't expected to lose to NW yesterday.  They weren't expected to beat Wisconsin a few nights earlier.  Young teams do those things.

This thread went in many directions Jay Bee, you're focusing on one part, for some reason not wanting to point out that fact.  I can only imagine what the reasons were for starting the thread in the first place...I can only imagine.


I would again point you to 1988-89 and 1989-90....

[keefe]

You're right, IU wasn't expected to lose to NW yesterday.  They weren't expected to beat Wisconsin a few nights earlier.  Young teams do those things.

This thread went in many directions Jay Bee, you're focusing on one part, for some reason not wanting to point out that fact.  I can only imagine what the reasons were for starting the thread in the first place...I can only imagine.


I would again point you to 1988-89 and 1989-90....

Just one reason, Jams - to offer perspective to a forlorn Warrior faithful. I have started threads on UNC losing as well. At the end of the day, this is about a bunch of kids transitioning from one level to the next.

I have seen guys kill it in the T-6 only to wash out in T-38's. And not every T-38 stud gets through the F-16 syllabus. And guys who were on the verge of getting sh1tcanned from Falcons ended up becoming Sh1t Hot combat fighter pilots.

All of these guys were studs in high school. Not all of them pan out. And some freshman wunderkinds end up flaming out as juniors. Being a college basketball coach is bloody f ucking difficult. This year's Marquette team is struggling. So is Old Roy's. And Tanned Tommy's.

This is a lot like golf. We should admire the great shots and accept that we are slicing and hooking a lot lately. I just wish Buzz would holster that Taylor Made and try using a Big Bertha for a few holes to see if he hits that better. Can't hurt.

[4everwarriors]

Might haveta go to Ping or Titleist too.

[keefe]

Might haveta go to Ping or Titleist too.

I've always played Ping Irons and Callaway Woods. I was given an odd Mizuno mallet putter by a colleague in Tokyo which I grew to love. I know that loyalty to golf clubs and aircraft is strong as friggin' titanium but circumstances sometimes dictate making a change.

Buzz needs to sheath that Taylor Made and try a Callaway. Or a Titleist. Or a Ping. Hell, I would love to see him head down to the pro shop and try a rental club. Anything because that Taylor Made ain't hittin' 'em straight or long.

[4everwarriors]

Bet Scotty Cameron could fix his putter, doe.

[Lennys Tap]

Indiana was a 2 point underdog at home to UW, so they were "supposed to lose" maybe 53-55% of the time. They were supposed to beat Northwestern at home just by just showing up. Losing to them at home would be like us losing to DePaul at home in the last several years -basically unthinkable. Comparing an upset as a home 2 point dog with losing to NU at home is ridiculous.

[keefe]

Bet Scotty Cameron could fix his putter, doe.

I know guys who swear by his putters. My dad gave me a wood shafted Ping Green Slayer putter when I graduated from UPT that I loved. Damn baggage handlers broke the thing on a flight back from the Philippines so a colleague in Tokyo gifted me the Mizuno. I hated it at first but eventually got used to it. One of my sons has already laid claim to it when I head off to the Great Clubhouse.

The only Titleist club I play is a 60 degree Vokey wedge. Damned fine weapon.  

[keefe]

Indiana was a 2 point underdog at home to UW, so they were "supposed to lose" maybe 53-55% of the time. They were supposed to beat Northwestern at home just by just showing up. Losing to them at home would be like us losing to DePaul at home in the last several years -basically unthinkable. Comparing an upset as a home 2 point dog with losing to NU at home is ridiculous.

Lenny

The 2 points against Wisconsin is the Las Vegas Tanned Tommy Game Coaching Handicap so the game was really a Pick.

[MU82]

MU82....they aren't having issues recruiting folks.  They have a ton of talent coming in next year...their issue next year will be size if Vonleh leaves for the pros, which he likely will.  They will be loaded at guard and wing players, however. 

Thanks for giving my legitimate questions a legitimate answer.

I guess time will tell if the Indiana coach can recruit and coach well enough to build sustained excellence, something he didn't think he could accomplish at his previous outpost.

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny

The 2 points against Wisconsin is the Las Vegas Tanned Tommy Game Coaching Handicap so the game was really a Pick.

The way Bo has owned Crean over the years (16-4) two points probably isn't enough. Bo's a stubborn SOB though and it cost him against IU. The Hoosiers don't shoot very well but Yogi is quick off the bounce. Pack it in and make them beat you with jump shots.

[River rat]

Was at a birthday party Saturday night and a buddy of mine came up to me.  Apparently he was at the iu/nw game.  He has zero patience left for Crean.  He is an iu grad and said yhe iu crowd has booed crean on a number of occasions this year and stated he needs to rectuit even better then has because he is a terrible coach.  He refers to Crean as "Clappy the clown"

[keefe]

 Pack it in and make them beat you with jump shots.

Sure this wasn't the scouting report on MU?

[augoman]

I don't know Keefe, the "subpar" wildcats just took Purdue in a double overtime, with NU's starting point still on the bench.

[tower912]

My wife, the Hoosier fan, describe the Northwestern game as looking like my daughter's 5th grade girls team I coached.   When I brought up that at least last night's game against Sparty didn't look that bad (better than a 5th grade girls team), she got all huffy and said that SHE can use that reference, but I don't need to bring it up anymore.  It's either a Hoosier thing or a wife thing. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't know Keefe, the "subpar" wildcats just took Purdue in a double overtime, with NU's starting point still on the bench.

They also beat Illinois the other day.  They are playing better....new coach, new system, takes some time.

UNC now 1-5 in the ACC.