MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Sir Lawrence on May 02, 2013, 11:36:55 AM
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From this morning's Milwaukee J/S (BOT had a meeting yesterday):
http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/marquette-university-adopts-vision-to-raise-its-profile-7t9ptd0-205675301.html
Money quote:
The plan also calls for Marquette to leverage its brand through its nationally ranked men's basketball team and other athletic programs now part of the new Big East Conference.
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Looks like they aren't gonna SLU us...
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Looks like they aren't gonna SLU us...
Beat me to it...well done.
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I blame Larry Williams.
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Buy back the Medical School would be a good start.
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Buy back the Medical School would be a good start.
Would love to see it....I put it in the dumb and dumber line of 1 in a million, but would love to see Marquette once again tied directly to the MCOW with the name on the institution. My father-in-law, a MU medical school graduate, is likely still spinning in his grave over that one.
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From a comment in the article, here is the PDF'd PowerPoint of the Strategic Plan. Basically the article with cliché pictures and pretty colors, but maybe worth a look.
http://www.marquette.edu/president/documents/strategic-plan-ppt.pdf
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Now lets see the real commitment on all fronts. I worry about college administrators who do not have adult supervision.
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So wait, are you suggesting Internet message board rumors might not always be accurate?
This changes everything.
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Would love to see it....I put it in the dumb and dumber line of 1 in a million, but would love to see Marquette once again tied directly to the MCOW with the name on the institution. My father-in-law, a MU medical school graduate, is likely still spinning in his grave over that one.
What would it take to just get our name back on it, without any major structural changes, leaving the medical campus where it is?
A few million? Seems like a worthwhile investment to have the prestige of a medical school associated with the university.
Could be a similar arrangement that St. Nortbert has...http://www.snc.edu/communications/enews/1212/medicalcollege.html
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This thing doesn't say much at all; could have just slapped a 2013 date on a 1993 strategic plan; which is weird given the explosion of online educational institutions.
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Would love to see it....I put it in the dumb and dumber line of 1 in a million, but would love to see Marquette once again tied directly to the MCOW with the name on the institution. My father-in-law, a MU medical school graduate, is likely still spinning in his grave over that one.
In my various roles of involvement with the University over the last few years, I have attended several meetings that included University Administration where long-term goals were discussed and suggestions sought. I have heard dozens of different ideas, but bringing back the medical school was never brought up by anyone. Not going to happen. It's not even on the radar.
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Why would MCOW want to partner with MU?
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In my various roles of involvement with the University over the last few years, I have attended several meetings that included University Administration where long-term goals were discussed and suggestions sought. I have heard dozens of different ideas, but bringing back the medical school was never brought up by anyone. Not going to happen. It's not even on the radar.
So I can take 1 in a million to 1 in a billion? ;)
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This is probably the reason they cancelled the Freshman Frontier Program, which I'm still pissed about...long live FFP
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Long FFP is right. Two siblings, my son and I are all proud members of FFP.
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To be honest, dropping the medical school probably helped both institutions.
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Long FFP is right. Two siblings, my son and I are all proud members of FFP.
They didn't drop it...aren't they just changing some of the admittance requirements?
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Totally random, but every time I drive downtown I wish MU could've worked with the city to make the Marquette Interchange more Marquette-ish. I know there would be some backlash of the city help a private institution but I thought some of the ramps with the Marquette logo and name on the blue and goldish paint would've added some culture to the city, looked cool, and promoted the university. Could have done the same thing to 43 by UWM to balance it out.
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Terror
I believe the FFP is no longer the program held close to my heart.
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To be honest, dropping the medical school probably helped both institutions.
A number of MU medical graduates don't agree, but it isn't changing so not worth getting excited about it. The most prestigious schools in the country often have a medical school attached to them (not all, but most)....it's a shame we had one and through a number of issues had to let it go.
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Terror
I believe the FFP is no longer the program held close to my heart.
I hear ya....
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I'm pleased to see that MU at least has a vision. Losing the 15th St. Medical School and nearly the Dental School were bone head maneuvers. Now, if they had any sense at all, Warriors returns, the endowment and US News rankings climb, and we piss with the big boys.
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I'm pleased to see that MU at least has a vision. Losing the 15th St. Medical School and nearly the Dental School were bone head maneuvers. Now, if they had any sense at all, Warriors returns, the endowment and US News rankings climb, and we piss with the big boys.
Plus infinity. I remember how close we were to losing the dental school. Medical school...ugh. A group of MU medical graduates moved out west to California to start their practice out here and setup clinics and a hospital. My father in law was the chief of medicine at one of these hospitals. He and his fellow MU med school grads started some wonderful services out here with the common tie of Marquette. Shame that it went away.
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Would love to see it....I put it in the dumb and dumber line of 1 in a million, but would love to see Marquette once again tied directly to the MCOW with the name on the institution. My father-in-law, a MU medical school graduate, is likely still spinning in his grave over that one.
My dad too. He graduated from MU Medicine in 1959. I remember as a kid overhearing him receiving a call from MCW asking for alumni donations. He reminded them that he did not attend the Medical College of Wisconsin...but that Marquette could certainly ask him for money if they ever had the good sense to restore the proper name to the school.
Plenty of other private schools figured out ways to keep their medical schools, so it's pretty disappointing that MU couldn't do the same.
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Why would MCOW want to partner with MU?
$$$
We give them money, we get prestige. It costs them nothing. They change the name (Marquette University - Medical College of Wisconsin or Medical College of Wisconsin at Marquette University, etc. etc.) Why wouldn't they want to?
I'm sure there'd be some modest integrations that would have to happen, but professional schools are largely autonomous, look at MU's dental and law school. They are completely separate silos from the rest of the university.
Honestly I think this would be easy and they should do it now before all of the rich old MU Medicine alumni die off, while they still have a fundraising base.
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$$$
We give them money, we get prestige. It costs them nothing. Why wouldn't they want to?
Because both institutions are doing just fine on their own.
Interesting in reading the history of MCW, than the Medical College was always a separate legal institution, but was affiliated with the University. Is that the case with the Dental School?
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Victor
My wife attended MCOW and from what I know they doing quite well as a stand alone facility. Not sure if the money MU could provide would be enough reason to re-brand themselves. IMO I think MU hooking up with MCOW is a pipe dream. Relationships are two way street and not sure adding MU name and some dough is needed by MCOW.
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Off the medical school topic. Would you all rather see MU become more connected with the downtown area (essentially Wisconsin ave becoming busy again) or would you rather see MU and new businesses expand west connecting the school to the rave and ambassador hotel
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Totally random, but every time I drive downtown I wish MU could've worked with the city to make the Marquette Interchange more Marquette-ish. I know there would be some backlash of the city help a private institution but I thought some of the ramps with the Marquette logo and name on the blue and goldish paint would've added some culture to the city, looked cool, and promoted the university. Could have done the same thing to 43 by UWM to balance it out.
The structural steel is blue, for Marquette.
The concrete was stained cream, which was close enough to yellow, for Marquette and to match the entire N-S Freeway corridor color scheme.
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It's conceivable the med school could return. As a point of contrast, 25+ years ago, local school Quinnipiac University was a tiny school and they began a long range plan to make the school known period and simultaneously expand its educational offerings, sports & stature. In 1995, they added a law school which they bought from the University of Bridgeport (who was in a bad financial mess at the time) and beginning this September their Med School starts from scratch. (They bought the former headquarters of BlueCross/BlueShield and converted the building.) They've made their polling institute nationally known. In 2007, they spent $52mil to build an on-campus multi-purpose building like to the AL that's home to their basketball & hockey teams. Lastly, they hope to build on the school's success as this year's NCAA hockey runner-up (to almost cross-town rival Yale.) If a place like QU can do this tehn MU returning the Med School seems possible.
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Victor
My wife attended MCOW and from what I know they doing quite well as a stand alone facility. Not sure if the money MU could provide would be enough reason to re-brand themselves. IMO I think MU hooking up with MCOW is a pipe dream. Relationships are two way street and not sure adding MU name and some dough is needed by MCOW.
One thing I would like to see is for MU to partner up with MCOW to create the medical equivalent of their current Dental Scholar program. If you are accepted as an incoming freshman into the Dental Scholar program, you basically get automatically accepted into Marquette Dental School as long as you meet certain academic criteria during your undergrad years. SLU has a program like this, and I am sure it has attracted some very high-quality students.
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Off the medical school topic. Would you all rather see MU become more connected with the downtown area (essentially Wisconsin ave becoming busy again) or would you rather see MU and new businesses expand west connecting the school to the rave and ambassador hotel
I'd say expand towards downtown since it's downtown.
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It's conceivable the med school could return. As a point of contrast, 25+ years ago, local school Quinnipiac University was a tiny school and they began a long range plan to make the school known period and simultaneously expand its educational offerings, sports & stature. In 1995, they added a law school which they bought from the University of Bridgeport (who was in a bad financial mess at the time) and beginning this September their Med School starts from scratch. (They bought the former headquarters of BlueCross/BlueShield and converted the building.) They've made their polling institute nationally known. In 2007, they spent $52mil to build an on-campus multi-purpose building like to the AL that's home to their basketball & hockey teams. Lastly, they hope to build on the school's success as this year's NCAA hockey runner-up (to almost cross-town rival Yale.) If a place like QU can do this tehn MU returning the Med School seems possible.
Sounds like the Belmont of the East!
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Because both institutions are doing just fine on their own.
Interesting in reading the history of MCW, than the Medical College was always a separate legal institution, but was affiliated with the University. Is that the case with the Dental School?
Nope
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Off the medical school topic. Would you all rather see MU become more connected with the downtown area (essentially Wisconsin ave becoming busy again) or would you rather see MU and new businesses expand west connecting the school to the rave and ambassador hotel
Marquette missed the boat twice on relocating. Coulda procured the Mount Mary site in the 50's. Later on, Concordia left their State St. digs to expand and elevate on Lake Michigan in The Quon.
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Because both institutions are doing just fine on their own.
Interesting in reading the history of MCW, than the Medical College was always a separate legal institution, but was affiliated with the University. Is that the case with the Dental School?
Pretty sure the dental portion is what remains of the Milwaukee Medical College when MU absorbed that in its earliest days but I do know students' can receive tuition subsidies from the state.
For Consideration: While the MWC is out in tosa, there is a Hospital right on campus that might suffice. Its equally a pipe dream as any other suggestions, but at least its on campus
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I'd say expand towards downtown since it's downtown.
You are not going to be able to go much further towards Downtown without running into property that would be difficult, if not impossible, for the University to purchase. The Wisconsin Club, The Milwaukee Public Library, the Milwaukee County Complex, St. James Episcopal Church, etc. It's pretty clear that the aim is to keep the school in a contiguous area, and you won't be able to expand to the east with that in mind.
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One thing I would like to see is for MU to partner up with MCOW to create the medical equivalent of their current Dental Scholar program. If you are accepted as an incoming freshman into the Dental Scholar program, you basically get automatically accepted into Marquette Dental School as long as you meet certain academic criteria during your undergrad years. SLU has a program like this, and I am sure it has attracted some very high-quality students.
MCOW had that very same program years ago with UWM. It was called Target MD. Since gone the way of the buffalo. There are several issues with these types of programs. Doubtful that MCOW has any interest, what so ever, in restorin' it.
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Marquette missed the boat twice on relocating. Coulda procured the Mount Mary site in the 50's. Later on, Concordia left their State St. digs to expand and elevate on Lake Michigan in The Quon.
I think Marquette's location is just fine. I mean, why would you want it out in Mequon? It was one thing for a small, liberal arts school that was located in a crappier neighborhood even further west of Marquette to move up there, but Marquette is an urban school....right next to downtown.
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"A strategic plan approved by the board of trustees calls for Marquette to raise its U.S. News & World Report ranking, as well as its profile for research and community involvement. The plan also calls for Marquette to leverage its brand through its nationally ranked men's basketball team and other athletic programs now part of the new Big East Conference."
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6WRcJM7SGZY/SaBKYSIKxlI/AAAAAAAABVY/3ET1ueTJIy4/s400/Coffee+Mug+-+Far+Side+First+Pants+Then+Your+Shoes.jpg)
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I think Marquette's location is just fine. I mean, why would you want it out in Mequon? It was one thing for a small, liberal arts school that was located in a crappier neighborhood even further west of Marquette to move up there, but Marquette is an urban school....right next to downtown.
It is certainly part of our identity. Though I do wonder how many students over the years we have lost because daddy didn't think MU was in a safe enough environment for his daughter. Heck, even some of the guys I went to school with from up state Wisconsin had never been to Milwaukee before and they were more than a bit overwhelmed by the "big city" (that always made me chuckle).
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It is certainly part of our identity. Though I do wonder how many students over the years we have lost because daddy didn't think MU was in a safe enough environment for his daughter. Heck, even some of the guys I went to school with from up state Wisconsin had never been to Milwaukee before and they were more than a bit overwhelmed by the "big city" (that always made me chuckle).
I understand that. Maybe if it were out by Mount Mary it would be better. Although I am not sure sticking it in a residential part of Tosa is all that good either. But I just don't think they missed the boat by not moving to Mequon.
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Marquette missed the boat twice on relocating. Coulda procured the Mount Mary site in the 50's. Later on, Concordia left their State St. digs to expand and elevate on Lake Michigan in The Quon.
I'm glad this never happened, as I never would have ended up at Marquette.
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It is certainly part of our identity. Though I do wonder how many students over the years we have lost because daddy didn't think MU was in a safe enough environment for his daughter. Heck, even some of the guys I went to school with from up state Wisconsin had never been to Milwaukee before and they were more than a bit overwhelmed by the "big city" (that always made me chuckle).
Agree, it's a significant part of our identity. I think for every student that passed up on MU due to safety concerns several more have chosen it due to being within walking or a very short drive to downtown bars and restaurants, the BC, Miller Park, the lake, the beach, the Rave. Put it in a suburban environment and you miss out on all of that and try to make a "college town" with a quarter the size of state schools to support the surrounding "town".
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I'm glad this never happened, as I never would have ended up at Marquette.
Same here.
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Agreed the city feel is what I really liked about the campus. If you want to hang out in a suburban type of atmosphere go to Miami (Oh)
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It is certainly part of our identity. Though I do wonder how many students over the years we have lost because daddy didn't think MU was in a safe enough environment for his daughter. Heck, even some of the guys I went to school with from up state Wisconsin had never been to Milwaukee before and they were more than a bit overwhelmed by the "big city" (that always made me chuckle).
My sister hated the campus in 2000 because it was so near the crappy neighborhoods (ironic as we grew up boarding the west side of Chicago) ended up choosing Dayton.
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To me and my family the city atmosphere adds to the experience. That said, I probably worry more about my kids due to city environment. With daughter attending next year I am sure I will be more on edge than when sons have been there.
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Off the medical school topic. Would you all rather see MU become more connected with the downtown area (essentially Wisconsin ave becoming busy again) or would you rather see MU and new businesses expand west connecting the school to the rave and ambassador hotel
Both.
I'd love for them to strategically move further east, surgically and selectively picking up properties where it makes sense and integrating with downtown. Another high-rise student housing building would be great, I think the Catholic Knights building would be the best but not sure if its available. I'd love to slap an MU logo on the top of it.
On the west side, I'd like to see them be much more aggressive and attempt to totally revitalize the area, at least to 25th street, with student housing, public spaces such as parks, fountains, monuments, etc. That property is cheap and they should go gangbusters with it, much like SLU has done.
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You are not going to be able to go much further towards Downtown without running into property that would be difficult, if not impossible, for the University to purchase. The Wisconsin Club, The Milwaukee Public Library, the Milwaukee County Complex, St. James Episcopal Church, etc. It's pretty clear that the aim is to keep the school in a contiguous area, and you won't be able to expand to the east with that in mind.
meh, they did it with Straz Tower. I'm sure they could keep expanding east one building at a time as long as it wasn't more than two or three blocks from the next closest building.
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A number of MU medical graduates don't agree, but it isn't changing so not worth getting excited about it. The most prestigious schools in the country often have a medical school attached to them (not all, but most)....it's a shame we had one and through a number of issues had to let it go.
I interviewed at MCW and had no idea it use to be a Marquette's medical school, what were the issues?
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I interviewed at MCW and had no idea it use to be a Marquette's medical school, what were the issues?
I believe it was entirely financial. The 1960s were a tough time for MU financially. That's when we dropped football as well. The university was shedding programs that were losing money.
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USC (Southern CA) has a program to raise its profile. It involves a Trustee scholarship program.
If you apply to USC they pick the top applicants and offer it to them, They fly them to LA to interview for a 4 year free ride and some a partial free rides. They keep it a secret as to how many they offer these scholarships but it is thought to be 100 to 300 per class.
This scholarship is annually renewable (so you have to keep top grades to continue getting it) and they expect the kids to participate in recruiting other top kids to USC. The idea is to get the kids that go to Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford etc. to go to USC. The goal is to have hundreds of these kids on campus (from all 4 years) to raise its academic standard, average test score and therefore the academic standing of the school. To say it bluntly, they "buy" top kids to come to USC.
Does MU do anything like this? If not, they should. If they want to increase their academic profile they need top kids to go to MU. So, if they get an application from a kid that looks like they are going to get into Harvard, they should accept them and offer them a free-ride as an enticement.
Thoughts?
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My sister hated the campus in 2000 because it was so near the crappy neighborhoods (ironic as we grew up boarding the west side of Chicago) ended up choosing Dayton.
She complains about the city...then ends up at Dayton??? Wow.
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She complains about the city...then ends up at Dayton??? Wow.
No mention if she was actually admitted. Maybe FFP.
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USC (Southern CA) has a program to raise its profile. It involves a Trustee scholarship program.
If you apply to USC they pick the top applicants and offer it to them, They fly them to LA to interview for a 4 year free ride and some a partial free rides. They keep it a secret as to how many they offer these scholarships but it is thought to be 100 to 300 per class.
This scholarship is annually renewable (so you have to keep top grades to continue getting it) and they expect the kids to participate in recruiting other top kids to USC. The idea is to get the kids that go to Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford etc. to go to USC. The goal is to have hundreds of these kids on campus (from all 4 years) to raise its academic standard, average test score and therefore the academic standing of the school. To say it bluntly, they "buy" top kids to come to USC.
Does MU do anything like this? If not, they should. If they want to increase their academic profile they need top kids to go to MU. So, if they get an application from a kid that looks like they are going to get into Harvard, they should accept them and offer them a free-ride as an enticement.
Thoughts?
Marquette has scholarship programs that offer up to full tuition scholarships. It is very common for private schools to do so.
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Marquette has scholarship programs that offer up to full tuition scholarships. It is very common for private schools to do so.
How does it work? Do you know?
It is needs based or based on academic achievement? Do you have to apply for it separately or does the admission office pick from the applications they receive?
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How does it work? Do you know?
It is needs based or based on academic achievement? Do you have to apply for it separately or does the admission office pick from the applications they receive?
According to the web-site, you can get up to $14,000 per year simply by applying. It looks like the full tuition ones are college specific and applicants are invited to apply.
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There are specific full-rides for a few different things. Some are academic, I know there is a service-oriented one as well.
The one for up to $14,000 everyone is automatically entered into
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No mention if she was actually admitted. Maybe FFP.
She was.
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According to the web-site, you can get up to $14,000 per year simply by applying. It looks like the full tuition ones are college specific and applicants are invited to apply.
There are specific full-rides for a few different things. Some are academic, I know there is a service-oriented one as well.
The one for up to $14,000 everyone is automatically entered into
USC is more proactive. The admission office offers it to you based on your application.
This is what MU needs to do. When the admission department sees an extraordinary application, they need to offer money, personal calls, and other enticements to come to MU. Sending a "congratulation you have been accepted" letter and then inviting them to fill-out more forms and applications is not going to cut it. Just offer them an interview (and pay for their transportation and lodging) and if you like them, put the full court press on them.
If the admission department is not doing this now, then can ask Buzz how it is done.
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She complains about the city...then ends up at Dayton??? Wow.
Actually, the Dayton campus, and its huge student housing area, is quite insulated.
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USC is more proactive. The admission office offers it to you based on your application.
This is what MU needs to do. When the admission department sees an extraordinary application, they need to offer money, personal calls, and other enticements to come to MU. Sending a "congratulation you have been accepted" letter and then inviting them to fill-out more forms and applications is not going to cut it. Just offer them an interview (and pay for their transportation and lodging) and if you like them, put the full court press on them.
If the admission department is not doing this now, then can ask Buzz how it is done.
I'm not an admissions expert by any means, but like with basketball recruiting, if you go all out chasing these guys you have to weigh the costs elsewhere. I mean, you could actually lesson your academic profile if you put all your eggs in one basket and it doesn't pan out.
I actually have a former co-worker that works for a consulting firm that specializes in this kind of stuff. She literally flies around the country to different private schools and helps them set up scholarship programs similar to Marquette's. I'll get in touch with her to see what the pros and cons are.
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USC is more proactive. The admission office offers it to you based on your application.
This is what MU needs to do. When the admission department sees an extraordinary application, they need to offer money, personal calls, and other enticements to come to MU. Sending a "congratulation you have been accepted" letter and then inviting them to fill-out more forms and applications is not going to cut it. Just offer them an interview (and pay for their transportation and lodging) and if you like them, put the full court press on them.
