Marquette University adopts vision to raise its profile

[Atticus]

If we want to raise our profile, we need $$$$$$. Plain and simple.

I went to USC for grad school. At the time, they announced the largest fundraising campaign in US history with a goal of $5 BILLION (apparently Harvard announced a larger campaign since then). Keeping in mind that MU has never had a private donation exceed $51M, USC has received individual donations of $175M (George Lucas), $110M (an oil/gas alum), and $200M (steel industry alum).  

USC has two top colleges - their business school and their communications school. Both colleges produce wealthy alums. Annenberg is their niche...and they dominate along with about 4 other j-schools around the country. What is our niche? We need one...and it cant be dentistry. Dentists make a nice living and when they are finally able to pay off their students loans, they might donate from time to time.

Do we have uber-wealthy alumni? No. Do we have a bunch of individuals that can write 9 figure checks? No. We need money, though. I think we need to create a new niche. The university cant sell the old-fashioned liberal arts degree. We need a college that is nationally recognized and places alums in an industry that is sustainable and pays well (like Annenberg). We need a college that high school seniors from around the country are drawn to. Instead of sprinkling money around and making broad university improvements, I wish there would be more of a focus on specific degree programs within a college.

[GGGG]

Which comes first, academic reputation or endowment size? 

I think all you that cite endowment size as a constraint are confusing cause and effect.

Endowment clearly comes first.  Without a strong endowment you can't attract the students and faculty needed to move up the rankings. 

Growing the endowment take vision and donors to buy into that vision.  But its going to be real hard to grow your academic reputation without additional resources.

[Gato78]

Marquette's recruiting is pathetic. 2 nephews who were top of their class at DelaSalle in Chicago were willing and received almost no information from the MU person responsible. They went elsewhere. A friends son in south suburbs was down to Kansas and MU. His dad had big bucks so the Kansas folks were aggressive. MU's recruiters were lacking.

[keefe]

How about these formerly second tier schools from 25 to 30 years ago (current USN ranking)?  

St. Louis - Wash U (#14)
Houston - Rice #17)
Atlanta - Emory (#20)
Pittsburgh - Carnegie Mellon (#23)
New Orleans - Tulane (#51)

I'm not certain what you mean by second tier but these five schools have long been regarded as first rank for generations. They have not been transformed in the past 25 years...

[augoman]

Hmmmm, I joined conversation late (been traveling) but med school long gone and gone for good.  My dad was professor of surgery at the Marquette medical school so it has always been close to my heart.  MU lost it when asking the state to kick in some funds.  The usual outcry from the Milwaukee Journal and a few local representatives about separation of church and state turned into the state dangling a pile of cash in front of the school and MU caved.

[Skatastrophy]

I heard a suggestion once (from a scoop member, but I'll let him out himself), that Marquette create a small fund to loan money to new-ish grads looking to buy some of the (previously beautiful) houses around campus.

I'm sure there are a million reasons it's a bad idea, but I love it. Cleans up the neighborhood, brings what I'd expect to be stable, working adults with some disposable income and builds a community.

Won't necessarily raise the profile of the school, but certainly would take the "security" aspect down a notch.

This was me.  I'll come out of the closet.

I think adding a buffer between campus and the near north side would be a boon for Marquette.  I'd be willing to spend my money on a house in that area if I knew that other like-minded alumni were doing the same thing in the coming years.  I just don't have a great idea how to kick something like that off...

One of my many excellent ideas, just ask me!

[Marqevans]

Another84:

I contacted my friend about the whole scholarship issue and targeting the highest level students and this is in summary what she said.

It is an incredibly competitive marketplace for the highest level students.  They can go pretty much anywhere they want and go there for free.  If schools have enough money, they can be very strong in that pool, but for those schools that don't have those resources, concentrating too much on those students can be harmful to their overall academic profile if you don't have the $$ to be competitive for the next level of student.

She doesn't work with Marquette, but she said that it sounds like they have aimed to be competitive in the 90th percentile - where there are a lot more students so the competition isn't as tough.  They don't require as much money to lure them to campus, so it leaves a lot left over for 80th percentile...70th percentile students.  And your overall academic profile is a snapshot of all of your students not just those at the top.

Now she also said that if MU wants to go higher than 83 in USN&WR, they are going to have to increase resources to attract the highest level students while also maintaining the resources to get those 90th, 80th and 70th percentile kids that they have gotten previously.  That would require A SIZABLE increase in their endowment.

So maybe that is where they are heading.

Schools like Notre Dame, Boston College, Georgetown etc. where there is a high number of applications per  opening do not give full ride merit money unless there is financial need.

