Upsets! / Surprise results.

[brewcity77]

That was a big time road win for wvu and bad home loss for the Ohio state

Neither of those things are true.

[We R Final Four]

Neither of those things are true.

One of these things are true.

[Herman Cain]

One of these things are true.

It was a neutral site game. The Cleveland Classic at the Rocket Mortgate Field House. WVU OSU game one and Duquesne Marshall game two. 

[Jay Bee]

Free throws mattering for UL against kentucky

Winning team shot 52.8% eFG%. Losing team? 45.5%.

[PGsHeroes32]

Winning team shot 52.8% eFG%. Losing team? 45.5%.

Free throws mattered

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Free throws mattered

Sure. They just mattered a lot less than about a dozen other things that happened in the game. For example, if Louisville had hit their season average in FT% (72%), they would have scored 5-6 more points. If they had hit their season average in 3P% (36.5%), they have have scored 6-9 more points. If they had held Kentucky to their season average in 3P% (29.3%), the Wildcats would have scored 6-9 points less.

It's always better to hit your FTs than miss them. But if you are going to examine why a team won or lost a game, why would you focus on the 9th or 10th most significant factor?

[PGsHeroes32]

Sure. They just mattered a lot less than about a dozen other things that happened in the game. For example, if Louisville had hit their season average in FT% (72%), they would have scored 5-6 more points. If they had hit their season average in 3P% (36.5%), they have have scored 6-9 more points. If they had held Kentucky to their season average in 3P% (29.3%), the Wildcats would have scored 6-9 points less.

It's always better to hit your FTs than miss them. But if you are going to examine why a team won or lost a game, why would you focus on the 9th or 10th most significant factor?

Because the game went to OT when they were 50% at the line.

This isn't debate of right or wrong.

They mattered.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Because the game went to OT when they were 50% at the line.

Why is that the only time that matters? If they had hit one more shot in regulation, or prevented Kentucky from getting a second chance buck by grabbing a defensive rebound, or done any one of a hundred other things the game wouldn't have gone to OT.

This isn't debate of right or wrong.

They mattered.

Again in a black and white sense of "did they matter" yes, they did. In that sense, what the ref ate for lunch that day also mattered. You can focus there if you want, but it was the 9th or 10th most significant factor in determining the outcome.

[PGsHeroes32]

Why is that the only time that matters? If they had hit one more shot in regulation, or prevented Kentucky from getting a second chance buck by grabbing a defensive rebound, or done any one of a hundred other things the game wouldn't have gone to OT.

Again in a black and white sense of "did they matter" yes, they did. In that sense, what the ref ate for lunch that day also mattered. You can focus there if you want, but it was the 9th or 10th most significant factor in determining the outcome.

Incorrect. They mattered.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Incorrect. They mattered.

What was incorrect?

[Cheeks]

Sure. They just mattered a lot less than about a dozen other things that happened in the game. For example, if Louisville had hit their season average in FT% (72%), they would have scored 5-6 more points. If they had hit their season average in 3P% (36.5%), they have have scored 6-9 more points. If they had held Kentucky to their season average in 3P% (29.3%), the Wildcats would have scored 6-9 points less.

It's always better to hit your FTs than miss them. But if you are going to examine why a team won or lost a game, why would you focus on the 9th or 10th most significant factor?

You are correct, but I think where fans get frustrated by the what ifs don’t factor in the opposing team’s efforts, too.

Case in point, UL if they had shot to their avg would have scored more points...true.  But didn’t Kentucky’s defense have a say in how they shot?  In other words, it wasn’t just a UL thing, but an opponent was out there trying to stop them...right?

But with free throws it’s always the shooter and the basket...no defenders to change the shot...always a 10 foot rim, 15 feet from the basket and no player can block the shot, etc.   Same drill each time.  Oh, sure, I get the argument about people screaming and pressure, etc, but in terms of the other team’s players flying at you, jumping to block shots, forcing you to run ragged to get open...that isn’t happening with free throws.  It’s the most constant thing about basketball which is why when teams aren’t hitting them that frustration is high...the other team isn’t making you it’s free throws....you’re missing them on your own.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You are correct, but I think where fans get frustrated by the what ifs don’t factor in the opposing team’s efforts, too.

Case in point, UL if they had shot to their avg would have scored more points...true.  But didn’t Kentucky’s defense have a say in how they shot?  In other words, it wasn’t just a UL thing, but an opponent was out there trying to stop them...right?

But with free throws it’s always the shooter and the basket...no defenders to change the shot...always a 10 foot rim, 15 feet from the basket and no player can block the shot, etc.   Same drill each time.  Oh, sure, I get the argument about people screaming and pressure, etc, but in terms of the other team’s players flying at you, jumping to block shots, forcing you to run ragged to get open...that isn’t happening with free throws.  It’s the most constant thing about basketball which is why when teams aren’t hitting them that frustration is high...the other team isn’t making you it’s free throws....you’re missing them on your own.

If the conversation is about fan frustration, sure. That's not the conversation I'm having. I think Scoop has demonstrated that fans will get frustrated at just about anything.