If the admission department is not doing this now, then can ask Buzz how it is done.
MU calls every single accepted student. I know... I am a volunteer and do this. We answer any question the kid or parent might have and strongly encourage them to join the MU family. I called over 100 people over the past couple months.
How do you know how proactive they are or are not being?
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These are the only full tuition scholarships and they are very specific:
FULL-TUITION AWARDS
Burke Scholarships
Diederich Scholarship
Opus Scholars Program
Urban Scholars Program
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Both.
On the west side, I'd like to see them be much more aggressive and attempt to totally revitalize the area, at least to 25th street, with student housing, public spaces such as parks, fountains, monuments, etc. That property is cheap and they should go gangbusters with it, much like SLU has done.
Avenue Commons II?
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Actually, the Dayton campus, and its huge student housing area, is quite insulated.
But you're still in Dayton. You can't hide on campus forever.
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USC is more proactive. The admission office offers it to you based on your application.
This is what MU needs to do. When the admission department sees an extraordinary application, they need to offer money, personal calls, and other enticements to come to MU. Sending a "congratulation you have been accepted" letter and then inviting them to fill-out more forms and applications is not going to cut it. Just offer them an interview (and pay for their transportation and lodging) and if you like them, put the full court press on them.
If the admission department is not doing this now, then can ask Buzz how it is done.
My two kids had great ACT scores were both pretty heavily recruited by other schools - and not just by volunteers, actual staff members. My daughter had a dedicated admissions rep at SLU who called her on a regular basis. My son got the full-court press from Bradley. He even got a phone call from the dean of the college he was interested in begging him to come down for a campus visit. In contrast, Marquette showed little to no special interest in them.
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USC is more proactive. The admission office offers it to you based on your application.
This is what MU needs to do. When the admission department sees an extraordinary application, they need to offer money, personal calls, and other enticements to come to MU. Sending a "congratulation you have been accepted" letter and then inviting them to fill-out more forms and applications is not going to cut it. Just offer them an interview (and pay for their transportation and lodging) and if you like them, put the full court press on them.
If the admission department is not doing this now, then can ask Buzz how it is done.
USC automatically offers all National Merit Finalists a 50% tuition reduction. Many schools entice these students with free tuition, free books, free laptops, etc. Some of the more select universities will offer nothing based on merit. Others like Vanderbilt 5K/yr. or Northwestern 2K/yr.
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My two kids had great ACT scores were both pretty heavily recruited by other schools - and not just by volunteers, actual staff members. My daughter had a dedicated admissions rep at SLU who called her on a regular basis. My son got the full-court press from Bradley. He even got a phone call from the dean of the college he was interested in begging him to come down for a campus visit. In contrast, Marquette showed little to no special interest in them.
Our son who went to Middlebury and daughter to Columbia had both faculty from their intended major and students from those programs calling them. Local alumni were also in touch and actively available. Our kids are double Marquette legacies but never heard sh1t from anyone from MU other than form letters. I really do fault the Admissions Department. They are clueless to the fact that it is a buyer's market and aggressive marketing is essential to being competitive.
Our son who went to Wazzou had Drew Bledsoe take him to dinner at Jak's, a local steakhouse. Bledsoe came by the house and took our kid and a High School teammate who was also being recruited by the Cougs down the mountain for dinner. Not saying that sealed the deal but those two signed with Wazzou.
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Our son who went to Middlebury and daughter to Columbia had both faculty from their intended major and students from those programs calling them. Local alumni were also in touch and actively available. Our kids are double Marquette legacies but never heard sh1t from anyone from MU other than form letters. I really do fault the Admissions Department. They are clueless to the fact that it is a buyer's market and aggressive marketing is essential to being competitive.
Our son who went to Wazzou had Drew Bledsoe take him to dinner at Jak's, a local steakhouse. Bledsoe came by the house and took our kid and a High School teammate who was also being recruited by the Cougs down the mountain for dinner. Not saying that sealed the deal but those two signed with Wazzou.
Signed, as in to play or to attend? I assume play and I assume Bledsoe isn't taking out perspective Bus. Ad majors that are thinking about attending Wazzou. Assuming can be dangerous, however, so that's why I am asking. He's got a pretty good winery out there, by the way. It's not Cali wines, but I enjoyed the Doubleback when I had it.
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Signed, as in to play or to attend? I assume play and I assume Bledsoe isn't taking out perspective Bus. Ad majors that are thinking about attending Wazzou. Assuming can be dangerous, however, so that's why I am asking. He's got a pretty good winery out there, by the way. It's not Cali wines, but I enjoyed the Doubleback when I had it.
Son #2 and 3 teammates from state runner-up team signed with the Cougs. He had offers from USAFA, Vandals, Sun Devils, Grizzlies, among others. They didn't win much as those were dark years in the Palouse but he certainly made life time friends. He's now in Med School at Michigan so obviously his football career ended in Pullman.
I would put Washington wines up against Cal any day. I will say my favorite overall winery is Merryvale and I am partial to the Lodi old vine zins but Washington viticulture has come into its own. The best merlot in the world is now from Walla Walla's Northstar while Novelty Hill's Sangiovese is simply stunning. I would also recommend anything from Desert Wind but their Ruah is legendary.
What would recommend from Bledsoe's winery?
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She complains about the city...then ends up at Dayton??? Wow.
Yeah....There's irony.
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I heard a suggestion once (from a scoop member, but I'll let him out himself), that Marquette create a small fund to loan money to new-ish grads looking to buy some of the (previously beautiful) houses around campus.
I'm sure there are a million reasons it's a bad idea, but I love it. Cleans up the neighborhood, brings what I'd expect to be stable, working adults with some disposable income and builds a community.
Won't necessarily raise the profile of the school, but certainly would take the "security" aspect down a notch.
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Another Public Safety Alert tonight about a robbery of a student on 18th and Wisconsin @ 6:45 pm.
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I heard a suggestion once (from a scoop member, but I'll let him out himself), that Marquette create a small fund to loan money to new-ish grads looking to buy some of the (previously beautiful) houses around campus.
I'm sure there are a million reasons it's a bad idea, but I love it. Cleans up the neighborhood, brings what I'd expect to be stable, working adults with some disposable income and builds a community.
Won't necessarily raise the profile of the school, but certainly would take the "security" aspect down a notch.
or demand the state, city, and mps board do something to fix the mess that is mps and the vast majority of milwaukee voucher/charter schools.
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I missed the part of the strategic vision where MU had a plan to combat the fact that the universe of families able and/or willing to pay private school tuition eventually drops to zero in the long run.
In 19 short years, with the average 5% annual increase, MU's tuition is $101k per year.
Good luck.
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I missed the part of the strategic vision where MU had a plan to combat the fact that the universe of families able and/or willing to pay private school tuition eventually drops to zero in the long run.
In 19 short years, with the average 5% annual increase, MU's tuition is $101k per year.
Good luck.
Yup. The bubble is gonna pop at some point. Tuition has gone up $16,000 since I started ten years ago.
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Yup. The bubble is gonna pop at some point. Tuition has gone up $16,000 since I started ten years ago.
Haven't you heard....the gubmit is running that dollar printing machine on overdrive the last decade...there's money everywhere. Let it rain, let it rain. ::)
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(http://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/college-cost-inflation-us-consumer-price-index_chart.png?w=512&h=278)
This chart pretty much says it all when it comes to the ridiculous tuition inflation. Not that I have an answer other than praying my kids hit the athletic gene lottery.
Here's the link to the article with tons more depressing charts about student debt: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/the-whole-truth-about-student-debt-in-17-charts/275466/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/05/the-whole-truth-about-student-debt-in-17-charts/275466/)
Edited to add link.
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Two things:
First, for the public university I work for, support from the state of Indiana has decreased from about 40% of our budget in 1990, to less than 20% today. The difference has to some from somewhere...and that somewhere is tuition.
Second, for private schools, focus on what kids actually pay and not the list price.
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Yup. The bubble is gonna pop at some point. Tuition has gone up $16,000 since I started ten years ago.
MUfan12, what are the 2003 and 2013 #'s?
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Two things:
First, for the public university I work for, support from the state of Indiana has decreased from about 40% of our budget in 1990, to less than 20% today. The difference has to some from somewhere...and that somewhere is tuition.
Second, for private schools, focus on what kids actually pay and not the list price.
I love how public university types whine and cry about cuts to their funding and then in the next breath talk about how there really isn't that much taxpayer funding going to public schools, anyway. Something I have seen even you try to claim on this board with regard to the UW system.
Which is it? Is taxpayer funding a negligible source of revenue or is it a vital source of revenue that evil Tea Party types are trying to cut?
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I love how public university types whine and cry about cuts to their funding and then in the next breath talk about how there really isn't that much taxpayer funding going to public schools, anyway. Something I have seen even you try to claim on this board with regard to the UW system.
Which is it? Is taxpayer funding a negligible source of revenue or is it a vital source of revenue that evil Tea Party types are trying to cut?
I wasn't whining about anything. I was pointing out that one of the reasons tuition has increased so dramatically is because public universities have had to replace one source of income with another. If the public at large has decided to make higher education more of a "user fee" funded exercise, that's fine - we are in a democracy after all and those are legitimate choices. But the consequence of that is that tuition is going to increase at a rate higher than inflation.
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I believe it was entirely financial. The 1960s were a tough time for MU financially. That's when we dropped football as well. The university was shedding programs that were losing money.
As I recall it had more to do with the Medical School obtaining funding from outside sources, including federal and state government. The Medical School had its own separate endowment and funding which was restricted to its use only. I recall, and this was a whispered or subliminal reason, that given theological and doctrinal issues, the Medical School would be better off without its connection to a Catholic institution. Even in the mid 60's these were issues.
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I would put Washington wines up against Cal any day. I will say my favorite overall winery is Merryvale and I am partial to the Lodi old vine zins but Washington viticulture has come into its own. The best merlot in the world is now from Walla Walla's Northstar while Novelty Hill's Sangiovese is simply stunning. I would also recommend anything from Desert Wind but their Ruah is legendary.
What would recommend from Bledsoe's winery?
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Shhhhhhhhhhhh! Don't tell anyone. The greatest hidden values and the best wines in America are from Washington State!!! Andrew Will, Spring Valley (Frederick or Uriah), Leonetti, Cayuse, Canoe Ridge, Pepper Bridge, just to name a few. Check out the most recent alumni magazine and see Dineen Vineyard near Yakima, a MU grad.
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Yeah tuition is on a pretty unsustainable path. Couple that with how bad the job market is for recent college grads and business surveys suggesting how unprepared those grads are... Well there's a bailout a-comin.
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Yeah tuition is on a pretty unsustain't I dimble path. Couple that with how bad the job market is for recent college grads and business surveys suggesting how unprepared those grads are... Well there's a bailout a-comin.
I hope you're wrong. I know that school is very expensive, but that is something that each student can decide for themselves. I don't see the government bailing out everyday people. It is too expensive, and it would infuriate the folks who have had to take it in the shorts with their property.
My friends who started as HVAC, plumbing, etc apprentices make a pretty good living. Plus they don't have the enormous debt that exists for a lot of new graduates. Additionally, there are actually jobs available. It may sound like heresy, but if I had a child that was college age that didn't get scholarships, grants, financial aid, and was considering college, I'd tell him or her that they should probably not go to college. The risk/reward just isn't there anymore.
As a side note, I think its great to go to school... the experience is wonderful, the people you meet become life friends, and depending on your major you can still find a job out of school. I'd suggest going to community college for two years to keep costs low and then transfer to a major university.
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MU calls every single accepted student. I know... I am a volunteer and do this. We answer any question the kid or parent might have and strongly encourage them to join the MU family. I called over 100 people over the past couple months.
How do you know how proactive they are or are not being?
You might want to check the "every" part. My daughter was accepted into MU and offered one of the $14,000/year scholarships. She ended up declining, and going into the Honors Program at another school.
Since my wife and I both attended MU, we hoped she'd go there. I asked her how aggressive MU was in recruiting her -- assuming they'd be very aggressive since they offered her a pretty nice scholarship. She said they never called once, and instead only sent a few form letters. That's it. She chose the other school...which did a very "hard sell" on the quality of their honors program.
She is now finishing up her freshman year at the other school, on the Dean's list, doing research for a law school professor, and already taking "3000 Level" (Junior/Senior) courses as a freshman. In other words, the kind of kid who'd have been nice for MU's stats, and the sort USC seems to be rolling out the red carpet for. I can't say what she'd have done for sure, but suspect she might have been more interested in MU if the school has been more aggressive.
Don't get me wrong - I love MU and am not ripping them just because they weren't aggressive with my daughter. But if the plan is to be aggressive with the kids toward the top of the school's spectrum, some seem to be falling through the cracks.
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You might want to check the "every" part. My daughter was accepted into MU and offered one of the $14,000/year scholarships. She ended up declining, and going into the Honors Program at another school.
Since my wife and I both attended MU, we hoped she'd go there. I asked her how aggressive MU was in recruiting her -- assuming they'd be very aggressive since they offered her a pretty nice scholarship. She said they never called once, and instead only sent a few form letters. That's it. She chose the other school...which did a very "hard sell" on the quality of their honors program.
She is now finishing up her freshman year at the other school, on the Dean's list, doing research for a law school professor, and already taking "3000 Level" (Junior/Senior) courses as a freshman. In other words, the kind of kid who'd have been nice for MU's stats, and the sort USC seems to be rolling out the red carpet for. I can't say what she'd have done for sure, but suspect she might have been more interested in MU if the school has been more aggressive.
Don't get me wrong - I love MU and am not ripping them just because they weren't aggressive with my daughter. But if the plan is to be aggressive with the kids toward the top of the school's spectrum, some seem to be falling through the cracks.
3000 level courses?!?!!??!? :P
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MUfan12, what are the 2003 and 2013 #'s?
In '03, it was 18,000-something. Now, it's $34,200. Room and board has gone up about $2500 as well since then.
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Haven't you heard....the gubmit is running that dollar printing machine on overdrive the last decade...there's money everywhere. Let it rain, let it rain. ::)
You surely aren't blaming the meteoric rise in college tution on federal fiscal policies, right? That's a total non-sequitor.
I think people on the left and right agree this is an issue and universities need to be held accountable. Bottom line is there's just no accountability whatsoever. Ok, I somewhat blame the federal student loan agency as a secondary cause for automatically raising the amount students and parents can borrow, but they are doing this in response to the colleges themselves raising the cost.
The higher learning system needs a complete overhaul. They are supporting tenured professors with adjuncts who make slave wages and tuition costs that are driving middle class families broke.
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Totally random, but every time I drive downtown I wish MU could've worked with the city to make the Marquette Interchange more Marquette-ish. I know there would be some backlash of the city help a private institution but I thought some of the ramps with the Marquette logo and name on the blue and goldish paint would've added some culture to the city, looked cool, and promoted the university. Could have done the same thing to 43 by UWM to balance it out.
A lot of the times the lights on the MU interchange are blue and gold!!
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As I recall it had more to do with the Medical School obtaining funding from outside sources, including federal and state government. The Medical School had its own separate endowment and funding which was restricted to its use only. I recall, and this was a whispered or subliminal reason, that given theological and doctrinal issues, the Medical School would be better off without its connection to a Catholic institution. Even in the mid 60's these were issues.
I wasn't alive then so I'm not saying you are wrong, this is just a little surprising because it wasn't an issue at other Jesuit schools like us such as Loyola Chicago and SLU, who both still have medical schools
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In '03, it was 18,000-something. Now, it's $34,200. Room and board has gone up about $2500 as well since then.
Wow. I would have assumed the $16,000 was including R&B changes. Tuition alone almost DOUBLING in 10 years?
I cannot imagine a scenario under which private school tuition for all but a top 25 USNWR private school will be worth it by the time any children I were to have would go to college. Twenty years from now? Sheesh.
I just hope the bubble bursts before I have to worry about paying $800,000 to attend Marquette for four years.
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You might want to check the "every" part. My daughter was accepted into MU and offered one of the $14,000/year scholarships. She ended up declining, and going into the Honors Program at another school.
Since my wife and I both attended MU, we hoped she'd go there. I asked her how aggressive MU was in recruiting her -- assuming they'd be very aggressive since they offered her a pretty nice scholarship. She said they never called once, and instead only sent a few form letters. That's it. She chose the other school...which did a very "hard sell" on the quality of their honors program.
She is now finishing up her freshman year at the other school, on the Dean's list, doing research for a law school professor, and already taking "3000 Level" (Junior/Senior) courses as a freshman. In other words, the kind of kid who'd have been nice for MU's stats, and the sort USC seems to be rolling out the red carpet for. I can't say what she'd have done for sure, but suspect she might have been more interested in MU if the school has been more aggressive.
Don't get me wrong - I love MU and am not ripping them just because they weren't aggressive with my daughter. But if the plan is to be aggressive with the kids toward the top of the school's spectrum, some seem to be falling through the cracks.
Well, I can only speak to the ones I called, but many of them did not answer and did not have working answering machines. We were instructed to leave messages if they did. Perhaps the volunteer responsible for your house did not leave a message, or the missed you guys. Would be unfortunate if that was the case, its not supposed to happen.
I also know they break it down by region. I am in the Chicagoland region and we are very thorough. If you are located somewhere else, maybe the admissions coordinator there isn't doing as good of a job.
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You surely aren't blaming the meteoric rise in college tution on federal fiscal policies, right? That's a total non-sequitor.
I think people on the left and right agree this is an issue and universities need to be held accountable. Bottom line is there's just no accountability whatsoever. Ok, I somewhat blame the federal student loan agency as a secondary cause for automatically raising the amount students and parents can borrow, but they are doing this in response to the colleges themselves raising the cost.
The higher learning system needs a complete overhaul. They are supporting tenured professors with adjuncts who make slave wages and tuition costs that are driving middle class families broke.
Of course he is. Don't you dare question him either. ::)
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I wasn't alive then so I'm not saying you are wrong, this is just a little surprising because it wasn't an issue at other Jesuit schools like us such as Loyola Chicago and SLU, who both still have medical schools
They also have their own hospitals. I am sure that makes a big difference.
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I hope you're wrong. I know that school is very expensive, but that is something that each student can decide for themselves. I don't see the government bailing out everyday people. It is too expensive, and it would infuriate the folks who have had to take it in the shorts with their property.
My friends who started as HVAC, plumbing, etc apprentices make a pretty good living. Plus they don't have the enormous debt that exists for a lot of new graduates. Additionally, there are actually jobs available. It may sound like heresy, but if I had a child that was college age that didn't get scholarships, grants, financial aid, and was considering college, I'd tell him or her that they should probably not go to college. The risk/reward just isn't there anymore.
As a side note, I think its great to go to school... the experience is wonderful, the people you meet become life friends, and depending on your major you can still find a job out of school. I'd suggest going to community college for two years to keep costs low and then transfer to a major university.
On paper, you are 100% correct.
The one thing I REALLY like about a traditional 4 year experience is that it's a great incubator for kids. We all made stupid decisions at 18/19/20, but the college experience usually limits/covers some of those.
Living at home, going to community college, and driving around with your friends can sometimes amplify those poor decisions.
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You surely aren't blaming the meteoric rise in college tution on federal fiscal policies, right? That's a total non-sequitor.
I think people on the left and right agree this is an issue and universities need to be held accountable. Bottom line is there's just no accountability whatsoever. Ok, I somewhat blame the federal student loan agency as a secondary cause for automatically raising the amount students and parents can borrow, but they are doing this in response to the colleges themselves raising the cost.
The higher learning system needs a complete overhaul. They are supporting tenured professors with adjuncts who make slave wages and tuition costs that are driving middle class families broke.
I actually think Chicos is more right than you think. Colleges and universities don't really have to deal with a supply and demand issue money is so easilly lent out - and is oftentimes lent to students who perhaps are better suited in places other than four year schools.
Now don't get me wrong - if you are a student who is very likely going to graduate and going into a field where a job is a likely possibility, borrowing money for college is a no-brainer. But it's a dynamic marketplace. Marquette is doing what it can do to maximize revenue and the federal governments financial aid policies are a part of that.
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My friends who started as HVAC, plumbing, etc apprentices make a pretty good living. Plus they don't have the enormous debt that exists for a lot of new graduates. Additionally, there are actually jobs available. It may sound like heresy, but if I had a child that was college age that didn't get scholarships, grants, financial aid, and was considering college, I'd tell him or her that they should probably not go to college. The risk/reward just isn't there anymore.
Depends on the kid. I mean you can always live a comfortable life as a plumber, and that's fine if what your kid wants is comfort. But it's a career with limitations.
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Well, I can only speak to the ones I called, but many of them did not answer and did not have working answering machines. We were instructed to leave messages if they did. Perhaps the volunteer responsible for your house did not leave a message, or the missed you guys. Would be unfortunate if that was the case, its not supposed to happen.
I also know they break it down by region. I am in the Chicagoland region and we are very thorough. If you are located somewhere else, maybe the admissions coordinator there isn't doing as good of a job.