[Tugg Speedman]

Schools like Notre Dame, Boston College, Georgetown etc. where there is a high number of applications per  opening do not give full ride merit money unless there is financial need.

Yes but these schools are VERY liberal with needs based financial aid.  So many of these schools are the cheapest in the country.

For instance at Harvard, families making less than 75,000 do not have to pay.  Between 75,000 and 150,000 the average cost of tuition is just 12,000.  Over 60% get a reduced tuition rate.  The other Ives and many of the very selective colleges are the same.

This is where a huge endowment is a big advantage.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Ah, the Wisconsin inferiority complex comes out.  The Midwest is second tier (especially Milwaukee) and it's folly to try and be anything but that.  So just recruit Hispanic kids from Chicago and be done with it!

How about these formerly second tier schools from 25 to 30 years ago (current USN ranking)?  Why can't MU aspire to join this group in (or near) the the top 50?  

Fact: The largest demographic group of college aged kids will be Hispanic in a few years.  They are very Catholic, many of their parents will not have attended college, and yes, many are from Chicago.  And yes, Chicago/Illinois now represents a majority, for the first time, of MU's enrollment as it is.  And no, Milwaukee doesn't have the medical research campuses like Boston, nor is it the seat of power like DC. It is not a banking center.  It is a reality, not an inferiority complex.

Yes, MU can raise their standards.  They will be competing with many endowed schools for fewer students. Is MU willing to shrink enrollment to be like many of the speciality schools you mentioned?  I say no, which makes the whole vision commercially flawed.  MU is just fine in that 75 range.  Why?  Because that segment is bigger and more achievable and can be sustained for the long-term viable health of the university and is consistent with what Marquette has always been about.  Wild had it right, Pilarz doesn't.

[keefe]

I think adding a buffer between campus and the near north side would be a boon for Marquette. One of my many excellent ideas, just ask me!

This is a terrible idea. The buffer between the university and the natives was the student housing between Wells and State Street. I know Lenny and I both cut our teeth on life drinking in those State Street bars. I remember my first time in Fallujah...young LT asked if I was concerned. I replied, "Hell no. I used to drink at Lenny's!"

[keefe]

For instance at Harvard, families making less than 75,000 do not have to pay.  Between 75,000 and 150,000 the average cost of tuition is just 12,000.  Over 60% get a reduced tuition rate.  The other Ives and many of the very selective colleges are the same.

Is that right...

[Tugg Speedman]

Is that right...

Yes, the highly selective schools came to a realization that qualified kids from lesser means families were not applying. So they are incentivizing them.

Essentially Harvard's tuition is "pay what you can."  From 40% that is the list price if 41k.  As I said before the other 60% pay less.

I'll bet the average tuition paid at Havard is less than MU.

Added later ...

This is what a large endowment allows you to do (more so than research) ...

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2013/03/college-admits-2029-5-8-percent-of-applicants/

“Unprecedented levels of financial aid played a major role in producing a record applicant pool and an admitted group that promises to be one of the best in Harvard’s history,” said William R. Fitzsimmons, dean of admissions and financial aid. “The leadership of President Drew Faust, Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences Michael Smith, and Dean of the College Evelynn Hammonds in providing a record $182 million in need-based financial aid affirms Harvard’s longstanding commitment to enroll the nation’s and the world’s best students regardless of economic background.”

“We expect that nearly 60 percent of the students admitted to the Class of 2017 will need financial assistance in order to attend,” said Sarah C. Donahue, director of financial aid.  “Their families will pay an average of only $12,000 per year. About 20 percent of Harvard families, those with normal assets making $65,000 or less annually, will pay nothing at all.”  As always, students contribute to the cost of their education through term-time and summer work.

[muwarrior69]

Yes, the highly selective schools came to a realization that qualified kids from lesser means families were not applying. So they are incentivizing them.

Essentially Harvard's tuition is "pay what you can."  From 40% that is the list price if 41k.  As I said before the other 60% pay less.

I'll bet the average tuition paid at Havard is less than MU.

Added later ...

This is what a large endowment allows you to do (more so than research) ...

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2013/03/college-admits-2029-5-8-percent-of-applicants/

“Unprecedented levels of financial aid played a major role in producing a record applicant pool and an admitted group that promises to be one of the best in Harvard’s history,” said William R. Fitzsimmons, dean of admissions and financial aid. “The leadership of President Drew Faust, Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences Michael Smith, and Dean of the College Evelynn Hammonds in providing a record $182 million in need-based financial aid affirms Harvard’s longstanding commitment to enroll the nation’s and the world’s best students regardless of economic background.”