And it's not entirely true that the opponent isn't doing anything to make you miss your free throws. Teams can be strategic about who they put at the free throw line.

[Dr. Blackheart]

If the conversation is about fan frustration, sure. That's not the conversation I'm having. I think Scoop has demonstrated that fans will get frustrated at just about anything.

And it's not entirely true that the opponent isn't doing anything to make you miss your free throws. Teams can be strategic about who they put at the free throw line.

I think you can look no further than MU to make this case. Two years ago, MU shot 80.5% on free throws but it’s free throw rate was (28.8), one of the lowest in the nation (301). This season, MU is shooting almost ten points worse (70.8%), buts its free throw rate (42.7) is near the best (4th). Quite a difference.

This year it is about the Act of Attrition.  While opponents are employing Hack a Shaq, MU is also trying to deplete its opponents’ depth.

[brewcity77]

I think you can look no further than MU to make this case. Two years ago, MU shot 80.5% on free throws but it’s free throw rate was (28.8), one of the lowest in the nation (301). This season, MU is shooting almost ten points worse (70.8%), buts its free throw rate (42.7) is near the best (4th). Quite a difference.

In addition, the point gain is actually better on the latter case when you have a higher rate with a lower percentage. In 2017-18, the team's rate would have yielded 23.2 additional points at the line per 100 shot attempts. This year, the team's rate would yield 30.2 additional points at the line per 100 shot attempts. That's why free throw rate matters more than percentage. You would yield more points with that free throw rate even if the team only shot 55% from the line!

And of course, the extra bonus is the added fouls, which puts the opponent's under more pressure on defense, can take their best players out of the game for extended stretches, and compound the free throw advantage by getting into the bonus faster.

[JakeBarnes]

Do we think Arizona fans wondered whether Nico was watching MU blow an 18 point lead to Seton Hall last year or watching MU need to beat one of Creighton or Georgetown at home to win a BE title last year and fail to do so? Or is that just the MU fan base that does that?

Who cares if Dawson was watching Indiana play tonight? He signed an NLI to come to Marquette next year. We don’t have to worry about these things anymore. And as we found out, as if it wasn’t just common sense, a single game typically doesn’t sway a recruit from deciding to go to one school over another, given that Dawson saw us lose by about 20 points at Wisconsin and committed to us days later. Thanks Arch for visiting Dawson and keeping him from the TV and ruling us out due to that ugly performance!

This was a joke. Some IU fan came on our board after the WI loss and stated he hoped Dawson was watching.

[wadesworld]

This was a joke. Some IU fan came on our board after the WI loss and stated he hoped Dawson was watching.

Got it.  I didn't remember the IU fan saying he hoped Dawson was watching the Wisconsin game.  My apologies.

[Cheeks]

If the conversation is about fan frustration, sure. That's not the conversation I'm having. I think Scoop has demonstrated that fans will get frustrated at just about anything.

And it's not entirely true that the opponent isn't doing anything to make you miss your free throws. Teams can be strategic about who they put at the free throw line.

Yes, teams can be strategic about who they put on the line but they cannot alter that person's shot.  If that free throw shooter normally shoots 60% and for that game shoots 40%, that's on them...the basket didn't change, the rim is still 10 feet high.   

Free throws is the one area that is as close to the same from game to game to game.  Yes, I will concede shooting on the road has different backgrounds and all of that stuff....but the variability is much smaller than normal shooting in game action where one team's defenders can be massively different than another's...and they actually influence your shooting, spacing, openness, etc. 

Fans get frustrated when a team shoots 70% from FT's and suddenly shoots 52% the next game.  Whether it is rationale or not....well its fandom....not much in rationalization.

[Cheeks]

This was a joke. Some IU fan came on our board after the WI loss and stated he hoped Dawson was watching.

THIS ^^^   

[MuMark]

South Carolina just lost at home to Stetson.......SC had beaten both Virginia and Clemson in its last 2 games.

Good win for The Hatters.....’.bad loss for Frank Martin.....

[Mr. Nielsen]

South Carolina just lost at home to Stetson.......SC had beaten both Virginia and Clemson in its last 2 games.

Good win for The Hatters.....’.bad loss for Frank Martin.....

South Carolina was a 23 point favorite.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

South Carolina just lost at home to Stetson.......SC had beaten both Virginia and Clemson in its last 2 games.

Good win for The Hatters.....’.bad loss for Frank Martin.....

It's almost like college basketball teams are inconsistent. A fascinating phenomenon

[VegasWarrior77]

Halftime
WI 22 - Rider 11

(Men's Basketball)

[MuMark]

Iowa State played without Tyrese Halliburton tonight.......it did not go well.......


https://twitter.com/kenpomeroy/status/1212192167541624832?s=21

https://twitter.com/jeffborzello/status/1212195781844905985?s=21

[rocket surgeon]

St johnnies burped up a 7-0 end of game fur ball to butler.

60-58

[We R Final Four]

It was a neutral site game. The Cleveland Classic at the Rocket Mortgate Field House. WVU OSU game one and Duquesne Marshall game two.

My bad.