But the people making the calls were still volunteers. The people from other schools recruiting my kids were employees of the university. I answered the phone a lot when they called and got to be rather friendly with some of them. I still remember their names. They also sent cards with personal notes written inside, and emailed them articles and links that they thought my kids would find interesting. I know it made my kids feel important.
They both wound up at Marquette, but to be honest their choice had nothing to do with any effort on the Admissions Department's part.
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You surely aren't blaming the meteoric rise in college tution on federal fiscal policies, right? That's a total non-sequitor.
I think people on the left and right agree this is an issue and universities need to be held accountable. Bottom line is there's just no accountability whatsoever. Ok, I somewhat blame the federal student loan agency as a secondary cause for automatically raising the amount students and parents can borrow, but they are doing this in response to the colleges themselves raising the cost.
The higher learning system needs a complete overhaul. They are supporting tenured professors with adjuncts who make slave wages and tuition costs that are driving middle class families broke.
Nope. I was making the comment about easy money...money money money everywhere. Price increases...most of them tied to labor. I'll let you decide why that is being driven the way it is.
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They also have their own hospitals. I am sure that makes a big difference.
Doesn't MCW? I thought that's what Froedert was...
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Another84:
I contacted my friend about the whole scholarship issue and targeting the highest level students and this is in summary what she said.
It is an incredibly competitive marketplace for the highest level students. They can go pretty much anywhere they want and go there for free. If schools have enough money, they can be very strong in that pool, but for those schools that don't have those resources, concentrating too much on those students can be harmful to their overall academic profile if you don't have the $$ to be competitive for the next level of student.
She doesn't work with Marquette, but she said that it sounds like they have aimed to be competitive in the 90th percentile - where there are a lot more students so the competition isn't as tough. They don't require as much money to lure them to campus, so it leaves a lot left over for 80th percentile...70th percentile students. And your overall academic profile is a snapshot of all of your students not just those at the top.
Now she also said that if MU wants to go higher than 83 in USN&WR, they are going to have to increase resources to attract the highest level students while also maintaining the resources to get those 90th, 80th and 70th percentile kids that they have gotten previously. That would require A SIZABLE increase in their endowment.
So maybe that is where they are heading.
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I actually think Chicos is more right than you think. Colleges and universities don't really have to deal with a supply and demand issue money is so easilly lent out - and is oftentimes lent to students who perhaps are better suited in places other than four year schools.
Now don't get me wrong - if you are a student who is very likely going to graduate and going into a field where a job is a likely possibility, borrowing money for college is a no-brainer. But it's a dynamic marketplace. Marquette is doing what it can do to maximize revenue and the federal governments financial aid policies are a part of that.
Co-sign.
Once the Federal Govt got into the business of backing student loans, banks will loan to roughly anyone who wants higher education, regardless of the value of the underlying asset, namely, the future earning power of the degree obtained.
Engineering degrees and anthropology degrees have a vastly different future earning power, yet they are funded the same.
Meanwhile, with this flood of loans, Universities aren't incentivized to cut costs like regular business is, and go the opposite way: the costlier the college, the more prestigious it must be.
Those days are numbered, either via governmental policy changes (less likely) or by education consumers wising up.
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I'll comment on a couple of themes here. First, I'm glad that MU stayed exactly where it is. Jesuit universities are typically immersed in the central part of an urban area. For some, it has no appeal. For others, it represents a significant draw. Oh, and by the way, Marquette handled its 'urban problem' totally differently than did SLU. Without getting into too many details, our significantly closer proximity to downtown made our strategy more possible. Such might not have been a plausible option in St. Louis.
Second, I have long been a vocal advocate for active and aggressive recruiting by Admissions and the university as a whole. As warriorchick mentioned, both our kids were aggressively recruited by other universities. I can assure you that has an impact on a 17 y/o kid. As to the scholarship issue, TS is correct that we'll need a sizable increase in our endowment to routinely compete for the 95th percentile kids who doesn't already have some plausible ties to the university (legacy, Illinois/Wisc. resident, Catholic, etc.)
Lastly, I have used my bully pulpit to encourage university senior leadership to remember that the incoming Frosh class represents the 'new customers' on campus each August. At least two Deans limit 'bureaucratic' meetings on Frosh move-in day and now spend a block of time shaking hands on speciality dorm floors, while carrying a few boxes alongside moms and dads, and specifically thanking them for entrusting Marquette with their kids. Lest anyone who gets a paycheck from Marquette ever forget the reason they are there.
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Co-sign.
Once the Federal Govt got into the business of backing student loans, banks will loan to roughly anyone who wants higher education, regardless of the value of the underlying asset, namely, the future earning power of the degree obtained.
Engineering degrees and anthropology degrees have a vastly different future earning power, yet they are funded the same.
Meanwhile, with this flood of loans, Universities aren't incentivized to cut costs like regular business is, and go the opposite way: the costlier the college, the more prestigious it must be.
Those days are numbered, either via governmental policy changes (less likely) or by education consumers wising up.
Bingo.
The interesting thing is that it opens up the marketplace for alternatives.
Obviously there is Juco and community college, but maybe another viable alternative develops. Maybe a prep-school/juco hybrid. More structure than a juco, but still better value when compared to spending big $$$ for your frosh. and soph. year at a 4 year school.
Also, I think the HS educational system could use a revamp as well, but that's a whole different topic.
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Co-sign.
Those days are numbered, either via governmental policy changes (less likely) or by education consumers wising up.
Fortunately, this is already happening with the for-profit colleges that load naive, hopeful, people up with tens of thousands of dollars in loans, take their lifetime eligibility for Pell Grants, and give them basically nothing in return.
We park down by Everest College when we go to the BC for games, and it used to depress me to see the number of people lined at the bus stop near there late at night, looking exhausted (because you know a lot of them worked a full day before they went to class), and me knowing that they were probably wasting their time and money. I have heard it has closed down; good riddance.
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(Heath care discussion was moved to a new thread in SuperBar .. this thread can continue on MU's Long term planning powerpoint..)
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I would put Washington wines up against Cal any day. I will say my favorite overall winery is Merryvale and I am partial to the Lodi old vine zins but Washington viticulture has come into its own. The best merlot in the world is now from Walla Walla's Northstar while Novelty Hill's Sangiovese is simply stunning. I would also recommend anything from Desert Wind but their Ruah is legendary.
What would recommend from Bledsoe's winery?
Shhhhhhhhhhhh! Don't tell anyone. The greatest hidden values and the best wines in America are from Washington State!!! Andrew Will, Spring Valley (Frederick or Uriah), Leonetti, Cayuse, Canoe Ridge, Pepper Bridge, just to name a few. Check out the most recent alumni magazine and see Dineen Vineyard near Yakima, a MU grad.
Wow. I have visited the Dineen tasting room. We used to drive over the pass and spend the day tasting in Zillah and Dineen was one of the stops. They have a truck out front which is their brand image. Great Cab Franc. I had no idea the owner was an MU grad.
We regularly hit Dineen, Silver Lake, Bonair, Severino, Two Mountains and Sagelands on a Sunday afternoon. Rattlesnake Hills has some outstanding wineries.
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Son #2 and 3 teammates from state runner-up team signed with the Cougs. He had offers from USAFA, Vandals, Sun Devils, Grizzlies, among others. They didn't win much as those were dark years in the Palouse but he certainly made life time friends. He's now in Med School at Michigan so obviously his football career ended in Pullman.
I would put Washington wines up against Cal any day. I will say my favorite overall winery is Merryvale and I am partial to the Lodi old vine zins but Washington viticulture has come into its own. The best merlot in the world is now from Walla Walla's Northstar while Novelty Hill's Sangiovese is simply stunning. I would also recommend anything from Desert Wind but their Ruah is legendary.
What would recommend from Bledsoe's winery?
A neighbor of ours was the QB at Wazzou many years ago when I was growing up....Brad Gossen....1987-1990. Starter his last two years, now president of EBA&M in Orange County.
DoubleBack Vineyards (Bledsoe's winery) is known for their Cabernet Sauv.
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Of course he is. Don't you dare question him either. ::)
And, of course, you were wrong...again. :o
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We park down by Everest College when we go to the BC for games, and it used to depress me to see the number of people lined at the bus stop near there late at night, looking exhausted (because you know a lot of them worked a full day before they went to class), and me knowing that they were probably wasting their time and money. I have heard it has closed down; good riddance.
I hope the whole for-profit education industry collapses. Chicos is correct in that the rapid acceleration in available cheap money fueled the growth of secondary education, not the least of which was the for-profit segment. These guys preyed on military enlisted, largely drawn by military education benefits. Schools like Everest, Argosy, AIU, Colorado Tech, et al sucked up the entitlements of young airmen, soldiers, sailors, and marines in exchange for worthless "diplomas." Thankfully, the Air Force went balls to the wall in letting airmen know the value of degrees from these on-line mills.
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A neighbor of ours was the QB at Wazzou many years ago when I was growing up....Brad Gossen....1987-1990. Starter his last two years, now president of EBA&M in Orange County.
DoubleBack Vineyards (Bledsoe's winery) is known for their Cabernet Sauv.
Thanks for the tip. I'll check it out. Any particular vintage?
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I finally got around to reading this. As somebody who's worked in strategic planning in the past (albeit in the corporate world, not higher ed), this seems like not much more than fluff PR to me. There's a lot missing in the "why" this strategy is the right strategy (i.e. is more research important, does a greater focus on social justice help to attract the types of students MU wants relative to its peer schools) and "how" it's going to get there. Definition of success is clear in some cases (a lot of mention of Carnegie and US News rankings) and should provide more tactical direction, but overall doesn't seem like there is an actionable plan in place.
This isn't a critique on MU as the institution it is, but more on the detail and method of communication given in getting to the outlined goals. Personally I would have liked to see more rigor in the details if this is truly a strategic plan and not just a vision statement.
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One thing the MU administration needs to do is to get the town fathers (and mothers) of Marquette, MI to change their city name to something, anything else.
Is there anyone on this board who has not been told MU is in MI? ;)
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Another84:
I contacted my friend about the whole scholarship issue and targeting the highest level students and this is in summary what she said.
It is an incredibly competitive marketplace for the highest level students. They can go pretty much anywhere they want and go there for free. If schools have enough money, they can be very strong in that pool, but for those schools that don't have those resources, concentrating too much on those students can be harmful to their overall academic profile if you don't have the $$ to be competitive for the next level of student.
She doesn't work with Marquette, but she said that it sounds like they have aimed to be competitive in the 90th percentile - where there are a lot more students so the competition isn't as tough. They don't require as much money to lure them to campus, so it leaves a lot left over for 80th percentile...70th percentile students. And your overall academic profile is a snapshot of all of your students not just those at the top.
Now she also said that if MU wants to go higher than 83 in USN&WR, they are going to have to increase resources to attract the highest level students while also maintaining the resources to get those 90th, 80th and 70th percentile kids that they have gotten previously. That would require A SIZABLE increase in their endowment.
So maybe that is where they are heading.
The USC program is targeted at the top kids that send in an application. That means that kid has an interest and USC has a machinery in place to offer money, personal contact (via administrators, existing students and profs ... Not volunteers) and other enticements to attend. Your response sounds different than this, about reaching out to top kids to get them to apply in the first place.
Based on other posts here, sounds like MU does little more than form letters, volunteer contact and offers to fill out more applications for top students that applied.
If MU wants to move up the ranking, they need better students. They can start by identifying the top 100 to 300 applications they get every year and give them money, pay for visits (good seats to a basketball game for their visit?), assign professors and students to woo them.
USC does this. Dartmouth and Georgetown are also aggressive in going after top applications as well.
Many of them will come if they are felt wanted. Make them feel wanted. Form letters do not do this.
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The University should start by paying all the media outlets to NOT show Marquette, MI on weather reports. No idea why they always show that little city, but most people assume that's where MU is
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Aspirations are fine and dandy, however, as a commercial entity, is it better for MU to try to go head to head for fewer students with BC, UND or Gtown, all with significantly better research facilities and higher endowments, or to be the best of the next tier? In the end, MU is an engineering, law and a medical services school. The Eastern elite will be lining up to travel to Milwaukee versus being in the exciting hubs of Boston and DC I am sure.
This is why Pilarz's vision is mismatched for the Midwest. He really doesn't understand his base Midwest Catholic consumer, or the school of firsts. Hispanics will be the number one demographic of kids in the near future, for example, and unlike the baby boomers who as parents went to college in high numbers, many parents of future students will not have gone to college. This vision is only about an academic aspiration, but it isn't linked to why it makes reasonable business sense. A real miss, IMO.
Wild understood what Marquette's core brand was and who the school's consumers were, raised MU to the best of the next tier, raised the recruiting profile out east via the Big East, understood what the market advantaged majors were, also had MU positioned as one of the most affordable private schools (believe it or not Topper) and recruited the hell out of Chicago.
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Aspirations are fine and dandy, however, as a commercial entity, is it better for MU to try to go head to head for fewer students with BC, UND or Gtown, all with significantly better research facilities and higher endowments, or to be the best of the next tier? In the end, MU is an engineering, law and a medical services school. The Eastern elite will be lining up to travel to Milwaukee versus being in the exciting hubs of Boston and DC I am sure.
This is why Pilarz's vision is mismatched for the Midwest. He really doesn't understand his base Midwest Catholic consumer, or the school of firsts. Hispanics will be the number one demographic of kids in the near future, for example, and unlike the baby boomers who as parents went to college in high numbers, many parents of future students will not have gone to college. This vision is only about an academic aspiration, but it isn't linked to why it makes reasonable business sense. A real miss, IMO.
Wild understood what Marquette's core brand was and who the school's consumers were, raised MU to the best of the next tier, raised the recruiting profile out east via the Big East, understood what the market advantaged majors were, also had MU positioned as one of the most affordable private schools (believe it or not Topper) and recruited the hell out of Chicago.
Interesting comments. Not sure what the answer is. Here in my backyard, USC for a longtime was considered a second tier school until Dr. Sample took over and really kicked into high gear. It's now routinely a top 30 school in the nation. I think it can be done, but your comments about the Midwest and who our consumer is might be on to something. Here in So. Cal, USC could do this, go head to head with UCLA academically and pull it off. USC has tremendous resources to pull it off.
UC Irvine has done the same thing....when I chose to go to MU it was between UCSD, UC Irvine and MU...today, UCSD and UC Irvine are both top 50 schools (UCSD also a top 10 public university in the US), but that wasn't the case 25 years ago when I was selecting between those three. It is possible to raise the profile, but your comments have me thinking how possible it is where we are located and the resources are out disposal.
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Aspirations are fine and dandy, however, as a commercial entity, is it better for MU to try to go head to head for fewer students with BC, UND or Gtown, all with significantly better research facilities and higher endowments, or to be the best of the next tier? In the end, MU is an engineering, law and a medical services school. The Eastern elite will be lining up to travel to Milwaukee versus being in the exciting hubs of Boston and DC I am sure.
This is why Pilarz's vision is mismatched for the Midwest. He really doesn't understand his base Midwest Catholic consumer, or the school of firsts. Hispanics will be the number one demographic of kids in the near future, for example, and unlike the baby boomers who as parents went to college in high numbers, many parents of future students will not have gone to college. This vision is only about an academic aspiration, but it isn't linked to why it makes reasonable business sense. A real miss, IMO.
Wild understood what Marquette's core brand was and who the school's consumers were, raised MU to the best of the next tier, raised the recruiting profile out east via the Big East, understood what the market advantaged majors were, also had MU positioned as one of the most affordable private schools (believe it or not Topper) and recruited the hell out of Chicago.
Ah, the Wisconsin inferiority complex comes out. The Midwest is second tier (especially Milwaukee) and it's folly to try and be anything but that. So just recruit Hispanic kids from Chicago and be done with it!
How about these formerly second tier schools from 25 to 30 years ago (current USN ranking)? Why can't MU aspire to join this group in (or near) the the top 50?
St. Louis - Wash U (#14)
Houston - Rice #17)
Atlanta - Emory (#20)
Pittsburgh - Carnegie Mellon (#23)
Winston- Salem - Wake Forest (#27)
Rochester - Rochester (#33)
Cleveland - Case Western (#37)
Bethlehem - Lehigh (#38)
Troy - Rensselear Poly (#41)
NYC - Yeshiva (#46)
New Orleans - Tulane (#51)
NYC - Fordham (#58)
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Ah, the Wisconsin inferiority complex comes out. The Midwest is second tier (especially Milwaukee) and it's folly to try and be anything but that. So just recruit Hispanic kids from Chicago and be done with it!
How about these formerly second tier schools from 25 to 30 years ago (current USN ranking)? Why can't MU aspire to join this group in (or near) the the top 50?
St. Louis - Wash U (#14)
Houston - Rice #17)
Atlanta - Emory (#20)
Pittsburgh - Carnegie Mellon (#23)
Winston- Salem - Wake Forest (#27)
Rochester - Rochester (#33)
Cleveland - Case Western (#37)
Bethlehem - Lehigh (#38)
Troy - Rensselear Poly (#41)
NYC - Yeshiva (#46)
New Orleans - Tulane (#51)
NYC - Fordham (#58)
They can certainly aspire to join them. But outside of Fordham, Marquette has a significantly smaller endowment than any of those schools you list. MU's is about $450M...Fordam's about $580M...the rest are over $1B.
And one of the questions that Blackheart brings up is a good one. Why does MU need to significantly increase it's academic profile? What about its core mission? How about the growing Catholic population that is increasingly Hispanic and likely first-generation? Can you serve them in this new model? Do you even want to?
This isn't a race where those ranked highest win a prize. It's about being the best institution you can be while being true to your mission.
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They can certainly aspire to join them. But outside of Fordham, Marquette has a significantly smaller endowment than any of those schools you list. MU's is about $450M...Fordam's about $580M...the rest are over $1B.
And one of the questions that Blackheart brings up is a good one. Why does MU need to significantly increase it's academic profile? What about its core mission? How about the growing Catholic population that is increasingly Hispanic and likely first-generation? Can you serve them in this new model? Do you even want to?
This isn't a race where those ranked highest win a prize. It's about being the best institution you can be while being true to your mission.
Which comes first, academic reputation or endowment size?
I think all you that cite endowment size as a constraint are confusing cause and effect.
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If we want to raise our profile, we need $$$$$$. Plain and simple.
I went to USC for grad school. At the time, they announced the largest fundraising campaign in US history with a goal of $5 BILLION (apparently Harvard announced a larger campaign since then). Keeping in mind that MU has never had a private donation exceed $51M, USC has received individual donations of $175M (George Lucas), $110M (an oil/gas alum), and $200M (steel industry alum).
USC has two top colleges - their business school and their communications school. Both colleges produce wealthy alums. Annenberg is their niche...and they dominate along with about 4 other j-schools around the country. What is our niche? We need one...and it cant be dentistry. Dentists make a nice living and when they are finally able to pay off their students loans, they might donate from time to time.
Do we have uber-wealthy alumni? No. Do we have a bunch of individuals that can write 9 figure checks? No. We need money, though. I think we need to create a new niche. The university cant sell the old-fashioned liberal arts degree. We need a college that is nationally recognized and places alums in an industry that is sustainable and pays well (like Annenberg). We need a college that high school seniors from around the country are drawn to. Instead of sprinkling money around and making broad university improvements, I wish there would be more of a focus on specific degree programs within a college.
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Which comes first, academic reputation or endowment size?
I think all you that cite endowment size as a constraint are confusing cause and effect.
Endowment clearly comes first. Without a strong endowment you can't attract the students and faculty needed to move up the rankings.
Growing the endowment take vision and donors to buy into that vision. But its going to be real hard to grow your academic reputation without additional resources.
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Marquette's recruiting is pathetic. 2 nephews who were top of their class at DelaSalle in Chicago were willing and received almost no information from the MU person responsible. They went elsewhere. A friends son in south suburbs was down to Kansas and MU. His dad had big bucks so the Kansas folks were aggressive. MU's recruiters were lacking.
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How about these formerly second tier schools from 25 to 30 years ago (current USN ranking)?
St. Louis - Wash U (#14)
Houston - Rice #17)
Atlanta - Emory (#20)
Pittsburgh - Carnegie Mellon (#23)
New Orleans - Tulane (#51)
I'm not certain what you mean by second tier but these five schools have long been regarded as first rank for generations. They have not been transformed in the past 25 years...
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Hmmmm, I joined conversation late (been traveling) but med school long gone and gone for good. My dad was professor of surgery at the Marquette medical school so it has always been close to my heart. MU lost it when asking the state to kick in some funds. The usual outcry from the Milwaukee Journal and a few local representatives about separation of church and state turned into the state dangling a pile of cash in front of the school and MU caved.
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I heard a suggestion once (from a scoop member, but I'll let him out himself), that Marquette create a small fund to loan money to new-ish grads looking to buy some of the (previously beautiful) houses around campus.
I'm sure there are a million reasons it's a bad idea, but I love it. Cleans up the neighborhood, brings what I'd expect to be stable, working adults with some disposable income and builds a community.
Won't necessarily raise the profile of the school, but certainly would take the "security" aspect down a notch.
This was me. I'll come out of the closet.
I think adding a buffer between campus and the near north side would be a boon for Marquette. I'd be willing to spend my money on a house in that area if I knew that other like-minded alumni were doing the same thing in the coming years. I just don't have a great idea how to kick something like that off...