“We expect that nearly 60 percent of the students admitted to the Class of 2017 will need financial assistance in order to attend,” said Sarah C. Donahue, director of financial aid.  “Their families will pay an average of only $12,000 per year. About 20 percent of Harvard families, those with normal assets making $65,000 or less annually, will pay nothing at all.”  As always, students contribute to the cost of their education through term-time and summer work.

My parents paid 12,000 for my entire 4 years ('65-'69) and thought that was outrageously high. Tuition is costs are rising faster than just about anything else.

[GGGG]

Fact: The largest demographic group of college aged kids will be Hispanic in a few years.  They are very Catholic, many of their parents will not have attended college, and yes, many are from Chicago.  And yes, Chicago/Illinois now represents a majority, for the first time, of MU's enrollment as it is.  And no, Milwaukee doesn't have the medical research campuses like Boston, nor is it the seat of power like DC. It is not a banking center.  It is a reality, not an inferiority complex.

Yes, MU can raise their standards.  They will be competing with many endowed schools for fewer students. Is MU willing to shrink enrollment to be like many of the speciality schools you mentioned?  I say no, which makes the whole vision commercially flawed.  MU is just fine in that 75 range.  Why?  Because that segment is bigger and more achievable and can be sustained for the long-term viable health of the university and is consistent with what Marquette has always been about.  Wild had it right, Pilarz doesn't.

One of the other issues....

If you turn the university into something that isn't recognizable to those who will be counted on to give the $$$ to build the endowment, you run the risk of alienating them. 

[Tugg Speedman]

One of the other issues....

If you turn the university into something that isn't recognizable to those who will be counted on to give the $$$ to build the endowment, you run the risk of alienating them. 

The mission approved was to raise the profile (including its ranking) and the endowment size. Within this goal, what are you afraid they will do that will alienate donors?  Remember the largest donors are the BOT and they approved this.

[GGGG]

When schools become substantially different than the institutions that their alumni remember them, it can oftentimes alienate them.   For instance, at a school I worked for prior to this one, our wealthiest alumnus wouldn't give much to us because he stated "that I wouldn't even be able to get into the school now."  It wasn't the school that took the chance on him...gave him the education that helped him to succeed...and took him places he never thought he would go.

And the BOT may or may not be the top donors to the school.  They may be a slice of those donors, but they are not all of them.

[Tugg Speedman]

When schools become substantially different than the institutions that their alumni remember them, it can oftentimes alienate them.   For instance, at a school I worked for prior to this one, our wealthiest alumnus wouldn't give much to us because he stated "that I wouldn't even be able to get into the school now."  It wasn't the school that took the chance on him...gave him the education that helped him to succeed...and took him places he never thought he would go.

And the BOT may or may not be the top donors to the school.  They may be a slice of those donors, but they are not all of them.

So, MU should not try to become a better school because some may not like it?  And you proof is one cement head that had no vision when it came to college giving?


As an aside ... whether this is an outright goal or not, academic standards are going up in all schools that in the top 100 of USN rankings.  You can thank the common app for the explosion of applications.

[Marqevans]

Yes but these schools are VERY liberal with needs based financial aid.  So many of these schools are the cheapest in the country.

For instance at Harvard, families making less than 75,000 do not have to pay.  Between 75,000 and 150,000 the average cost of tuition is just 12,000.  Over 60% get a reduced tuition rate.  The other Ives and many of the very selective colleges are the same.

This is where a huge endowment is a big advantage.

A small group of schools were risking non-profit status because they were not paying out enough of their endowments on an annual basis.  This is a very elite group. Just being a national merit finalist won't get you into these schools. You need a resume of accomplishments.   As far as most top 50 schools they don't have check the box and you can get $14,000 off based on merit only.  That being said you have schools like the University of Alabama if you score higher than 32 on your ACT they give you a full ride regardless of financial status.

[dgies9156]

 For instance, at a school I worked for prior to this one, our wealthiest alumnus wouldn't give much to us because he stated "that I wouldn't even be able to get into the school now."  It wasn't the school that took the chance on him...gave him the education that helped him to succeed...and took him places he never thought he would go.

Nailed it!!!!!

While I am pretty confident I could get into Marquette today, the question is could I get out of it. That means the ability to pay for it. Four years of Marquette when I was there was about $21,000, all-in. My understanding is that today it's somewhere between $150,000 and $200,000. Inflation between the mid-1970s and now should have it at about $70,000 or so.

My parents had five children in five years (and a sixth later). They paid for our tuition, mostly by saving and because Dad was head of a consulting firm. Not sure they could shell out $1.0 million for five children, be able to retire and take care of themselves in today's world. What this effectively means is that Marquette is for the very rich, whose parents can write the check, the very gifted, who somehow can find merit scholarship money, or the very poor, who can rely on the government and foundations.