One of my many excellent ideas, just ask me!
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Another84:
I contacted my friend about the whole scholarship issue and targeting the highest level students and this is in summary what she said.
It is an incredibly competitive marketplace for the highest level students. They can go pretty much anywhere they want and go there for free. If schools have enough money, they can be very strong in that pool, but for those schools that don't have those resources, concentrating too much on those students can be harmful to their overall academic profile if you don't have the $$ to be competitive for the next level of student.
She doesn't work with Marquette, but she said that it sounds like they have aimed to be competitive in the 90th percentile - where there are a lot more students so the competition isn't as tough. They don't require as much money to lure them to campus, so it leaves a lot left over for 80th percentile...70th percentile students. And your overall academic profile is a snapshot of all of your students not just those at the top.
Now she also said that if MU wants to go higher than 83 in USN&WR, they are going to have to increase resources to attract the highest level students while also maintaining the resources to get those 90th, 80th and 70th percentile kids that they have gotten previously. That would require A SIZABLE increase in their endowment.
So maybe that is where they are heading.
Schools like Notre Dame, Boston College, Georgetown etc. where there is a high number of applications per opening do not give full ride merit money unless there is financial need.
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Schools like Notre Dame, Boston College, Georgetown etc. where there is a high number of applications per opening do not give full ride merit money unless there is financial need.
Yes but these schools are VERY liberal with needs based financial aid. So many of these schools are the cheapest in the country.
For instance at Harvard, families making less than 75,000 do not have to pay. Between 75,000 and 150,000 the average cost of tuition is just 12,000. Over 60% get a reduced tuition rate. The other Ives and many of the very selective colleges are the same.
This is where a huge endowment is a big advantage.
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Ah, the Wisconsin inferiority complex comes out. The Midwest is second tier (especially Milwaukee) and it's folly to try and be anything but that. So just recruit Hispanic kids from Chicago and be done with it!
How about these formerly second tier schools from 25 to 30 years ago (current USN ranking)? Why can't MU aspire to join this group in (or near) the the top 50?
Fact: The largest demographic group of college aged kids will be Hispanic in a few years. They are very Catholic, many of their parents will not have attended college, and yes, many are from Chicago. And yes, Chicago/Illinois now represents a majority, for the first time, of MU's enrollment as it is. And no, Milwaukee doesn't have the medical research campuses like Boston, nor is it the seat of power like DC. It is not a banking center. It is a reality, not an inferiority complex.
Yes, MU can raise their standards. They will be competing with many endowed schools for fewer students. Is MU willing to shrink enrollment to be like many of the speciality schools you mentioned? I say no, which makes the whole vision commercially flawed. MU is just fine in that 75 range. Why? Because that segment is bigger and more achievable and can be sustained for the long-term viable health of the university and is consistent with what Marquette has always been about. Wild had it right, Pilarz doesn't.
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I think adding a buffer between campus and the near north side would be a boon for Marquette. One of my many excellent ideas, just ask me!
This is a terrible idea. The buffer between the university and the natives was the student housing between Wells and State Street. I know Lenny and I both cut our teeth on life drinking in those State Street bars. I remember my first time in Fallujah...young LT asked if I was concerned. I replied, "Hell no. I used to drink at Lenny's!"
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For instance at Harvard, families making less than 75,000 do not have to pay. Between 75,000 and 150,000 the average cost of tuition is just 12,000. Over 60% get a reduced tuition rate. The other Ives and many of the very selective colleges are the same.
Is that right...
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Is that right...
Yes, the highly selective schools came to a realization that qualified kids from lesser means families were not applying. So they are incentivizing them.
Essentially Harvard's tuition is "pay what you can." From 40% that is the list price if 41k. As I said before the other 60% pay less.
I'll bet the average tuition paid at Havard is less than MU.
Added later ...
This is what a large endowment allows you to do (more so than research) ...
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2013/03/college-admits-2029-5-8-percent-of-applicants/
“Unprecedented levels of financial aid played a major role in producing a record applicant pool and an admitted group that promises to be one of the best in Harvard’s history,” said William R. Fitzsimmons, dean of admissions and financial aid. “The leadership of President Drew Faust, Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences Michael Smith, and Dean of the College Evelynn Hammonds in providing a record $182 million in need-based financial aid affirms Harvard’s longstanding commitment to enroll the nation’s and the world’s best students regardless of economic background.”
“We expect that nearly 60 percent of the students admitted to the Class of 2017 will need financial assistance in order to attend,” said Sarah C. Donahue, director of financial aid. “Their families will pay an average of only $12,000 per year. About 20 percent of Harvard families, those with normal assets making $65,000 or less annually, will pay nothing at all.” As always, students contribute to the cost of their education through term-time and summer work.
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Yes, the highly selective schools came to a realization that qualified kids from lesser means families were not applying. So they are incentivizing them.
Essentially Harvard's tuition is "pay what you can." From 40% that is the list price if 41k. As I said before the other 60% pay less.
I'll bet the average tuition paid at Havard is less than MU.
Added later ...
This is what a large endowment allows you to do (more so than research) ...
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2013/03/college-admits-2029-5-8-percent-of-applicants/
“Unprecedented levels of financial aid played a major role in producing a record applicant pool and an admitted group that promises to be one of the best in Harvard’s history,” said William R. Fitzsimmons, dean of admissions and financial aid. “The leadership of President Drew Faust, Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences Michael Smith, and Dean of the College Evelynn Hammonds in providing a record $182 million in need-based financial aid affirms Harvard’s longstanding commitment to enroll the nation’s and the world’s best students regardless of economic background.”
“We expect that nearly 60 percent of the students admitted to the Class of 2017 will need financial assistance in order to attend,” said Sarah C. Donahue, director of financial aid. “Their families will pay an average of only $12,000 per year. About 20 percent of Harvard families, those with normal assets making $65,000 or less annually, will pay nothing at all.” As always, students contribute to the cost of their education through term-time and summer work.
My parents paid 12,000 for my entire 4 years ('65-'69) and thought that was outrageously high. Tuition is costs are rising faster than just about anything else.
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Fact: The largest demographic group of college aged kids will be Hispanic in a few years. They are very Catholic, many of their parents will not have attended college, and yes, many are from Chicago. And yes, Chicago/Illinois now represents a majority, for the first time, of MU's enrollment as it is. And no, Milwaukee doesn't have the medical research campuses like Boston, nor is it the seat of power like DC. It is not a banking center. It is a reality, not an inferiority complex.
Yes, MU can raise their standards. They will be competing with many endowed schools for fewer students. Is MU willing to shrink enrollment to be like many of the speciality schools you mentioned? I say no, which makes the whole vision commercially flawed. MU is just fine in that 75 range. Why? Because that segment is bigger and more achievable and can be sustained for the long-term viable health of the university and is consistent with what Marquette has always been about. Wild had it right, Pilarz doesn't.
One of the other issues....
If you turn the university into something that isn't recognizable to those who will be counted on to give the $$$ to build the endowment, you run the risk of alienating them.
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One of the other issues....
If you turn the university into something that isn't recognizable to those who will be counted on to give the $$$ to build the endowment, you run the risk of alienating them.
The mission approved was to raise the profile (including its ranking) and the endowment size. Within this goal, what are you afraid they will do that will alienate donors? Remember the largest donors are the BOT and they approved this.
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When schools become substantially different than the institutions that their alumni remember them, it can oftentimes alienate them. For instance, at a school I worked for prior to this one, our wealthiest alumnus wouldn't give much to us because he stated "that I wouldn't even be able to get into the school now." It wasn't the school that took the chance on him...gave him the education that helped him to succeed...and took him places he never thought he would go.
And the BOT may or may not be the top donors to the school. They may be a slice of those donors, but they are not all of them.
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When schools become substantially different than the institutions that their alumni remember them, it can oftentimes alienate them. For instance, at a school I worked for prior to this one, our wealthiest alumnus wouldn't give much to us because he stated "that I wouldn't even be able to get into the school now." It wasn't the school that took the chance on him...gave him the education that helped him to succeed...and took him places he never thought he would go.
And the BOT may or may not be the top donors to the school. They may be a slice of those donors, but they are not all of them.
So, MU should not try to become a better school because some may not like it? And you proof is one cement head that had no vision when it came to college giving?
As an aside ... whether this is an outright goal or not, academic standards are going up in all schools that in the top 100 of USN rankings. You can thank the common app for the explosion of applications.
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Yes but these schools are VERY liberal with needs based financial aid. So many of these schools are the cheapest in the country.
For instance at Harvard, families making less than 75,000 do not have to pay. Between 75,000 and 150,000 the average cost of tuition is just 12,000. Over 60% get a reduced tuition rate. The other Ives and many of the very selective colleges are the same.
This is where a huge endowment is a big advantage.
A small group of schools were risking non-profit status because they were not paying out enough of their endowments on an annual basis. This is a very elite group. Just being a national merit finalist won't get you into these schools. You need a resume of accomplishments. As far as most top 50 schools they don't have check the box and you can get $14,000 off based on merit only. That being said you have schools like the University of Alabama if you score higher than 32 on your ACT they give you a full ride regardless of financial status.
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For instance, at a school I worked for prior to this one, our wealthiest alumnus wouldn't give much to us because he stated "that I wouldn't even be able to get into the school now." It wasn't the school that took the chance on him...gave him the education that helped him to succeed...and took him places he never thought he would go.
Nailed it!!!!!
While I am pretty confident I could get into Marquette today, the question is could I get out of it. That means the ability to pay for it. Four years of Marquette when I was there was about $21,000, all-in. My understanding is that today it's somewhere between $150,000 and $200,000. Inflation between the mid-1970s and now should have it at about $70,000 or so.
My parents had five children in five years (and a sixth later). They paid for our tuition, mostly by saving and because Dad was head of a consulting firm. Not sure they could shell out $1.0 million for five children, be able to retire and take care of themselves in today's world. What this effectively means is that Marquette is for the very rich, whose parents can write the check, the very gifted, who somehow can find merit scholarship money, or the very poor, who can rely on the government and foundations.
The key word in all of this is "very." At Marquette's prices, there's no way many of the middle class can go there. I still love the place and give decent sums annually, but the current trends at Marquette are scary and are angering many of us who support the university. To go a step further, Marquette is proud of it having a large number of "first time" college students. That's because they've adopted the same third party payer model killing health care and it's the first time college student that's most likely to be part of the third party payer system.
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When I was at Marquette in the 70's I could almost cover my tuition from what I made caddying during the summer. Today it would take almost all of the after tax income of a family making $100,000. When you consider federal, state, FICA, and property taxes there would be nothing left!
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A small group of schools were risking non-profit status because they were not paying out enough of their endowments on an annual basis. This is a very elite group. Just being a national merit finalist won't get you into these schools. You need a resume of accomplishments. As far as most top 50 schools they don't have check the box and you can get $14,000 off based on merit only. That being said you have schools like the University of Alabama if you score higher than 32 on your ACT they give you a full ride regardless of financial status.
The University of Georgia does something similar ... in state kids that average a B in HS paid $1,000/year. Average an A in HS and pay no tuition at Georgia. (Incidentally this has led to horrible grade inflation in Georgia public HS. The daughter of a friend in Atlanta is in a public HS. She is a senior averaging 87 on a 100 scale. That roughly translates to a B+ average on a 4.0 scale. Her class ranking puts her in the LOWER THIRD!)
Back to Harvard
20% pay zero
40% pay $12k
40% pay 41k (list price)
Average tuition this year = $21,000/year.
This is how the top schools keep the top kids. Yes everyone wants to go to Harvard but not everyone can afford it. So to prevent them from becoming a school for only elitists, the average tuition paid is a lot less than the list price. You can do that when you have a $31 billion endowment like Harvard.
What can MU immediately do? Put in place a program to recruit/woo top applications. Give them money to attend, lower the average tuition paid. This will have an immediate effect of raising the average test scores/GPA and overall quality of incoming kids. This will raise their USN ranking and give the school a better academic reputation. They can do this now. (This is what USC does as I explained above)
Schools like MU currently lose two ways, they have lesser reputation than to 50 USN schools and many of those schools are effectively cheaper than MU.
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I think we need to completely ignore the US News and World report list. For the colleges between us and fifty, which is probably a theoretical maximum, there is absolutely no way to make comparisons. How do you compare Marquette to Alabama or Florida??? Why would you even think about trying to compare us to Rutgers, PSU, tOSU, or UConn???? I am a NJ native and can tell you that I would never trade an undergrad education at MU for Rutgers. PSU is great for Frats and Tailgaiting, but I am glad I went to MU.
What levers are you going to pull to make us more attractive than these schools?
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So, MU should not try to become a better school because some may not like it? And you proof is one cement head that had no vision when it came to college giving?
"Cement head?" The guy had every right to donate where he wanted to and he didn't buy into the vision. Instead he donated seven figures to the local community foundation to support college scholarships for first-generation students with extreme financial need. Is that a bad thing? That is a really arrogant statement to make.
And also I think a lot of people here are assuming that increasing the schools academic profile is automatically a good thing. It may or may not be. Schools have missions and their goal should be to to excel within that mission. Whether or not it is to be a top national university, or a top regional school, or a school of access to underserved populations, there is nothing right or wrong...or better or worse...about any of those. So honestly I really don't care all that much if MU increases its academic profile, but I think it would be a shame if it changed its mission significantly in order to do so.
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I think we need to completely ignore the US News and World report list. For the colleges between us and fifty, which is probably a theoretical maximum, there is absolutely no way to make comparisons. How do you compare Marquette to Alabama or Florida??? Why would you even think about trying to compare us to Rutgers, PSU, tOSU, or UConn???? I am a NJ native and can tell you that I would never trade an undergrad education at MU for Rutgers. PSU is great for Frats and Tailgaiting, but I am glad I went to MU.
What levers are you going to pull to make us more attractive than these schools?
Raising the USN ranking is a stated goal of this vision.
USN ranking are like BCS football rankings. They are flawed, biased and inaccurate. But they matter, and they matter a lot. That is the world we live in.
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Raising the USN ranking is a stated goal of this vision.
USN ranking are like BCS football rankings. They are flawed, biased and inaccurate. But they matter, and they matter a lot. That is the world we live in.
Why do you think they "matter a lot?"
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Why do you think they "matter a lot?"
MU is considered a national university. So to attract kids outside its region (however you define "region" for MU), it needs to keep its academic profile as high as possible. USN ranking are very important in forming this reputation.
As an example, significantly drop Case Western Reserve's USN ranking when the update comes this year. Let's see if it "matters."
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Raising the USN ranking is a stated goal of this vision.
USN ranking are like BCS football rankings. They are flawed, biased and inaccurate. But they matter, and they matter a lot. That is the world we live in.
OK, if that is the goal, then we need to understand why Alabama is ranked ahead of us. I have no idea. If it is because of some weird flaw, bias, or inaccuracy, are we really going to try to overcome that?
They used to publish the schools endowments along side of the rankings, but did not this year. I think that you would find correlation, and, actually, I have thought that MUs endowment has been way too low for way to long. So I have no problem with them wanting to increase the endowment since that can lead to better things on the academic side.
One thing that was of interest to me was their interest in increasing research. I am a researcher and can perhaps add some insight here. Many of the schools in the top 50 are major research universities. One thing that this means is that many of the faculty in the basic science departments are given contracts that require little to no teaching of the undergrads; their job is to publish significant research and to attract NIH or NSF funding. At MU, I suspect that the contacts are about 50/50 undergrad teaching/research. I would consider this a major advantage for an undergrad at MU. The will be members of the National Academy of Sciences at the Research institutions, but if they never contact the undergrads, what does it matter.
A final point that I would like to make is increasing research is a noble goal, but you had better be prepared to spend big bucks to do so: NIH funding is so ridiculous these days that many excellent scientists are or will be unemployed soon. It is therefore a great time to recruit these faculty, but you better have BIG bucks to support their research.
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MU is considered a national university. So to attract kids outside its region (however you define "region" for MU), it needs to keep its academic profile as high as possible. USN ranking are very important in forming this reputation.
As an example, significantly drop Case Western Reserve's USN ranking when the update comes this year. Let's see if it "matters."
I think MU should base its reputation on things other than garbage-in, garbage-out USN&WR rankings.
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OK, if that is the goal, then we need to understand why Alabama is ranked ahead of us. I have no idea. If it is because of some weird flaw, bias, or inaccuracy, are we really going to try to overcome that?
Is Alabama ranked ahead of us?
Six schools are tied at #77
American University
Baylor
Colorado School of Mines
SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry
Alabama
University of California--Santa Cruz
Then six schools are tied at 83
Drexel University
Indiana University--Bloomington
Marquette University
University of Denver
University of Tulsa
Their might be not statistical different between these 12 schools. If MU were to try, just try (which until now, they apparently did not), they could probably move out of the 83 category, leapfrog the 77 category to to the 75 category, which includes:
Stevens Institute of Technology
University of Delaware
or to the 72 category:
Michigan State University
University of Iowa
Virginia Tech
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/spp%2B50/page+2
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I think MU should base its reputation on things other than garbage-in, garbage-out USN&WR rankings.
Perhaps part of the strategy for raising our USN ranking might be to join with other like-minded institutions to convince USN to use more relevant criteria. Besides 1990's excellent point about research, another criterion they use is the percentage of alumni who contribute to the school. While I think we can all agree that it is important for alumni to contribute, it is way too heavily weighted in the USN rankings, and I'm not sure a direct correlation to school quality has been proven.
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Their might be not statistical different between these 12 schools. If MU were to try, just try (which until now, they apparently did not), they could probably move out of the 83 category, leapfrog the 77 category to to the 75 category, which includes:
1) Statistical difference in what metric? SAT scores, class size?
2) I thought MU was 1) playing up their USN ranking and 2) a little obsessed with increasing it for a number of years now.
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I think MU should base its reputation on things other than garbage-in, garbage-out USN&WR rankings.
They do base their reputation on other things, but the USN ranking is one of the things.
When Buzz says he does not care about our AP ranking during the season, do you believe him? When posters here say they do not care about our AP ranking, do you believe them? When posters here say our AP ranking helps with recruiting, are they wrong?
Is not USN ranking the same?
(For the record, I do not like them anymore than you. Instead I accepted that is the world we live in and will play the game)
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2) I thought MU was 1) playing up their USN ranking and 2) a little obsessed with increasing it for a number of years now.
If that is the case, then why would the BOT approve a plan to raise its rankings when they were already trying to do that? You don't approve things you are already doing. So, it took this to be a new initiative.
Having kids applying to colleges right now I can tell you EVERY school plays up their USN ranking the same as MU (save the top 5 or 10 schools in the nation, because they do not have to). MU is no more obsessed with their ranking than anyone else.
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They do base their reputation on other things, but the USN ranking is one of the things.
When Buzz says he does not care about our AP ranking during the season, do you believe him? When posters here say they do not care about our AP ranking, do you believe them? When posters here say our AP ranking helps with recruiting, are they wrong?
Is not USN ranking the same?
They are equally irrelevant. I pay attention to neither.
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For the record, here are MU's USN 2013 US News and World Report Rankings
College of Arts & Sciences
Biological sciences at Marquette ranked as 181st overall
Chemistry program was 140th.
Clinical psychology ranked 79th
Psychology ranked 158th
English ranked 98th
History was 110th.
College of Business Administration and the Graduate School of Management
Marquette's undergraduate program ranked 77th in BusinessWeek's 2013 rankings.
Marquette's undergraduate majors in supply chain management as 16th
Finance as 17th
Accounting as 23rd
Entrepreneurship program as 24th nationwide
U.S. News put Marquette's graduate international business program at 22nd overall in 2013 and the executive MBA program ranked 15th.[37]
For 2014, the part-time MBA program was ranked 50th.
College of Nursing
In 2012, U.S. News listed the College of Nursing graduate program as the 44th best in the country, while its nursing-midwifery program was 19th nationally.
The College has one of only five doctorate programs in the U.S. with a "teacher/scholar" focus.
College of Education
The College of Education's graduate degree was most recently ranked 65th overall by U.S. News, up from 79th.
College of Engineering
The school's graduate biomedical engineering program was ranked 53rd in 2013 by U.S. News & World Report.
College of Health Sciences
The physical therapy program was ranked 12th in the nation in 2013 by U.S. News & World Report, and the physician assistant program was ranked 42nd.
The speech-language pathology program was ranked 62nd in the nation in 2013 as well.
Law School
The Marquette Law School ranked among the top 100 schools, according to U.S. News, with its dispute resolution program ranking 7th and its part-time law degree ranking 19th.
The legal writing program was 22nd overall.
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There are too many liberal arts universities.
There are too many kids that graduate from these schools and then say, "ok, now what do I do?"
The global economy is becoming more and more specialized. It is very, very difficult to make career changes - you better major in something you are passionate about and that is marketable or you will find yourself getting a masters degree that will do just that.
Kids most likely to succeed pick programs or colleges within universities that are very, very good at preparing students for the specific discipline. Unfortunately, not everyone figures it out as an upper classman in h.s.
Just hired a kid from Northeastern not long ago. I was blown away by that school's curriculum. Very unusual in that its not your traditional university. Getting actual work experience through internships all throughout your 5 year undergrad program is a great opportunity, IMO. There is nothing better than on-the-job exposure WHILE you are figuring out what you want to major in. Northeastern kids seem to have things figured out a lot better when they graduate than most kids from traditional 4 year colleges. I will most definitely look at Northeastern kids more often for entry level openings.
A well-rounded individual has value to society, but a well rounded education is becoming worth less and less.
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I think MU should base its reputation on things other than garbage-in, garbage-out USN&WR rankings.
My guess is one of the items Another is arguing that despite the validity of the rankings, they have been bought into as "legitimate" by the public, or some portions of the public. Therefore, not a bad idea to earn as solid a ranking as you can.
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They are equally irrelevant. I pay attention to neither.
Look how many posters do, however? Look at how many start a post on the weekend asking where we will be ranked come Monday morning and then arguing on Monday afternoon that the ranking was somehow a conspiracy against MU?
Just as perspective students and their families who have never sent a kid to college are going to get on the internet to find out how good a school is. They will look for ratings, rankings etc. The schools assist in this by gladly publishing, "hey, we are ranked #75 in the country", etc, etc.
I agree with you Sultan that the rankings leave much to be desired (both AP and USNWR), but I can't ignore that people lock into them all the time. It's easy for me to dispute the AP stuff for basketball, much harder for the USNWR because the criteria used is unknown or not fully defined to the level for a lay person to figure it out. So people give the ratings a lot of credibility.
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My guess is one of the items Another is arguing that despite the validity of the rankings, they have been bought into as "legitimate" by the public, or some portions of the public. Therefore, not a bad idea to earn as solid a ranking as you can.
Here is what Marquette should do. Do the best job it can...and the rankings take care of themselves. No educational institution should play up to them simply because the public has the impression they are somehow legit.
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Here is what Marquette should do. Do the best job it can...and the rankings take care of themselves. No educational institution should play up to them simply because the public has the impression they are somehow legit.
Define doing the best job it can? In what areas? It can do a better job in one area vs another area and get the benefit of the rankings. There is a strategy to all of this. Just as Buzz (and most D1 coaches) know the nuances of scheduling to get a better RPI bump....it impacts how they schedule to receive a better ranking. No different than schools around this country "teaching to the test" to try and increase school test scores. It probably sucks, but that's how it works.
If these ratings systems are so prevalent, we cannot ignore them. As such, I'm actually happy MU is smart enough to understand this. Whether or not they can make inroads in the right ares to impact those ratings remains to be seen.
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If these ratings systems are so prevalent, we cannot ignore them. As such, I'm actually happy MU is smart enough to understand this. Whether or not they can make inroads in the right ares to impact those ratings remains to be seen.
This is an important point. The issue is not should they seek to improve their ratings, but how to go about it and if they actually can.
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Here is what Marquette should do. Do the best job it can...and the rankings take care of themselves. No educational institution should play up to them simply because the public has the impression they are somehow legit.
I agree with Chicos. Simply doing the best you can is not going to improve the school and school rankings as a whole. Some of the school's newer changes have been in the Physical Therapy department and through the Law School which, in turn, you can see are very high on the national rankings. Now with the new Engineering building and Nursing Practical labs, I'm sure those departments will take off higher than they could have by just "doing their best." Arts and Sciences is in the works of designating a new building, too, since they share good ole' Coughlin Hall with a variety of other colleges.
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Define doing the best job it can? In what areas? It can do a better job in one area vs another area and get the benefit of the rankings. There is a strategy to all of this. Just as Buzz (and most D1 coaches) know the nuances of scheduling to get a better RPI bump....it impacts how they schedule to receive a better ranking. No different than schools around this country "teaching to the test" to try and increase school test scores. It probably sucks, but that's how it works.
If these ratings systems are so prevalent, we cannot ignore them. As such, I'm actually happy MU is smart enough to understand this. Whether or not they can make inroads in the right ares to impact those ratings remains to be seen.
But see, playing to USN&WR is a mistake plain and simple. USN&WR makes schools do dumb things. "Exclusivity" scores has them begging for applications even for students they know won't get it...alumni giving rate has schools spend more to try to get every alumnus to give than they actually get in any given appeal...reputation ranking means that schools send their printed material to schools across the country. (I probably get a couple dozen college brag pieces a month.) *This* is what I want MU to avoid.
What MU should do is figure out what programs to emphasize...work with employers and graduate schools on what they want to see from graduates from these programs...recruit faculty to teach and research in those ares....get the students you want...and produce. But all of that does mean more resources.
If you do all of that, you simply let the rankings fall where they may...and things will work out just fine.
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Anyone know what MU's discount is?
And this is what I have been arguing for in many posts in this thread. MU has to continue to give needs based financial assistance and also give money (less tuition) to top applications as well.
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The Wall Street Journal
May 6, 2013, 12:10 a.m. ET.
Colleges Cut Prices by Providing More Financial Aid
By Ruth Simon
Private U.S. colleges, worried they could be pricing themselves out of the market after years of relentless tuition increases, are offering record financial assistance to keep classrooms full.
The average "tuition discount rate"—the reduction off list price afforded by grants and scholarships given by these schools—hit an all-time high of 45% last fall for incoming freshmen, according to a survey being released Monday by the National Association of College and University Business Officers.
"It's a buyer's market" for all but the most select private colleges and flagship public universities, said Jim Scannell, president of Scannell & Kurz, a consulting firm in Pittsford, N.Y., that works with colleges on pricing and financial-aid strategies.
It is likely that some private colleges will be forced to be even more generous with discounts this fall. As of the May 1 deadline for many high-school seniors to commit for their freshman year of college, early reports suggest some non-top-tier schools fell 10% to 20% short of enrollment targets, said Mr. Scannell.
The jump in aid shows that many colleges are losing pricing power as more families focus on cost and value, with about 65% increasing their discount rate in the fall of 2012. Except for the most exclusive schools, private colleges increasingly are vulnerable to the stagnant wages of many families, deepening student debt, the uncertain job market, growing questions about the value of costly four-year degrees and unfavorable demographics.
About one of every eight U.S. undergraduates is enrolled at a private nonprofit college. Such schools provided 70% of all grant aid to undergraduate students in 2009, the most recent year for which data are available, Nacubo says.
The average discount rate at private colleges has climbed for seven years in a row, and the latest increase was smaller than the jump in 2011, said Natalie Pullaro Davis, the study's author. But colleges also are having a tougher time boosting their sticker prices. That makes it harder for colleges to generate enough new revenue to offset the impact of higher aid and their own rising costs.
Because of economic factors and political pressure on colleges to hold the line on tuition, "we have hit a tipping point on price," said John Nelson, managing director at Moody's Investors Service MCO +3.63%. Last year, the median sticker price at about 280 private colleges and universities tracked by the debt-rating firm rose 3.9%, the smallest increase in at least 12 years.
Tuition increases for the 2013-14 year at these schools are likely to be about the same or slightly smaller, Mr. Nelson said.
Meantime, at four-year public colleges and universities, tuition and fees for in-state students rose 4.8% in the 2012-13 academic year, the smallest increase since 2000-01, according to the College Board. Tuition at these schools for out-of-state students rose 4.2%.
The discount rate for public universities fell modestly in 2012, said Mr. Nelson of Moody's, after rising from 2007 to 2011.
Last fall, enrollment fell at 46% of the 383 private colleges in the new Nacubo survey as the pool of high-school seniors declined. John Walda, the group's president, said the financial squeeze from fewer students is forcing such colleges to find ways to boost revenue, control costs and seek a way to stand out from the crowd. Some of those that can't eventually will shrink, merge or fold, he predicted.
Bill Hall, president of Applied Policy Research Inc., said about 10 of the 20 undergraduate colleges he advises on pricing and aid strategies still are scrambling to fill seats for this fall's freshman class. Officials at some schools are asking accepted applicants who haven't said yes or no if "there are financial issues within reason where we can make an adjustment," he said.
Some private colleges are seeing just 20% of the students they accepted actually enrolling, down from about one-third of accepted students five years ago, Mr. Scannell said.
The economic downturn boosted the number of families who qualify for aid. In addition, even those earning too much to demonstrate need under aid formulas "expect to see some sort of merit aid," unless the school is highly selective, said Trey Chappell, a college adviser in Scottsdale, Ariz.
John Ames said the College of Saint Benedict increased his daughter's scholarship to $17,800 from $14,000—and added a $2,800 work award—after he told the St. Joseph, Minn., school about student-athlete awards she had won and a better offer she received from another college. The school's tuition and fees are $37,926 this fall.
"The end result indicates that I had more power than I thought I did," he said, adding that he appreciated the college's "willingness to meet us in the middle."
Saint Benedict's executive director of financial aid, Stuart Perry, said he couldn't discuss individual students. In general, the roughly 2,000-student college makes "a very small number of revisions to academic-based scholarships," typically in response to new information, and revises need-based awards due to changes in a family's financial situation.
Discounting can help private colleges compete against public institutions. Maureen Anderson, who lives in Detroit Lakes, Minn., said a $55,740 scholarship, which covers tuition, fees and certain other expenses, sealed her daughter's decision to attend New York University instead of her other top choice, the University of California, Berkeley, which made her a less-generous offer. NYU's tuition and fees are about $44,800 for the 2013-14 year.
"Money talks," said Ms. Anderson, host of a syndicated radio program. "Many people look to private colleges because they have those pools of money to draw from."
A Berkeley spokeswoman said 40% of undergraduates pay no tuition because of grants and scholarships, while 65% get at least some financial aid.
Some colleges are trying to raise their appeal by experimenting with new pricing. Sewanee, the University of the South in Sewanee, Tenn., cut tuition 10% to $41,500 in the 2011-12 academic year. While it raised it for freshmen arriving this fall to $45,900, it guaranteed that rate for four years.
As part of the new pricing strategy, Sewanee no longer negotiates merit-based scholarships. "Our first offer is our final and best offer," said John McCardell, Sewanee's vice chancellor. "We have deliberately removed ourselves from the bidding wars."
Sewanee's tuition revenue rose $1.5 million to $33.5 million in the current academic year, after a decline of about $920,000 in the first year of the tuition cut.
One reason: Last fall's entering class of 453 students was 13% larger than two years earlier. The applicant pool rose by nearly 500 to roughly 3,400 last year, allowing the school to take more students while being more selective, said Mr. McCardell, who believes publicity surrounding the new pricing played a roll.
Meantime, Sewanee's current tuition discount of 42% is down from 45% before the price cut.
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Let's face it, the strategy as stated could have been shortened to one page - or even one sentence "We're going to keep doing exactly what we're doing because we haven't exerted the time and energy to figure out a case for doing anything different". Yes, I'm an alum. Yes, I enjoyed my time at MU, but c'mon people - expertise in something beyond stagnation is required to become great!
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Let's face it, the strategy as stated could have been shortened to one page - or even one sentence "We're going to keep doing exactly what we're doing because we haven't exerted the time and energy to figure out a case for doing anything different". Yes, I'm an alum. Yes, I enjoyed my time at MU, but c'mon people - expertise in something beyond stagnation is required to become great!
I agree to a point. But there is such a thing as excelling within your various academic disciplines while serving the same type of mission that you always have.
This kind of strikes at the heart of what I think is misguided here. "Being ranked higher by USN&WR" is not necessarily "better." But that doesn't mean stagnation.
They should look at their academic program array. Figure out what they could add, what needs to be modified, and perhaps what needs to be dropped. Make sure what ever programs they offer are relevant to the workforce, and to graduate and professional schools. Survey the recent graduates: Did they enjoy their time at MU? Did they get a job in their current field? Did their MU education prepare them well? Did they get into the graduate/professional school of their choice?
How about retention? Why have people left the school? If it was for academic reasons, how could MU have provided additional help? If they went to another school, why did they do so?
And Dr. Blackheart brought up some good points. What about the next generation of Catholics? What about the Hispanic population that is largely first generation? How can MU reach out to them?
There are hundreds of things that MU can do, and is likely already doing, to improve its product. This is what is so wrong about USN&WR. You don't have to be more "exclusive" to be better. You don't have to increase the reputation in the eyes of some bumf*ck college president in Arkansas to be better. Too many people have bought into these rankings as legitimate measurements of what makes a school good, but in many ways they are just superficial.
Harvard isn't good because they are exclusive. Harvard is good because they produce a good product.
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Anyone know what MU's discount is?
And this is what I have been arguing for in many posts in this thread. MU has to continue to give needs based financial assistance and also give money (less tuition) to top applications as well.
Tuition at Marquette is roughly $33,000 plus another $10,000 for room and board for Frosh/Soph. Everyone that applies to Marquette is automatically applying for an Ignatius scholarship. These scholarships range anywhere from $3,000 per year to $14,000 per year. Marquette also offers many scholarships to students who have come from Jesuit highschools, and offers more financial aid than I can see from other state schools, including Wisconsin and Illinois.
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Marquette needs to focus more on what it's students need in the real world and putting students in a position to get a good job that pays well.
I work for a major global company in Milwaukee and we recruit at the engineering school all the time and I'm one of the liaisons to the school. I interview and talk with MU students constantly and I'm surprised how little the curriculum has changed in the last 10 years. I think the new engineering school is a great start and they are starting to focus more on "real world" problems, but there is still no focus on the business side of engineering or cross functional interactions or project management or a million other things that you need experience with as a real world engineer.
MU has a chance to get ahead of the power curve because I don't see a ton of universities truly preparing their students for success in the corporate world which is where 90% of them are going to have to succeed. Perhaps it's a millennial generation thing, but the number of under prepared college graduates is staggering. If I'm a parent I'm much more interested in a school that is putting my kids on the track to a good career than they one that has the most alumni donations.
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Marquette needs to focus more on what it's students need in the real world and putting students in a position to get a good job that pays well.
I work for a major global company in Milwaukee and we recruit at the engineering school all the time and I'm one of the liaisons to the school. I interview and talk with MU students constantly and I'm surprised how little the curriculum has changed in the last 10 years. I think the new engineering school is a great start and they are starting to focus more on "real world" problems, but there is still no focus on the business side of engineering or cross functional interactions or project management or a million other things that you need experience with as a real world engineer.
MU has a chance to get ahead of the power curve because I don't see a ton of universities truly preparing their students for success in the corporate world which is where 90% of them are going to have to succeed. Perhaps it's a millennial generation thing, but the number of under prepared college graduates is staggering. If I'm a parent I'm much more interested in a school that is putting my kids on the track to a good career than they one that has the most alumni donations.
Exactly! This is exactly what I am talking about. This doesn't mean stagnation, and this won't move MU up any dumb ranking system, but it produces a better product.
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For the record we were tied at #77 when I arrived here as a Freshman now we're #83 four years later. (Get any sarcastic comments about how it was my fault or my class's fault out of the way) I think that we need this plan as this is not a trend that we want to continue, as small as 6 places is.
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For the record we were tied at #77 when I arrived here as a Freshman now we're #83 four years later. (Get any sarcastic comments about how it was my fault or my class's fault out of the way) I think that we need this plan as this is not a trend that we want to continue, as small as 6 places is.
For the last 10 years MU has been between 75 (2005) and 90 (2002). 82 in 2012 and 83 in 2013. And, as noted above, six schools were tied at 77, and MU is tied with 6 schools at 83.
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MU has a chance to get ahead of the power curve because I don't see a ton of universities truly preparing their students for success in the corporate world which is where 90% of them are going to have to succeed. Perhaps it's a millennial generation thing, but the number of under prepared college graduates is staggering. If I'm a parent I'm much more interested in a school that is putting my kids on the track to a good career than they one that has the most alumni donations.
I have a Notre Dame intern (about to be a senior) who is a Electrical Engineer and Marketing student (interesting combo) starting here next week. I'm interested to see how he does.
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Tuition at Marquette is roughly $33,000 plus another $10,000 for room and board for Frosh/Soph. Everyone that applies to Marquette is automatically applying for an Ignatius scholarship. These scholarships range anywhere from $3,000 per year to $14,000 per year. Marquette also offers many scholarships to students who have come from Jesuit highschools, and offers more financial aid than I can see from other state schools, including Wisconsin and Illinois.
Here's the thing about discounting through scholarships. Most schools raise the tuition for full paying students to cover the cost of scholarships. It is a cycle much like our tax systen where eventually more people are getting aid than are paying their share.
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I have a Notre Dame intern (about to be a senior) who is a Electrical Engineer and Marketing student (interesting combo) starting here next week. I'm interested to see how he does.
Great combo!
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There are too many liberal arts universities.
There are too many kids that graduate from these schools and then say, "ok, now what do I do?"
The global economy is becoming more and more specialized. It is very, very difficult to make career changes - you better major in something you are passionate about and that is marketable or you will find yourself getting a masters degree that will do just that. Kids most likely to succeed pick programs or colleges within universities that are very, very good at preparing students for the specific discipline. Unfortunately, not everyone figures it out as an upper classman in h.s.
No kidding.
I took my daughter to look at a well-regarded state university in Illinois last month and was incredibly impressed by the "real world" focus of the university. When we met with representatives of the uiniversity and my daughter's proposed academic discipline, I heard over-and-over about the linkage between the university and its graduates, about the placement capability and the focus on "after college." For a second, I thought I was at Notre Dame!
I don't expect colleges to be technical schools, but when I shell out six figures to educate a child, I want an end game. It's a different world from the 1970s, when Marquette focused on education for knowledge's sake. There is not financial room for a "mistake" or for creating "7-11 Management Trainees" with $160,000 philosophy degrees.
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There are too many liberal arts universities.
There are too many kids that graduate from these schools and then say, "ok, now what do I do?"
The global economy is becoming more and more specialized. It is very, very difficult to make career changes - you better major in something you are passionate about and that is marketable or you will find yourself getting a masters degree that will do just that.
Kids most likely to succeed pick programs or colleges within universities that are very, very good at preparing students for the specific discipline. Unfortunately, not everyone figures it out as an upper classman in h.s.
I don't expect colleges to be technical schools, but when I shell out six figures to educate a child, I want an end game. It's a different world from the 1970s, when Marquette focused on education for knowledge's sake. There is not financial room for a "mistake" or for creating "7-11 Management Trainees" with $160,000 philosophy degrees.
The problem is not too many liberal arts university. Rather their are too many naive parents and students that think getting an esoteric degree from a liberal arts university makes them more marketable in the job market.
So people getting history or philosophy degrees better be looking to get a teaching job (either in HS or a college) and better have a good idea about the marketability of that degree otherwise why are they pursuing it?
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One of the reasons that there are so many liberal arts universities is that people with those skills used to be more marketable than they are now. And its not like there are no opportunities for liberal arts graduates, but they are just very limited.
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Colleges ranked on ROI:
http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2012
Marquette #123. Bucky #150.
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Colleges ranked on ROI:
http://www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2012
Marquette #123. Bucky #150.
In state for Bucky is better: #117
Marquette's #123 is impressive.
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A few pages back someone said we need a niche--dentistry is not sufficient to yield a field of rich alums that we can ask for money/donations. In my opinion, the program that seems to have the most promise is the applied investment management program (AIM) within the finance department within the b-school at MU. Those kids seem to do well in the finance world (NYC and Chicago) and there is already an MU finance alum network in place. Seems like a good place to start.
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A few pages back someone said we need a niche--dentistry is not sufficient to yield a field of rich alums that we can ask for money/donations. In my opinion, the program that seems to have the most promise is the applied investment management program (AIM) within the finance department within the b-school at MU. Those kids seem to do well in the finance world (NYC and Chicago) and there is already an MU finance alum network in place. Seems like a good place to start.
MU is considered a national university. It needs more than one niche. One niche is what liberal arts and/or regional universities have.
That said, you're right about the AIM program. Because of AIM, MU's undergraduate finance program is ranked in the top 20 in the nation. These kids make a ton of money coming out of MU (with nearly 100% placement before graduation day) and are well into six figure salaries by their mid-20s. It is a shining success for the undergraduate business school.
And it's not just NYC and Chicago, some of them are on the west coast and in London.
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That said, you're right about the AIM program. Because of AIM, MU's undergraduate finance program is ranked in the top 20 in the nation. These kids make a ton of money coming out of MU (with nearly 100% placement before graduation day) and are well into six figure salaries by their mid-20s. It is a shining success for the undergraduate business school.
Agreed, that AIM program is top notch. Small sample size but everyone I knew in it during my time there is employed and most are in either New York or Chicago.
I wish Marquette's journalism department would get its act together. It has a tremendous alumni base and does absolutely nothing with it. For a school of this size, to have one or two nationally renowned figures is fantastic, and we have about ten right now. As it relates to sports, when you have the likes of Rushin and Pierce, you have to be able to advertise that and maintain a link. Yet, the sole sports journo class I took was akin to taking a fifth grade writing class.
Missouri and Northwestern have cornered the sports journo market (first thing my boss at FOX Sports did when he had an opening was call Mizzou to see if they had any seniors that might be a good fit), but I still believe the foundation is in place should the college of comm ever open its eyes. Long story short, specialization is key.
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nm
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Two things:
First, for the public university I work for, support from the state of Indiana has decreased from about 40% of our budget in 1990, to less than 20% today. The difference has to some from somewhere...and that somewhere is tuition.