The key word in all of this is "very." At Marquette's prices, there's no way many of the middle class can go there. I still love the place and give decent sums annually, but the current trends at Marquette are scary and are angering many of us who support the university. To go a step further, Marquette is proud of it having a large number of "first time" college students. That's because they've adopted the same third party payer model killing health care and it's the first time college student that's most likely to be part of the third party payer system.

[Marqevans]

When I was at Marquette in the 70's I could almost cover my tuition from what I made caddying during the summer.  Today it would take almost all of the after tax income of a family making $100,000. When you consider federal, state, FICA, and property taxes there would be nothing left!

[Tugg Speedman]

A small group of schools were risking non-profit status because they were not paying out enough of their endowments on an annual basis.  This is a very elite group. Just being a national merit finalist won't get you into these schools. You need a resume of accomplishments.   As far as most top 50 schools they don't have check the box and you can get $14,000 off based on merit only.  That being said you have schools like the University of Alabama if you score higher than 32 on your ACT they give you a full ride regardless of financial status.

The University of Georgia does something similar ... in state kids that average a B in HS paid $1,000/year.  Average an A in HS and pay no tuition at Georgia. (Incidentally this has led to horrible grade inflation in Georgia public HS.  The daughter of a friend in Atlanta is in a public HS.  She is a senior averaging 87 on a 100 scale.  That roughly translates to a B+ average on a 4.0 scale.  Her class ranking puts her in the LOWER THIRD!)

Back to Harvard

20% pay zero
40% pay $12k
40% pay 41k (list price)
Average tuition this year = $21,000/year.

This is how the top schools keep the top kids.  Yes everyone wants to go to Harvard but not everyone can afford it.  So to prevent them from becoming a school for only elitists, the average tuition paid is a lot less than the list price.  You can do that when you have a $31 billion endowment like Harvard.

What can MU immediately do?  Put in place a program to recruit/woo top applications.  Give them money to attend, lower the average tuition paid.  This will have an immediate effect of raising the average test scores/GPA and overall quality of incoming kids.  This will raise their USN ranking and give the school a better academic reputation.  They can do this now. (This is what USC does as I explained above)

Schools like MU currently lose two ways, they have lesser reputation than to 50 USN schools and many of those schools are effectively cheaper than MU.  

[1990Warrior]

I think we need to completely ignore the US News and World report list.  For the colleges between us and fifty, which is probably a theoretical maximum, there is absolutely no way to make comparisons.  How do you compare Marquette to Alabama or Florida???  Why would you even think about trying to compare us to Rutgers, PSU, tOSU, or UConn????  I am a NJ native and can tell you that I would never trade an undergrad education at MU for Rutgers.  PSU is great for Frats and Tailgaiting, but I am glad I went to MU.

What levers are you going to pull to make us more attractive than these schools?

[GGGG]

So, MU should not try to become a better school because some may not like it?  And you proof is one cement head that had no vision when it came to college giving?

"Cement head?"  The guy had every right to donate where he wanted to and he didn't buy into the vision.  Instead he donated seven figures to the local community foundation to support college scholarships for first-generation students with extreme financial need.  Is that a bad thing?  That is a really arrogant statement to make.

And also I think a lot of people here are assuming that increasing the schools academic profile is automatically a good thing.  It may or may not be.  Schools have missions and their goal should be to to excel within that mission.  Whether or not it is to be a top national university, or a top regional school, or a school of access to underserved populations, there is nothing right or wrong...or better or worse...about any of those.  So honestly I really don't care all that much if MU increases its academic profile, but I think it would be a shame if it changed its mission significantly in order to do so.

[Tugg Speedman]

I think we need to completely ignore the US News and World report list.  For the colleges between us and fifty, which is probably a theoretical maximum, there is absolutely no way to make comparisons.  How do you compare Marquette to Alabama or Florida???  Why would you even think about trying to compare us to Rutgers, PSU, tOSU, or UConn????  I am a NJ native and can tell you that I would never trade an undergrad education at MU for Rutgers.  PSU is great for Frats and Tailgaiting, but I am glad I went to MU.

What levers are you going to pull to make us more attractive than these schools?

Raising the USN ranking is a stated goal of this vision.

USN ranking are like BCS football rankings.  They are flawed, biased and inaccurate.  But they matter, and they matter a lot.  That is the world we live in.

[GGGG]

Raising the USN ranking is a stated goal of this vision.

USN ranking are like BCS football rankings.  They are flawed, biased and inaccurate.  But they matter, and they matter a lot.  That is the world we live in.

Why do you think they "matter a lot?"