Second, for private schools, focus on what kids actually pay and not the list price.
Figures. The guy who works for a state university and likely has no corporate experience is an expert on corporate America...the profit incentive and need to deliver shareholder value separates the men from the boys.
There were two candidates for Governor of Washington. One started a company, built it up from nothing, struggled to make payroll (went months without paying himself,) created jobs, generated wealth. He built a business and left a legacy. The other candidate was a career government lawyer. She never spent one day in the private sector. Never knew what it meant to make payroll. Had no concept of profit or loss. Of course she won the election but I voted for the guy who earned his way in the world.
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One of the reasons that there are so many liberal arts universities is that people with those skills used to be more marketable than they are now. And its not like there are no opportunities for liberal arts graduates, but they are just very limited.
The opportunities are not limited. The only limitation is the individual. Our son graduated from Middlebury with a degree in Italian language and literature. He worked on Wall Street for Guggenheim for two years before getting his PhD at Columbia. He now teaches university in Firenze. When he was hired at Guggenheim they found his language skills, international upbringing, and liberal arts degree from a little ivy far more attractive than a run of the mill MBA.
Our daughter graduated from Columbia with a degree in English Lit. After matriculation she was hired at the Gates Foundation where she worked on clean water issues in Global Health. She did not have a degree in microbiology or engineering; the Foundation values the total person more than the specific degree. She then went to the Clinton Foundation where she continued work on global health. She is beginning her grad work at the Kennedy School this Fall. Her emphasis will be global health policy but not as a scientist. I would argue her liberal arts education has been very valuable in her work in a scientific field and her course of study at Harvard will continue that liberal arts education.
I would say both these young people were well served by a liberal arts education. That academic foundation combined with their exceptional international perspectives, open minds, and willingness to pursue the difficult has afforded them significant opportunities. These two never saw limitations and leveraged their liberal arts educations into rewarding, interesting lives.
Some people, obviously, do not see the world in the same way and settle for what is comfortable, available, defined, or easy. Unfortunately, these folks let fear, ignorance, or a genuine lack of creativity or perspective dictate the rhythm, tone and tenor of their existences. Others need to be challenged and push themselves to achieve world class excellence. They realize, in a way you likely cannot comprehend, that opportunity must be recognized then earned for it is rarely given.
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The opportunities are not limited. The only limitation is the individual. Our son graduated from Middlebury with a degree in Italian language and literature. He worked on Wall Street for Guggenheim for two years before getting his PhD at Columbia. He now teaches university in Firenze. When he was hired at Guggenheim they found his language skills, international upbringing, and liberal arts degree from a little ivy far more attractive than a run of the mill MBA.
Our daughter graduated from Columbia with a degree in English Lit. After matriculation she was hired at the Gates Foundation where she worked on clean water issues in Global Health. She did not have a degree in microbiology or engineering; the Foundation values the total person more than the specific degree. She then went to the Clinton Foundation where she continued work on global health. She is beginning her grad work at the Kennedy School this Fall. Her emphasis will be global health policy but not as a scientist. I would argue her liberal arts education has been very valuable in her work in a scientific field and her course of study at Harvard will continue that liberal arts education.
I would say both these young people were well served by a liberal arts education. That academic foundation combined with their exceptional international perspectives, open minds, and willingness to pursue the difficult has afforded them significant opportunities. These two never saw limitations and leveraged their liberal arts educations into rewarding, interesting lives.
Some people, obviously, do not see the world in the same way and settle for what is comfortable, available, defined, or easy. Unfortunately, these folks let fear, ignorance, or a genuine lack of creativity or perspective dictate the rhythm, tone and tenor of their existences. Others need to be challenged and push themselves to achieve world class excellence. They realize, in a way you likely cannot comprehend, that opportunity must be recognized then earned for it is rarely given.
These are obviously atypical examples. Anybody can make any path of life seem like the best path if they only cherry-pick the exceptions.
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Figures. The guy who works for a state university and likely has no corporate experience is an expert on corporate America...the profit incentive and need to deliver shareholder value separates the men from the boys.
There were two candidates for Governor of Washington. One started a company, built it up from nothing, struggled to make payroll (went months without paying himself,) created jobs, generated wealth. He built a business and left a legacy. The other candidate was a career government lawyer. She never spent one day in the private sector. Never knew what it meant to make payroll. Had no concept of profit or loss. Of course she won the election but I voted for the guy who earned his way in the world.
You know who makes a terrible politician. A businessman. Government isn't a business.
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You know who makes a terrible politician. A businessman. Government isn't a business.
And those career politicians are doing a great job.
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You know who makes a terrible politician. A businessman. Government isn't a business.
I'm not sure that's fair.
The private sector, in theory, will always produce the most efficient and "best" product/services.
There is nothing wrong with bringing some of those theories to how we manage portions of the government.
Now, is a private businessman ALWAYS better than a career politician? Certainly not. But, some career politicians are really good at getting re-elected, which doesn't mean they are good at their job. It means they are good at getting elected.
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You know who makes a terrible politician. A businessman. Government isn't a business.
Amen to Warriorchick on this one!
Government is a business, whether you want to admit it or not. It manages economic activity by collecting taxes (revenue) and allocating resources (expenses). It's constituency, or stockholders, are the people who elect leaders and its Board of Directors often is out of control.
Nonetheless, if you think government is not a business, take a look at your next paycheck and see how much this "non-business government" takes from you. If you live in Illinois, watch as property taxes rise so much your taxes are the single biggest component to owning your house and you can't afford it as you retire. Oh, and take a good hard look at the $100 billion pension mess we have in our state -- and the massive concessions we have to make to get business (and jobs) to stay here.
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I'm not sure that's fair.
The private sector, in theory, will always produce the most efficient and "best" product/services.
There is nothing wrong with bringing some of those theories to how we manage portions of the government.
Now, is a private businessman ALWAYS better than a career politician? Certainly not. But, some career politicians are really good at getting re-elected, which doesn't mean they are good at their job. It means they are good at getting elected.
Well and who says government shouldn't be more like a business. The main factor about a private business is it needs to adequately service a market to continue remain in existence. Shouldn't that be what government is, servicing a market? Regardless of party who thinks anything about the government is servicing their market?
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And to try to get this back on track before we get to a lock or Nazis....I feel like we've got a lot of good ideas here, how do we get the university to take action on some of them. I feel like the university sends out a lot of surveys and information gathering tools and then proceeds with whatever they were planning anyway. Are they reaching out to industry to see what industry needs? MU is never going to be a huge research facility nor should they IMHO. They should focus on providing students the tools to be wildly successful(leadership) within their chosen profession.
This does two things, provides quantifiable value to potential students and hopefully gives a financial hook for a lot of rich alumni to donate to the university and support a future students.
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Well and who says government shouldn't be more like a business. The main factor about a private business is it needs to adequately service a market to continue remain in existence. Shouldn't that be what government is, servicing a market? Regardless of party who thinks anything about the government is servicing their market?
Some portions should be run more like a business, absolutely.
But, the fundamental goals of private enterprise vs government aren't the same, so it's not really as simple as saying "government should run like a business". That's too simplistic.
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If education were run like a business, its costs would be in line...which isn't even close. Keeping the gravy train rolling has sent things out of whack. Fact is, colleges and universities are in for some very tough years as their consumer face and ability to pay changes drastically in the coming years. Reducing costs for example to shift to more virtual teaching and learning. Widening student based via the web to worldwide, recruitment of Asian students, especially India and China, are all needed to survive.
This chart is damning...
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-08-23/college-tuitions-1-120-percent-increase
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If education were run like a business, its costs would be in line...which isn't even close. Keeping the gravy train rolling has sent things out of whack. Fact is, colleges and universities are in for some very tough years as their consumer face and ability to pay changes drastically in the coming years. Reducing costs for example to shift to more virtual teaching and learning. Widening student based via the web to worldwide, recruitment of Asian students, especially India and China, are all needed to survive.
This chart is damning...
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-08-23/college-tuitions-1-120-percent-increase
Good chart, but I can't help but wonder if it's a result of the coincidental meteoric rise in technology. Arguably, technological advancement happened at about the same time and possibly (and I emphasize possibly) the same rate as the cost of a college education.
I look at this chart and wonder, what drove up the price? Did supply decrease? No, there are probably just as many colleges as there were in, say, '02, if not more. Did demand increase? My bet would be yes because more technology requires a more educated workforce. A point that some emphasize as the (main) cause of any income inequality that we currently have in the US.
Another reason for the extremely drastic change in slope around '02, and also coinciding with the rise of the internet and technology more generally, is the introduction of for-profit colleges. These "schools" brought more demanders into the market for education while charging them outrageously high prices for tuition. I'm not sure how big a factor these for-profit "schools" are in increasing the overall cost of higher education, but my guess is that their effect is nothing to shake a stick at.
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Good chart, but I can't help but wonder if it's a result of the coincidental meteoric rise in technology. Arguably, technological advancement happened at about the same time and possibly (and I emphasize possibly) the same rate as the cost of a college education.
I look at this chart and wonder, what drove up the price? Did supply decrease? No, there are probably just as many colleges as there were in, say, '02, if not more. Did demand increase? My bet would be yes because more technology requires a more educated workforce. A point that some emphasize as the (main) cause of any income inequality that we currently have in the US.
Another reason for the extremely drastic change in slope around '02, and also coinciding with the rise of the internet and technology more generally, is the introduction of for-profit colleges. These "schools" brought more demanders into the market for education while charging them outrageously high prices for tuition. I'm not sure how big a factor these for-profit "schools" are in increasing the overall cost of higher education, but my guess is that their effect is nothing to shake a stick at.
I agree...the market was willing to pay a premium for higher education...but like housing and the financial markets, it was a market based on speculation fueled by the government granting access to easy cash, and no real tangible wealth in kind was generated, and the economy crashed behind it.
The Great Generation returned from war to the GI Bill which allowed the common man access to higher education. This led to the generation of Baby Boomers who are the most educated in history. Who then saved and earned via dual incomes (they were whiter collared parents) for their kids' college. However, in upcoming years, the new generation of college students, who are classified as minorities today, will be the majority. Latinos will be the largest segment of kids under 18 in the not too distant future, a good percent of whose parents are immigrants, and of lower incomes. Asians, especially for higher education, will be a key student group...in some schools today in California, Asians are the majority of students. The ability to pay and the ability to attract/recruit these students are imperatives. And cost control is needed as ability to pay will shrink as the bubble gradually bursts.
On the the other hand, the MU student body looks very similar to when I attended years ago. There is a lot more diversity yes, but the students today are an extension of a parental node. MU really needs to go back and rethink their vision...they are just assuming the market bubble will continue unchanged...and they can continue to get a bit better to what they have always done versus being adaptable while staying within their core mission.
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I think the greatest reason for the dramatic change in slope around '02 was a huge decrease in state government support for higher education.
The reason being that the dramatic decreases in tax revenue left many states holding the bag with a lot of bills to pay and not many good short-term answers. And higher education was one of the few state agencies with an alternative revenue stream...and that is tuition.
If my memory recalls, the State of Indiana decreased support by about $110M in about a two year timeframe during that time...and increased tuition revenue by about $75M.
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Tuition at Marquette is roughly $33,000 plus another $10,000 for room and board for Frosh/Soph. Everyone that applies to Marquette is automatically applying for an Ignatius scholarship. These scholarships range anywhere from $3,000 per year to $14,000 per year. Marquette also offers many scholarships to students who have come from Jesuit highschools, and offers more financial aid than I can see from other state schools, including Wisconsin and Illinois.
Quick comments and a question about scholarships...
As a high school senior, I applied to Marquette where I was accepted and granted an Ignatius scholarship of $6,000 per year and entered into the honors program, despite a mediocre high school GPA. My GPA was somewhat offset by an ACT score in the 95th percentile. I chose to attend UW-Whitewater over Marquette simply because I didn't have the money to pay for Marquette and was intent on graduating college loan-free.
My question is: Does everyone who is accepted into Marquette receive a scholarship of some sort? I've wondered for the past four years what I did to warrant that scholarship.
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And those career politicians are doing a great job.
Bravo!
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If my memory recalls, the State of Indiana decreased support by about $110M in about a two year timeframe during that time...and increased tuition revenue by about $75M.
I love this math. If a business did this the shareholders would be up in arms. The profit motive demands accountability. Civil servants will never understand that.
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I love this math. If a business did this the shareholders would be up in arms. The profit motive demands accountability. Civil servants will never understand that.
Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Explain further?
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Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Explain further?
Revenue Stream A decreases by $110MM.
Revenue Stream B increases by $75MM.
The enterprise has a net reduction in revenue of $35MM. I know how PepsiCo or GE Cap would expect that to be managed. Not sure how a state college in Indiana sees it.
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Well, we had position cuts...many unfilled positions simply weren't filled and a number of people were laid off. This resulted in larger class sizes and other issues.
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Well, we had position cuts...many unfilled positions simply weren't filled and a number of people were laid off. This resulted in larger class sizes and other issues.
At PepsiCo you are expected to deliver a 15% return. Minimum. This is non-negotiable. Not doing so costs you your job. And carved into stone at Purchase, NY is the commitment to Wall Street to double earnings every 5 years. And not being profitable? Nothing loses you your job faster.
GE has a policy of eliminating the bottom 10% of performers every year. A GM who loses money is gone. GE has a rule implemented by Jack Welch. If an enterprise is not the segment leader or does not have a clear plan for becoming so within GE expectations of return then the company exits that business. And people lose their jobs for not performing.
State universities are not profit making enterprises. But they need to be able to deliver a quality product on time and within budget. If a state university offers a product that cannot generate the requisite level of revenue to meet costs, and then cuts the quality of product rather than charge what is necessary to deliver that product, then the enterprise should be deemed non-competitive. (Especially when, despite cuts in quality, the enterprise still loses money!!) And if there is not a financially sound answer for addressing that condition then the enterprise should close.
This is free market capitalism. Asking the tax payers to bail out a school that is not competitive in the market place is ridiculous. The days of subsidizing failure should be over. That is what would happen at PepsiCo. Or GE. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen in the public sector. Hopefully, the taxpayers will rise up and say enough.
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State universities in Indiana have very limited authority to set their own tuition...and at the time it was capped by the state legislature. Furthermore, since financial aid didn't increase at the federal or state level, the idea of raising it further didn't make a lot of sense. You do realize that the reason public universities keep their tuition low is because they get money to subsidize their operations right? It isn't the other way around.
This is what people mean when they say you can't always compare the business world to government. When you have a legislature that mandates a great deal of how you operate, you can only do so much.
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These are obviously atypical examples. Anybody can make any path of life seem like the best path if they only cherry-pick the exceptions.
These are examples of the traditional notion of a classical liberal arts education. You likely have little experience with Wall Street but most houses will hire a lit major from Middlebury or Bowdoin before they hire the finance major from Ball State. It is far from atypical. It is just not typical of your experience.
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At PepsiCo you are expected to deliver a 15% return. Minimum. This is non-negotiable. Not doing so costs you your job. And carved into stone at Purchase, NY is the commitment to Wall Street to double earnings every 5 years. And not being profitable? Nothing loses you your job faster.
GE has a policy of eliminating the bottom 10% of performers every year. A GM who loses money is gone. GE has a rule implemented by Jack Welch. If an enterprise is not the segment leader or does not have a clear plan for becoming so within GE expectations of return then the company exits that business. And people lose their jobs for not performing.
State universities are not profit making enterprises. But they need to be able to deliver a quality product on time and within budget. If a state university offers a product that cannot generate the requisite level of revenue to meet costs, and then cuts the quality of product rather than charge what is necessary to deliver that product, then the enterprise should be deemed non-competitive. (Especially when, despite cuts in quality, the enterprise still loses money!!) And if there is not a financially sound answer for addressing that condition then the enterprise should close.
This is free market capitalism. Asking the tax payers to bail out a school that is not competitive in the market place is ridiculous. The days of subsidizing failure should be over. That is what would happen at PepsiCo. Or GE. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen in the public sector. Hopefully, the taxpayers will rise up and say enough.
The flagship university of my state has basically adopted some sort of business model. We have lots of vice presidents running around and lots of other people with corporate sounding titles. They all make significantly more than the most important people to the university's function, the professors not to mention the grad students who work as slaves. They outsourced the dormitories and are massively expanding the number of students admitted. They do not care about the fact that their graduation rate is horrible. They have it all figured out. Just put as many warm bodies into outsized classes and take their tuition which of course mostly comes from student loans. The fat cats continue to make out like bandits. I really am concerned for the students and the state. I hope you can understand why.
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State universities in Indiana have very limited authority to set their own tuition...and at the time it was capped by the state legislature. Furthermore, since financial aid didn't increase at the federal or state level, the idea of raising it further didn't make a lot of sense. You do realize that the reason public universities keep their tuition low is because they get money to subsidize their operations right? It isn't the other way around.
This is what people mean when they say you can't always compare the business world to government. When you have a legislature that mandates a great deal of how you operate, you can only do so much.
Don't be so obtuse. This is a question of competitiveness. You are confusing the issue with red herrings. If an enterprise requires subsidies to compete then it is not competitive. Think Airbus vs Boeing. In the case you mention, the tax payers of Indiana have a decision. If they choose to continue to subsidize an enterprise that is not competitive they are making a strategic decision. But the enterprise remains non-competitive. In the private sector management answers to shareholders who expect a return. Subsidies are rarely given. In the case of Airbus it is a matter of prestige. There are few other similar examples.
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Don't be so obtuse. This is a question of competitiveness. You are confusing the issue with red herrings. If an enterprise requires subsidies to compete then it is not competitive. Think Airbus vs Boeing. In the case you mention, the tax payers of Indiana have a decision. If they choose to continue to subsidize an enterprise that is not competitive they are making a strategic decision. But the enterprise remains non-competitive. In the private sector management answers to shareholders who expect a return. Subsidies are rarely given. In the case of Airbus it is a matter of prestige. There are few other similar examples.
Really? I'm the one being obtuse?
You simply have no comprehension for how public universities work, are governed and what their missions are. They aren't private companies that receive subsidies....they are state agencies owned by the people of that state and therefore access to their product at a reasonable price is part of what they (rightly) expect.
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The flagship university of my state has basically adopted some sort of business model. We have lots of vice presidents running around and lots of other people with corporate sounding titles. They all make significantly more than the most important people to the university's function, the professors not to mention the grad students who work as slaves. They outsourced the dormitories and are massively expanding the number of students admitted. They do not care about the fact that their graduation rate is horrible. They have it all figured out. Just put as many warm bodies into outsized classes and take their tuition which of course mostly comes from student loans. The fat cats continue to make out like bandits. I really am concerned for the students and the state. I hope you can understand why.
I won't bother to comment on whatever university you reference as you gave zero detail. But I will offer up Marquette as an example of an educational enterprise that cannot rely on tax payer subsidies to the degree that public schools do. Marquette operates within financial parameters that dictate revenues = costs. If this were not the case then Marquette would cease to exist. It is that simple.
State universities have offered lower tuition due to tax payer subsidies. As a parent I was willing to pay private school tuition for 2 of my 3 kids. We assessed the quality of the product to be consistent with market dictates and gladly wrote the checks. As a tax payer, I own homes in WA and WI. I am very unwilling to pay more in taxes to subsidize tuition at UW-Madison, UDub, or Wazzou.
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Really? I'm the one being obtuse?
You simply have no comprehension for how public universities work, are governed and what their missions are. They aren't private companies that receive subsidies....they are state agencies owned by the people of that state and therefore access to their product at a reasonable price is part of what they (rightly) expect.
I absolutely understand the mandate of public universities. But as a tax payer I also do not wish to continue to pour my money into enterprises that do not deliver the return I expect for society.
I do not think that many of the colleges out there are worth the cost. Not everyone is entitled to own a home. And not everyone should be given a subsidized college education. You may disagree but that is a matter of perspective. Frankly, I do not wish to pay for subsidized degrees that really aren't worth that much. As I mentioned earlier, I would take the lit major from Amherst over the finance major from Ball State every time.
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These are examples of the traditional notion of a classical liberal arts education. You likely have little experience with Wall Street but most houses will hire a lit major from Middlebury or Bowdoin before they hire the finance major from Ball State. It is far from atypical. It is just not typical of your experience.
It is absolutely atypical of most of those who receive liberal arts degrees.
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Quick comments and a question about scholarships...
As a high school senior, I applied to Marquette where I was accepted and granted an Ignatius scholarship of $6,000 per year and entered into the honors program, despite a mediocre high school GPA. My GPA was somewhat offset by an ACT score in the 95th percentile. I chose to attend UW-Whitewater over Marquette simply because I didn't have the money to pay for Marquette and was intent on graduating college loan-free.
My question is: Does everyone who is accepted into Marquette receive a scholarship of some sort? I've wondered for the past four years what I did to warrant that scholarship.
Not necessarily everyone gets a scholarship. You can get scholarships in form of merit aid and or need based aid. The Ignatius scholarship (and Magis) is merit aid and it is available to everyone that submits an application. Essentally it depends on the credentials of the pool of applicants. Consideration includes GPA, SAT or ACT scores, community service, and leadership. You probably got the $6,000.00 due to the high ACT and maybe you had good community service and leadership positions in highschool. The Ignatius scholarship is guaranteed for 4 years as long as the student remains in good standing in their college.
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Not necessarily everyone gets a scholarship. You can get scholarships in form of merit aid and or need based aid. The Ignatius scholarship (and Magis) is merit aid and it is available to everyone that submits an application. Essentally it depends on the credentials of the pool of applicants. Consideration includes GPA, SAT or ACT scores, community service, and leadership. You probably got the $6,000.00 due to the high ACT and maybe you had good community service and leadership positions in highschool. The Ignatius scholarship is guaranteed for 4 years as long as the student remains in good standing in their college.
To follow-up. Merit based schollys are the tool of competition for private universities today. Such was seemingly not the case 30 years ago when I attended. What this really means is that places like Marquette have students paying over a fairly wide spectrum from the full 'rack rate' to a scholly that approaches about 30-40% of tuition except for those very small handful of full ride opportunities. I don't have the statistics to directly support this but I do believe that a decent plurality get some amount of merit based aid. (My guess is the median Ignatius scholly is around $3,000 per year.) But to be near the top of the curve (like $12,000-$14,000 per year) one needs to be a borderline elite student with a 4.0+ GPA built on AP courses and an ACT well into the 30s.
One other note. Other comparable universities routinely offered modestly more to my kids than MU was able to muster in its offer. It's not that they saw either prospective candidate differently. MU's endowment is simply a limiting factor in my view.
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You know who makes a terrible politician. A businessman. Government isn't a business.
Which is a big reason why it is so incredibly f'd up.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that gov't has to do that isn't going to correlate to a business, but much of that is because we have allowed gov't to get involved in things they never used to be involved in.
Very little accountability, costs be damned, and promises to certain groups to keep the gravy train chugging along means we get what we get
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To follow-up. Merit based schollys are the tool of competition for private universities today. Such was seemingly not the case 30 years ago when I attended. What this really means is that places like Marquette have students paying over a fairly wide spectrum from the full 'rack rate' to a scholly that approaches about 30-40% of tuition except for those very small handful of full ride opportunities. I don't have the statistics to directly support this but I do believe that a decent plurality get some amount of merit based aid. (My guess is the median Ignatius scholly is around $3,000 per year.) But to be near the top of the curve (like $12,000-$14,000 per year) one needs to be a borderline elite student with a 4.0+ GPA built on AP courses and an ACT well into the 30s.
One other note. Other comparable universities routinely offered modestly more to my kids than MU was able to muster in its offer. It's not that they saw either prospective candidate differently. MU's endowment is simply a limiting factor in my view.
You are basically spot on on merit competition amongst private universities except the top 25 to 30 do not give merit aid only need based aid. Although some will consider families that earn up to like 125K for need aid if they really want the students. Regarding MU's Ignatius S got 12K with GPA of 3.90. D got 13k with GPA of 3.97. S went to MU D got accepted and chose a top school in the field she was interested in. the school is notoriously stingy with merit aid but they offered her 1/2 tuition based on merit aid so I guess they really wanted her.
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It is absolutely atypical of most of those who receive liberal arts degrees.
It is atypical in your world.
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Which is a big reason why it is so incredibly f'd up.
Don't get me wrong, there are things that gov't has to do that isn't going to correlate to a business, but much of that is because we have allowed gov't to get involved in things they never used to be involved in.
Very little accountability, costs be damned, and promises to certain groups to keep the gravy train chugging along means we get what we get
Why govt is involved in so many activities is beyond me. Thomas Jefferson is spinning in his grave.
"A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circlue of our felicities."
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It is atypical in your world.
I think it depends on a lot of things. I'm a perfect example of what you stated earlier. Liberal arts degree with political science and history and currently responsible for about $3 billion in business per year. Only one person on my team has a MBA, though several of us have masters degrees in other areas. All went to solid schools. I would say that it took a lot of years and proven track record to get there where in other departments a certain degree will get you into the door quicker. Some departments pretty much 100% of the folks have an MBA or some type skilled degree (finance, accounting, etc) that is more in demand. I have definitely noticed in the last few years some departments won't consider anyone without a certain degree and that didn't used to be the case.
Our department is a bit different. My philosophy has been to hire good people, critical thinkers, people that make smart and common sense decisions. If they were an English major, so be it as long as they are capable people. Sometimes certain folks are a bit too myopic based on their core competencies and that isn't always what you need, at least in my field. If I need high powered analytics or financial gurus, then I'll call on those other departments that specialize in those areas to get involved. We may be the exception, but we certainly have a number of liberal arts folks in our department with a more "generalist" approach and we have done well in the businesses we run. Stock all-time high today. Been a crazy run....won't last forever but we'll make a go of it.
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Why govt is involved in so many activities is beyond me. Thomas Jefferson is spinning in his grave.
"A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circlue of our felicities."
Power. Get a lot of people to rely on you for just about everything, and you get what you get. The more folks you get, the more power is accumulated. TJ isn't the only one....the teets for suckling are moist with dollars, it won't be changing anytime soon. It's a new normal.
(http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/media/blogs/blog/39/jefferson-art39.jpg) (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DQsJq4turdY/Ts2dkRgW_eI/AAAAAAAAAWs/cHuZbhIK3zY/s400/kennedy%2Bspinning%2Bin%2Bgrave.jpg)
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I think it depends on a lot of things. I'm a perfect example of what you stated earlier. Liberal arts degree with political science and history and currently responsible for about $3 billion in business per year. Only one person on my team has a MBA, though several of us have masters degrees in other areas. All went to solid schools. I would say that it took a lot of years and proven track record to get there where in other departments a certain degree will get you into the door quicker. Some departments pretty much 100% of the folks have an MBA or some type skilled degree (finance, accounting, etc) that is more in demand. I have definitely noticed in the last few years some departments won't consider anyone without a certain degree and that didn't used to be the case.
Our department is a bit different. My philosophy has been to hire good people, critical thinkers, people that make smart and common sense decisions. If they were an English major, so be it as long as they are capable people. Sometimes certain folks are a bit too myopic based on their core competencies and that isn't always what you need, at least in my field. If I need high powered analytics or financial gurus, then I'll call on those other departments that specialize in those areas to get involved. We may be the exception, but we certainly have a number of liberal arts folks in our department with a more "generalist" approach and we have done well in the businesses we run. Stock all-time high today. Been a crazy run....won't last forever but we'll make a go of it.
Chico, you know what works in the private sector because you have significant experience in the corporate world. Not everyone has that perspective yet they feel competent to comment. The hubris is what is really most shocking.
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Power. Get a lot of people to rely on you for just about everything, and you get what you get. The more folks you get, the more power is accumulated. TJ isn't the only one....the teets for suckling are moist with dollars, it won't be changing anytime soon. It's a new normal.
(http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/media/blogs/blog/39/jefferson-art39.jpg) (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DQsJq4turdY/Ts2dkRgW_eI/AAAAAAAAAWs/cHuZbhIK3zY/s400/kennedy%2Bspinning%2Bin%2Bgrave.jpg)
Anyone familiar with Tacitus or Suetonius would fear what has become of our government in less than a century. De Viris Illustribus and De Vita Caesarum are compelling reads with insight for today. George Santayana warned in Reason in Common Sense, The Life of Reason, Vol. 1, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
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We already subsidize high schools and elementary schools, why is college the magic cut-off?
Colleges attract people from out of state, they provide jobs and they have a big economic impact. Ask La Crosse,Whitewater or Eau Claire where they would be without the college(s).
Also, having a state with only private schools would probably greatly limit the qualified graduates/applicants/workers in the state and ultimately lead to businesses leaving or not even starting in (insert state).
I'm not in favor of frivolous government handouts, but I think investing in secondary education is worthwhile.
Also, MU is "subsidized" through donations. It's not truly run like a for-profit business.
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I'd like to high five you two on your circle jerk. It is truly impressive. I'm going to refrain from responding directly to your posts since I'm sure you two have politicized this thread enough, and if I joined in I'm sure the thread would get locked rather quickly.
Suffice to say, that I disagree with both of your simplifying it all.
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It is atypical in your world.
No, it is atypical of the world at large. Your wonderful, fantastic, God-on-the-face-of-the-earth kids are the ones who are the exception. And of course they are...they're keefe's kids!!! Honestly, I am simply blessed to share this mortal coil with them.
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I'd like to high five you two on your circle jerk. It is truly impressive. I'm going to refrain from responding directly to your posts since I'm sure you two have politicized this thread enough, and if I joined in I'm sure the thread would get locked rather quickly.
Suffice to say, that I disagree with both of your simplifying it all.
+1 to this.
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I think it depends on a lot of things. I'm a perfect example of what you stated earlier. Liberal arts degree with political science and history and currently responsible for about $3 billion in business per year. Only one person on my team has a MBA, though several of us have masters degrees in other areas. All went to solid schools. I would say that it took a lot of years and proven track record to get there where in other departments a certain degree will get you into the door quicker. Some departments pretty much 100% of the folks have an MBA or some type skilled degree (finance, accounting, etc) that is more in demand. I have definitely noticed in the last few years some departments won't consider anyone without a certain degree and that didn't used to be the case.
Our department is a bit different. My philosophy has been to hire good people, critical thinkers, people that make smart and common sense decisions. If they were an English major, so be it as long as they are capable people. Sometimes certain folks are a bit too myopic based on their core competencies and that isn't always what you need, at least in my field. If I need high powered analytics or financial gurus, then I'll call on those other departments that specialize in those areas to get involved. We may be the exception, but we certainly have a number of liberal arts folks in our department with a more "generalist" approach and we have done well in the businesses we run. Stock all-time high today. Been a crazy run....won't last forever but we'll make a go of it.
This is spot on. I think too many people fool themselves into thinking that their area of expertise is far more technical than it actually is and thus they feel that they need to hire people who majored in that field, which is simply not the case. I feel this is especially the case in the business world. Aside from jobs in analytics and accounting, I don't think you really need a specialized degree to do work in the other fields. That is to say, I believe that, generally speaking, a philosophy major is just as prepared (if not more so) as a marketing major to do the job on day one.
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We already subsidize high schools and elementary schools, why is college the magic cut-off?
Colleges attract people from out of state, they provide jobs and they have a big economic impact. Ask La Crosse,Whitewater or Eau Claire where they would be without the college(s).
Also, having a state with only private schools would probably greatly limit the qualified graduates/applicants/workers in the state and ultimately lead to businesses leaving or not even starting in (insert state).
I'm not in favor of frivolous government handouts, but I think investing in secondary education is worthwhile.
Also, MU is "subsidized" through donations. It's not truly run like a for-profit business.
And to paraphrase warriorchick, look how well public education is working out.
Public education in this country is a disaster. K-12 is a failure and we have overbuilt both community colleges and 4 year schools. We subsidize mediocrity. Frankly, many of the graduates of some of these state "universities" are not near the caliber of what truly merits the title university graduate.
This is not to say public universities are not effective. Flagship universities offer the public a cost effective opportunity which is a great thing. But we not need as many campuses as we now have. The excess capacity has diluted the quality. I believe we need a University of Michigan. I am not as certain we need an Eastern Michigan.
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I believe we need a University of Michigan. I am not as certain we need an Eastern Michigan.
That's actually an interesting point. Never thought about it.
So it's not school subsidies you are against, it's that there are too many universities?
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I believe we need a University of Michigan. I am not as certain we need an Eastern Michigan.
but then where would th Deja Vu in Yipsilati get their dancers from?
Bring back FFP
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That's actually an interesting point. Never thought about it.
So it's not school subsidies you are against, it's that there are too many universities?
Correct. Land Grant universities have played a crucial role in advancing American culture and society. But the diminution in quality from flagships to branch campuses is staggering. And to ask already over burdened tax payers to continue to subsidize mediocrity is an outrage.
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That's actually an interesting point. Never thought about it.
So it's not school subsidies you are against, it's that there are too many universities?
Read Matthew Arnold, Culture and Anarchy. His thinking on this is incisive.
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I'd like to high five you two on your circle jerk. It is truly impressive. I'm going to refrain from responding directly to your posts since I'm sure you two have politicized this thread enough, and if I joined in I'm sure the thread would get locked rather quickly.
Suffice to say, that I disagree with both of your simplifying it all.
Brevity does not equal simplifying. I would welcome a full dialogue with you on this or any other topic. We could hold it in Seattle where you would enjoy a decided home court advantage. perhaps Jim McDermott or Maria Cantwell could moderate? Well, moderate is not quite correct....uh, host, shall we say?
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Correct. Land Grant universities have played a crucial role in advancing American culture and society. But the diminution in quality from flagships to branch campuses is staggering. And to ask already over burdened tax payers to continue to subsidize mediocrity is an outrage.
Just to carry this out... what you are suggesting is basically abolishing a large number of universities, leading to less college graduates, right?
Certainly there will be more competition for the remaining spots at the remaining schools, and some new private schools may even pop up to fill the void (Free market, hooray!). But, how long will that take for all of this to equalize? 10 years? 20 years?
It's a global economy now, so I'm not sure that American could sustain losing that many college grads, could it?
To put it another way, I do think the government spends too much money. I'm not sure I'd put secondary education high on that list. Probably other things I would chase first.
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Just to carry this out... what you are suggesting is basically abolishing a large number of universities, leading to less college graduates, right?
Certainly there will be more competition for the remaining spots at the remaining schools, and some new private schools may even pop up to fill the void (Free market, hooray!). But, how long will that take for all of this to equalize? 10 years? 20 years?
It's a global economy now, so I'm not sure that American could sustain losing that many college grads, could it?
To put it another way, I do think the government spends too much money. I'm not sure I'd put secondary education high on that list. Probably other things I would chase first.
It would be great if everyone could get a proper college education but the fact is that there are huge qualitative differences in degrees. And not everyone can or should get one - whether for reasons of financial or intellectual ability. There are huge qualitative differences in college grads and the school listed on the resume is a superb barometer of the quality of the individual behind the paper.
It is a global economy but I am not convinced that losing thousands of Platteville, IUIPUI, or Sam Houston State grads will hinder American innovation, creativity, and global competitiveness. Personally, rather than continue to churn out mediocre high school graduates who continue on to mediocre colleges I would rather we focus on fixing the problems upstream. because that is where the real issues are resident.
I spent most of my life in Asia. I went to Japanese schools for grade school before attending an international school for 6-8. My kids attended international schools, Japanese grade school, and English Foundation schools. I can tell you from that experience our schools are far, far behind. Japanese students begin algebra in 4th year. American kids get it as Freshmen and even then it is not a core requirement. Kids in Asia communicate crisply and effectively and are conversant in their cultural heritage. Their hard science and maths curricula put us to shame.
Global competitiveness is being won in the classroom in grade school. Kids in Asia attend, listen, obey. They study hard and have respect for their teachers. They are challenged in grade school with material American students begin in HS, if at all. There is a reason Seattle and Silicon Valley is filled with Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Singaporeans and Indians on H1B's. As Bill Gates told Congress it is because American schools are failing.
Rather than continue to invest in mediocre colleges I would rather fix what is not happening years before. If second and third tier schools have a place then they need to discontinue relying on tax payer funding and to determine a market-based price:value construct. These schools churn out grads who are unworthy of the sobriquet. As the adage goes, you can buff a turd only so far...
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It would be great if everyone could get a proper college education but the fact is that there are huge qualitative differences in degrees. And not everyone can or should get one - whether for reasons of financial or intellectual ability. There are huge qualitative differences in college grads and the school listed on the resume is a superb barometer of the quality of the individual behind the paper.
It is a global economy but I am not convinced that losing thousands of Platteville, IUIPUI, or Sam Houston State grads will hinder American innovation, creativity, and global competitiveness. Personally, rather than continue to churn out mediocre high school graduates who continue on to mediocre colleges I would rather we focus on fixing the problems upstream. because that is where the real issues are resident.
I spent most of my life in Asia. I went to Japanese schools for grade school before attending an international school for 6-8. My kids attended international schools, Japanese grade school, and English Foundation schools. I can tell you from that experience our schools are far, far behind. Japanese students begin algebra in 4th year. American kids get it as Freshmen and even then it is not a core requirement. Kids in Asia communicate crisply and effectively and are conversant in their cultural heritage. Their hard science and maths curricula put us to shame.
Global competitiveness is being won in the classroom in grade school. Kids in Asia attend, listen, obey. They study hard and have respect for their teachers. They are challenged in grade school with material American students begin in HS, if at all. There is a reason Seattle and Silicon Valley is filled with Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Singaporeans and Indians on H1B's. As Bill Gates told Congress it is because American schools are failing.
Rather than continue to invest in mediocre colleges I would rather fix what is not happening years before. If second and third tier schools have a place then they need to discontinue relying on tax payer funding and to determine a market-based price:value construct. These schools churn out grads who are unworthy of the sobriquet. As the adage goes, you can buff a turd only so far...
+1000
Dumping a bunch of lower tired colleges will force an improvement in high schools.
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A few thoughts:
**I agree wholeheartedly that there are too many kids at four year schools and that the number of public, comprehensive schools should be decreased. But IMO that means that you have make sure you have plenty of access at the tech school level.
**Most of the public high school teachers in this country are from the comprehensive public universities. If you are going to improve K-12 education, this is where you have to start a great deal of that process.
**A lot of these ideas may make sense when you look at the whole of society, but America is a country that gives people multiple chances to succeed. There are many, many graduates of comprehensive public universities that came to school as first-generation students that didn't have much idea with what to do with life, but it was those experiences at school that started them down that path. People like that still need access to higher education.
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A few thoughts:
**I agree wholeheartedly that there are too many kids at four year schools and that the number of public, comprehensive schools should be decreased. But IMO that means that you have make sure you have plenty of access at the tech school level.
**Most of the public high school teachers in this country are from the comprehensive public universities. If you are going to improve K-12 education, this is where you have to start a great deal of that process.
**A lot of these ideas may make sense when you look at the whole of society, but America is a country that gives people multiple chances to succeed. There are many, many graduates of comprehensive public universities that came to school as first-generation students that didn't have much idea with what to do with life, but it was those experiences at school that started them down that path. People like that still need access to higher education.
I have long favored something similar to the European O-level/A-level or Realschule/Gymnasium system. Not everyone needs to go to university but there is a need for an attendant technical training track. O-Level/Realschule students begin vocational training far earlier (age 12) and begin full time apprenticeships at 16.
A similar system exists in Asia where students are streamed according to interest and ability. Japanese industry has benefited from skilled technicians who graduate from vocational track schools that still require calculus and physics to graduate; this model has been adopted throughout Asia. Juran commented that a crucial reason his and Demming's models worked so well in the Japanese Kanban system was the academic preparation of the Japanese worker to perform in a post-industrial environment.
As for expanded opportunity, I might suggest that if we had a true vocational track as does the rest of the developed world we could accommodate everyone with a desire to learn a trade, skill, or vocation. Not everyone needs to attend Cornell's School for Hotel Administration to work in hospitality. Kids could begin internships at 12 then apprentice at 16. Not all coders or developers need to study Computer Engineering at MIT, Cal, or Michigan but they can begin programming at 12.
And the O-Level/Realschule infrastructure could be leveraged into continuing education and Re-Training platforms to accommodate changes in industrial base, technology, or simple change of personal career interest. Today, those post graduation models lack professional standards and vary widely in quality.
I agree public unis will always produce the bulk of high school teachers but I think we lost something when we went from the Normal Schools to training teachers in what are less focused general education colleges. And a student improperly prepared in high school then educated in a mediocre college will be a sub-standard teacher.
Teacher training in Europe and Asia is materially different and the starting point is that education is a respected profession. Teacher salaries in Japan and Singapore are commensurate with the other professions. Teacher compensation is competitive with general practice physicians in both societies (in part through housing, transportation, and food allowances.) Compare that with the status and pay of teachers in the US and you can see why we there is a material difference. I believe elevating teaching as a profession is a critical component of improving education in this country. Teachers in Singapore spend 8 years in university training before being given a classroom. Competition for placement at the Teaching College of National University of Singapore is keen and teachers have more than a Masters when they are graduated. Teachers are given housing, transport, all-expense paid vacations that double as continuing education, etc...
One could argue that we cannot afford to do this. I will argue that we cannot afford to not do it. Teaching is not seen as a profession in this country. Improve the training and compensate accordingly.
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It would be great if everyone could get a proper college education but the fact is that there are huge qualitative differences in degrees. And not everyone can or should get one - whether for reasons of financial or intellectual ability. There are huge qualitative differences in college grads and the school listed on the resume is a superb barometer of the quality of the individual behind the paper.
It is a global economy but I am not convinced that losing thousands of Platteville, IUIPUI, or Sam Houston State grads will hinder American innovation, creativity, and global competitiveness. Personally, rather than continue to churn out mediocre high school graduates who continue on to mediocre colleges I would rather we focus on fixing the problems upstream. because that is where the real issues are resident.
I spent most of my life in Asia. I went to Japanese schools for grade school before attending an international school for 6-8. My kids attended international schools, Japanese grade school, and English Foundation schools. I can tell you from that experience our schools are far, far behind. Japanese students begin algebra in 4th year. American kids get it as Freshmen and even then it is not a core requirement. Kids in Asia communicate crisply and effectively and are conversant in their cultural heritage. Their hard science and maths curricula put us to shame.
Global competitiveness is being won in the classroom in grade school. Kids in Asia attend, listen, obey. They study hard and have respect for their teachers. They are challenged in grade school with material American students begin in HS, if at all. There is a reason Seattle and Silicon Valley is filled with Chinese, Japanese, Taiwanese, Singaporeans and Indians on H1B's. As Bill Gates told Congress it is because American schools are failing.
Rather than continue to invest in mediocre colleges I would rather fix what is not happening years before. If second and third tier schools have a place then they need to discontinue relying on tax payer funding and to determine a market-based price:value construct. These schools churn out grads who are unworthy of the sobriquet. As the adage goes, you can buff a turd only so far...
I agree with 99% of this, but Platteville is a poor example. They have a respected engineering program, as well as decent business and nursing programs. I'm originally from a nearby town and several of my friends have attended/graduated from their engineering school, then proceeded on to very respectable careers. A better example might be the 2 year schools in the UW system. I personally know a guy who graduated high school with 2.5 GPA, scored a 19 on his ACT, and still got into one of those schools. Sadly, due to guaranteed transfer he was able to get into UW-Milwaukee which he proceeded to flunk out of.
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Those two year schools are designed specifically with those types of students in mind.
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I agree with 99% of this, but Platteville is a poor example. They have a respected engineering program, as well as decent business and nursing programs. I'm originally from a nearby town and several of my friends have attended/graduated from their engineering school, then proceeded on to very respectable careers. A better example might be the 2 year schools in the UW system. I personally know a guy who graduated high school with 2.5 GPA, scored a 19 on his ACT, and still got into one of those schools. Sadly, due to guaranteed transfer he was able to get into UW-Milwaukee which he proceeded to flunk out of.
I am not that familiar with Platteville other than it is a funny name and it gave us Bo Ryan. One thing I might add is that there are fine students at all schools but, taken as a whole, there are many students who really should not be in university.
The explosion in college seats started in the 60's as part of Johnson's Great Society. Fact is, the notion that everyone must go to college is as bona fide as the efficacy of public housing. (If you need elaboration take a drive through Anacostia and SE DC though not at night...)
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Those two year schools are designed specifically with those types of students in mind.
And to our respective points, would not these students be better served honing practical skills in a structured vocational track rather than wasting two years getting a meaningless Associate's Degree in Marketing?
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And to our respective points, would not these students be better served honing practical skills in a structured vocational track rather than wasting two years getting a meaningless Associate's Degree in Marketing?
Very likely yes.
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Power. Get a lot of people to rely on you for just about everything, and you get what you get. The more folks you get, the more power is accumulated. TJ isn't the only one....the teets for suckling are moist with dollars, it won't be changing anytime soon. It's a new normal.
(http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/media/blogs/blog/39/jefferson-art39.jpg) (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DQsJq4turdY/Ts2dkRgW_eI/AAAAAAAAAWs/cHuZbhIK3zY/s400/kennedy%2Bspinning%2Bin%2Bgrave.jpg)
I cannot help but laugh aloud every time I see the photo of the Kennedy Camper. Thank God we have the Jim McDermott's, Patty Murray's, and Maria Cantwell's to ensure his rights are served.
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but then where would th Deja Vu in Yipsilati get their dancers from?
Bring back FFP
What is the correlation between EMU coeds dancing at Deja Vu in Ypsi and Marquette bringing back FFP?
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The Vu is just up the road from ND. Just take M60 north through Edwardswurg, and you arent far from....a few ND grads :)
Speaking of Edwardsburg, home of Lunkers. Great bait and tackle shop.
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look at NW Wisconsin for an example of too many schools in a close proximity. Stout, River falls and Eau Claire(?) are within something like 25 miles of each other.
Stout gets a bad rap--when it doubt....---, but it really is Wisconsin Tech (ala Virginia Tech).
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Zig,
Uwec is a very good school. Not easy to get into.
Stout has some good, well recruited programs.
UWRF, same story.
Might as well throw in UWS too.
Just happen to know a UWS grad who became pres of a very big company.
Not trying to bag on you.....lots of smaller UW....who have produced top notch citizens and leaders. Too bad they got lousy BBall teams. ;D
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look at NW Wisconsin for an example of too many schools in a close proximity. Stout, River falls and Eau Claire(?) are within something like 25 miles of each other.
Stout gets a bad rap--when it doubt....---, but it really is Wisconsin Tech (ala Virginia Tech).
You can major in Welding Technology at Stout. Sounds like the ITT Tech of the UW System.
Looking at the curriculum confirms this should not be a 4 year university. And that the Wisconsin tax payers, already howling in pain, have to pay for 3 separate University infrastructures within a 25 mile foot print is an outrage. The private sector would look at this and say this is fixed cost leverage screaming to happen. How brutally stupid.
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look at NW Wisconsin for an example of too many schools in a close proximity. Stout, River falls and Eau Claire(?) are within something like 25 miles of each other.
Stout gets a bad rap--when it doubt....---, but it really is Wisconsin Tech (ala Virginia Tech).
Not really. Stout does not have a full engineering curriculum. The closest thing to Virginia Tech in Wisconsin is actually UW-Madison. Both Stout and Platteville have some engineering programs, but are more like amped up technology programs.
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look at NW Wisconsin for an example of too many schools in a close proximity. Stout, River falls and Eau Claire(?) are within something like 25 miles of each other.
Stout gets a bad rap--when it doubt....---, but it really is Wisconsin Tech (ala Virginia Tech).
You guys are missing that these schools aren't set up to serve WI, necessarily... Due to tuition reciprocity and proximity, a really good percentage of students are middle of the graduating class from MN. The Twin Cities have sprawled so much that River Falls is a suburb (a ton of kids live at home in the east metro and commute to RF), and Stout/UWEC are perfect suitcase distance.
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And to our respective points, would not these students be better served honing practical skills in a structured vocational track rather than wasting two years getting a meaningless Associate's Degree in Marketing?
Plus one quadrillion!
In my opinion, vocational programs and trade schools have a social stigma to them. It is widely believed that knowledge-how is inferior to knowledge-that--practical knowledge< factual knowledge and I wish this perception would change.
I get that we are a service-oriented economy, but it is my understanding that there are job openings for positions like machinists in places like south carolina and mississippi where labor is relatively cheap. However, these positions go unfilled because there is a lack of qualified individuals. Why? I think it's partly because people don't think that you can make a living going into such a blue collar profession, which is simply not the case. Or they feel that it is not prestigious, or both.
The unemployment rate is high, yet every month there are millions of jobs that are created. Part of this structural mismatch could be remedied if high school guidance counselors and the like would push those 2.5gpa (with a low standard deviation) 19ACT kids toward respectable careers in something practical like high end manufacturing or a technical skill like auto-repair, plumbing, etc.
I remember reading Ivan Illich (Deschooling Society) when I flirted with libertarianism as an undergrad and that guy had some pretty interesting ideas with respect to education reform (eg cutting compulsory education at like 8th [10th?] grade and give people education credits to use at government-run training centers, if I remember correctly).
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Zig,
Uwec is a very good school. Not easy to get into.
Stout has some good, well recruited programs.
UWRF, same story.
Might as well throw in UWS too.
Just happen to know a UWS grad who became pres of a very big company.
Not trying to bag on you.....lots of smaller UW....who have produced top notch citizens and leaders. Too bad they got lousy BBall teams. ;D
Not bagging on the schools. Just sayin it's dumb to have 3 schools so close together.
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Not bagging on the schools. Just sayin it's dumb to have 3 schools so close together.
Interestingly enough, all three schools have wait lists.
Like someone else said in an earlier post, these schools main market is the Twin Cities. They are under an hour away.
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Plus one quadrillion!
In my opinion, vocational programs and trade schools have a social stigma to them. It is widely believed that knowledge-how is inferior to knowledge-that--practical knowledge< factual knowledge and I wish this perception would change.
I get that we are a service-oriented economy, but it is my understanding that there are job openings for positions like machinists in places like south carolina and mississippi where labor is relatively cheap. However, these positions go unfilled because there is a lack of qualified individuals. Why? I think it's partly because people don't think that you can make a living going into such a blue collar profession, which is simply not the case. Or they feel that it is not prestigious, or both.
The unemployment rate is high, yet every month there are millions of jobs that are created. Part of this structural mismatch could be remedied if high school guidance counselors and the like would push those 2.5gpa (with a low standard deviation) 19ACT kids toward respectable careers in something practical like high end manufacturing or a technical skill like auto-repair, plumbing, etc.
I remember reading Ivan Illich (Deschooling Society) when I flirted with libertarianism as an undergrad and that guy had some pretty interesting ideas with respect to education reform (eg cutting compulsory education at like 8th [10th?] grade and give people education credits to use at government-run training centers, if I remember correctly).
Illich's thoughts on vocational training is a primer for implementing a deregulated Realschule system. His views were in some ways Marxist (I have long wondered how a Catholic priest could profess Marxism but that is another discussion) but at its heart were Anarchistic. Illich argued that it was not just the means of production but the actual ability to participate that was controlled by technocratic elites. Elites serve as gate keeper for a number of verticals including ag, manufacturing, etc... and institutionalized education served as a tool of repression. He sought localized education that relied on social networks...essentially people would apprentice under artisans to learn the practical skills necessary for society to function. And there was social and economic fluidity so that one could master baking bread then, later in life, learn to become an electrician.
An excellent critique of effective educational systems is Linda Darling-Hammond's, The Flat World and Education. She surveys successful educational models from around the world and notes that the very best share two things: teacher training aims at creating Subject Matter Experts rather than immersing them in meaningless "theories of teaching." Teachers spend 6-8 years to master their area of expertise and are paid far better than in the US model.
Second, the best systems are based on demanding curricula focused on the arts and sciences. In every single case, successful systems do not use standardized tests and other ridiculous mechanisms that are supposed to deliver accountability. She notes that US teachers are expected to teach the test (in WA State that would be the WASL) which fails every constituency. Students do not learn, teachers do not teach, and society suffers in the end. But administrators sit back and point with pride to outstanding results on standardized tests.
How did we get here? Can you spell N E A?
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You guys are missing that these schools aren't set up to serve WI, necessarily... Due to tuition reciprocity and proximity, a really good percentage of students are middle of the graduating class from MN. The Twin Cities have sprawled so much that River Falls is a suburb (a ton of kids live at home in the east metro and commute to RF), and Stout/UWEC are perfect suitcase distance.
So the taxpayers of Wisconsin are subsidizing 3 branch campuses of the U of Minn. I am glad I don't pay taxes in WI.
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So the taxpayers of Wisconsin are subsidizing 3 branch campuses of the U of Minn. I am glad I don't pay taxes in WI.
There's a proposal now to end reciprocity with MN for in state tuition.
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There's a proposal now to end reciprocity with MN for in state tuition.
Might as well close up River Falls and Superior.
And UM-Twin Cities and Winona State are going to take hits on the other side of the border.
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Might as well close up River Falls and Superior.
And UM-Twin Cities and Winona State are going to take hits on the other side of the border.
Way more Minny kids going to Madison than WI kids going to UM-TC
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Way more Minny kids going to Madison than WI kids going to UM-TC
More Minnesota students take advantage of the program than Wisconsin students. But I can't find a campus breakdown.
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Besides JayBee, how well does Marquette draw in the Twin Cities area?
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Besides JayBee, how well does Marquette draw in the Twin Cities area?
We had several St Paul Irish Catholics during my time but few Minneapolis Lutherans.
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Besides JayBee, how well does Marquette draw in the Twin Cities area?
I've heard that it is the third largest metro area for alum.
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I believe we need a University of Michigan. I am not as certain we need an Eastern Michigan.
This is elitist crap, pure and simple. It's part of the reason why the University of Illinois rahrahs won't invest as heavily as they should in the University of Illinois at Chicago. If they did, Champaign would be a poor sister to UI-Chicago.
If we accepted the concept that we don't need other state universities in Illinois, I can only imagine how many qualified students would never get a chance and the impact that would have on our state's future. We have Southern Illinois, for example, which is ranked in the top 200 national universities in the nation (my daughter is looking at it). They have some things they do VERY well in Carbondale. We need it because not everyone can or wants to attend U of I and with its arrogant attitude, I'm not sure I would want to send someone there anyway. Not to mention the fact that at SIU, like Marquette, my daughter would be taught by real professors, not the dime-store TAs that teach most undergraduate classes at U of I.
I grew up in Tennessee and about a third to half my graduating class in Nashville went to Middle Tennessee State University (MTSU). Having only one public university in a state with today has five million people is absurd. In Wisconsin, it's good for the state to be able to have a system of public education so that folks who can't go to Madison can get a solid education. We can argue all day whether there needs to be UW-Superiors, Plattevilles, Whitewaters or River Falls, but having a UW in Eau Claire and LaCrosse in an excellent investment in Wisconsin's future. Just like Northern, Southern, Eastern and Western are for Illinois and like UTC, MTSU, ETSU and Tennessee Tech are for Tennessee.
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"Might as well close up River Falls and Superior."
I can't speak to River Falls, but in Superior, it's a one connection bus ride from most of town to the University of Minnesota-Duluth. UMD is probably closer to most of Superior than Brookfield is to Marquette.
Only argument is that one college (UMD) probably should absorb UWS and the two states should jointly fund it.
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Part of this structural mismatch could be remedied if high school guidance counselors and the like would push those 2.5gpa (with a low standard deviation) 19ACT kids toward respectable careers in something practical like high end manufacturing or a technical skill like auto-repair, plumbing, etc.
Umm, I have very mixed emotions about this one! I was one of those mediocre GPAs in high school with an average SAT who ended up with a Marquette degree and a Director in a corporate finance group. Thank God ole Birdie (our guidance counselor) kept her uninformed mouth closed.
That said, I have two adopted children who are average students. Ms. DGies and I have taken the position that if they're going to work hard and show they can work hard and make the commitment, we'll help fund whatever they want to do. If the commitment isn't there or if they simply can't do the work, the funding isn't either. I see the merit in high-paid plumbers, air conditioning repairment and auto mechanics... if that's what my children want to do. Keep the guidance counselors out of it, except to advise the parents!
Or, if they're asked. But only if they're asked.
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The modern college admission process is a fairly new phenomena. It was started after WW2 with all the returning soldiers and the GI bill. Prior to that, anyone could go to pretty much any college they wanted (even Harvard) so long as their check cleared. The GI bill offered returning vets college tuition so the numbers wanting to go to college skyrocketed. From this was born the current college admission process.
Prior to WW2 the big difference was Freshman and Sophomore years were brutal. They were designed to run off a good percentage of the class. So ...
Prior to WW2, you could go to any college you wanted provided you had the money, very difficult Freshman year so a low percentage actually finished.
The current system features impossible admission standards but once in a very high percentage graduate and a high percentage of those with honors.
Which is a better system?
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When discussing the German system, remember that all university is taxpayer funded through college. So doctors come out of the med-school with no debt, but only make around $100k a year. Teachers make almost as much as doctors. Just saying. But perhaps that is another point that needs contemplated in the health care thread.
As to Eastern Michigan, my 4.3 GPA, 33 ACT, NHS daughter will be attending in the fall. She has had her heart set on occupational therapy since her sophomore year in HS. In the midwest, that major is found primarily at the directionals. EMU is the right distance away and the best financial deal for us and has a strong OT program.
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When discussing the German system, remember that all university is taxpayer funded through college. So doctors come out of the med-school with no debt, but only make around $100k a year. Teachers make almost as much as doctors. Just saying. But perhaps that is another point that needs contemplated in the health care thread.
As to Eastern Michigan, my 4.3 GPA, 33 ACT, NHS daughter will be attending in the fall. She has had her heart set on occupational therapy since her sophomore year in HS. In the midwest, that major is found primarily at the directionals. EMU is the right distance away and the best financial deal for us and has a strong OT program.
People need to be really careful with the elitism. My wife went to Madison for undergrad and her PT masters, she applied to multiple Wisconsin schools including Concordia just in case. She did not apply to MU's PT program despite it having a strong rep for learning because she heard it was a bunch of snobby elitist folks in it and running it. I can't say, based on my experiences, that she was wrong. This was all before we met so you can't even blame me for making her impression worse. Bottom line, you have to be conscious of what you are putting out there as a university because you are competing for students just as much as the students are competing to get in.
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People need to be really careful with the elitism. My wife went to Madison for undergrad and her PT masters, she applied to multiple Wisconsin schools including Concordia just in case. She did not apply to MU's PT program despite it having a strong rep for learning because she heard it was a bunch of snobby elitist folks in it and running it. I can't say, based on my experiences, that she was wrong. This was all before we met so you can't even blame me for making her impression worse. Bottom line, you have to be conscious of what you are putting out there as a university because you are competing for students just as much as the students are competing to get in.
Her belief is not uncommon. As a senior in high school, my college English teacher chided my and my friend's choice to attend Marquette. One aspect of the 'college English' experience was he would invite former students who were on break to talk to the seniors about college (he would leave the room to allow free discussion). I returned every year to speak at this discussion partially to talk to future college kids, but a good deal of it was to dispel the belief that Marquette was filled with spoiled elitist jerks.
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Her belief is not uncommon. As a senior in high school, my college English teacher chided my and my friend's choice to attend Marquette. One aspect of the 'college English' experience was he would invite former students who were on break to talk to the seniors about college (he would leave the room to allow free discussion). I returned every year to speak at this discussion partially to talk to future college kids, but a good deal of it was to dispel the belief that Marquette was filled with spoiled elitist jerks.
Avoiding the "elitist" tag is a tall order to fill. Can you name one upper-tier private school that isn't considered "elitist" by at least some people? There are simply far too many people that make broad assumptions. I am sure that many of the folks who think Marquette is elitist also assume all successful businesspeople are greedy a$$holes.
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Avoiding the "elitist" tag is a tall order to fill. Can you name one upper-tier private school that isn't considered "elitist" by at least some people? There are simply far too many people that make broad assumptions. I am sure that many of the folks who think Marquette is elitist also assume all successful businesspeople are greedy a$$holes.
But some of that is the students that get put out into the world via some of those "elitist" schools. This goes back to MU deciding what kind of skills a graduate needs and educating them to those skills which include interpersonal. I have definitely met some MU grads that help reinforce the stereotype. Especially in this day and age of entitled millennials, MU could stand out if they really focused on Cura Personalis with regards to getting out into the working world. 50% of any hire I make has to do with the persons ability to integrate with the team. Even though I'm in a very technical field, if they have a basic technical understanding they can work here, but it's much harder to find someone who can/is willing to adapt to the environment they will find themselves in.
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We had several St Paul Irish Catholics during my time but few Minneapolis Lutherans.
Lutheran alum originally from MSP. Out of the Cities now but moved back after graduation for a couple years.
I'd say Minny does better with attracting alums than it does with sending kids to MU. There's one or two kids who matriculate from the large public schools; STA, Benilde, Hill, Breck, and others send a few more per year. Certainly not huge numbers.
MU could have a lot more success recruiting here, particularly in cities like Apple Valley, Eagan, Woodbury, Eden Prairie, Hopkins, etc. Our name recognition isn't as strong in high schools, probably because basketball is the third-most prominent HS sport after hockey and football. Kids who go private generally attend an in-state school like Gustavus, St. John's, St. Olaf, or St. Thomas (MN's version of MU). These names pull a lot of weight locally but aren't recognized nationally.
Because of this, MU has a real opportunity to matriculate more MN graduates... the distance is right -- not too close, but not too far, the urban campus is close to Minneapolis but enables good internship / service / learning opportunities, the athletics experience is better than anything in-state, the education is regionally (and increasingly, nationally) known, and you don't have to overcome the climate barrier to get kids to enroll.
Re: alumni, Chili's comment that it's the third largest metro area for alumni is spot on. Does anyone else remember how much gold was in the Metrodome during the '03 Elite Eight game? Most of 'em were local alums. Somehow, the state's strong economy flies under the national radar, but there are a ton of MN-based companies that actively recruit and hire MU grads... banking in downtown Minneapolis, the life sciences firms in the north metro that recruit biomedical engineering grads, ACN and the big four that fly grads out of MSP weekly, etc. It's a great place to live and raise a family and a ton of us recognize this fact.
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Only argument is that one college (UMD) probably should absorb UWS and the two states should jointly fund it.
+1 -- damn good idea. Reciprocity makes UWS redundant.
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I missed the part of the strategic vision where MU had a plan to combat the fact that the universe of families able and/or willing to pay private school tuition eventually drops to zero in the long run.
In 19 short years, with the average 5% annual increase, MU's tuition is $101k per year.
Good luck.
This is what the above looks like. (click the first google link..)
https://www.google.com/#q=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Fnews%2Farticles%2FSB10001424052702304607104579212420716860930&safe=off
(Why'd I link to the google search? If you go to WSJ.com directly, you need a subscription. If you hit it via google, WSJ lets you read it free.)
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Zig,
Just happen to know a UWS grad who became pres of a very big company.
And one who became Governor of the State of California, a Hollywood star and married (and later divorced) a Kennedy.
My Mom was a UWS grad too!