Point Guard...

[CTWarrior]

Everyone is talking about how improved D. Wilson has been the last few games, they fail to mention that a large reason that his scoring has been up is because of the change in defense towards him.  

Ohio State and New Hampshire didn't guard him, either.  At least give him credit for adjusting and attacking more.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Everyone is talking about how improved D. Wilson has been the last few games, they fail to mention that a large reason that his scoring has been up is because of the change in defense towards him.  He is not guarded...his man is 6 feet away at the closest and is doubling the post to deny ball entry instead of focusing on Wilson.  The help defenders are offering no help and sticking with the shooters.

That means D. Wilson can drive uncontested and just has to get his shot off once in the lane.  I've never seen a defense guard a D1 PG in that way.  He better be scoring more, no one is guarding him.

People are calling for more production out of the wings, but they are not getting great looks, because there men never leave them.  They also can't get kick outs from the post (the best way for a jump shooter to get a good shot), because the post is being doubled by D. Wilson's man, even before the ball is getting into the post.  

There are a lot of problems with this team, inconsistent shooting, bad floor spacing, lack of leadership and bad PG play.  I'm not saying that D. Wilson shouldn't be playing, but he has been bad and the improvement is a reflection of how the defenses ignore him...aka not a threat.

Derrick isn't a good shooter, and teams are sagging off. That is correct.

However, the idea that a good shooting PG would magically solve Jamil, Juan and Todd's deficiencies is too simplistic.

If that were the case, MU could simply insert Mayo at the PG, and the offense would magically open up. I don't think that is a the case.

[noblewarrior]

Everyone is talking about how improved D. Wilson has been the last few games, they fail to mention that a large reason that his scoring has been up is because of the change in defense towards him.  He is not guarded...his man is 6 feet away at the closest and is doubling the post to deny ball entry instead of focusing on Wilson.  The help defenders are offering no help and sticking with the shooters.

That means D. Wilson can drive uncontested and just has to get his shot off once in the lane.  I've never seen a defense guard a D1 PG in that way.  He better be scoring more, no one is guarding him.

People are calling for more production out of the wings, but they are not getting great looks, because there men never leave them.  They also can't get kick outs from the post (the best way for a jump shooter to get a good shot), because the post is being doubled by D. Wilson's man, even before the ball is getting into the post.  

There are a lot of problems with this team, inconsistent shooting, bad floor spacing, lack of leadership and bad PG play.  I'm not saying that D. Wilson shouldn't be playing, but he has been bad and the improvement is a reflection of how the defenses ignore him...aka not a threat.

I agree with this post, ^^^

D. Wilson needs to hit a couple of his wide open 3 ops...this could change the whole outlook of MU's offense.  Even if he shot and missed, it would at least show he's not scared and maybe build confidence for his future game.  Over and over again during this SDST game the ball would move around the perimeter, someone would drive and kick the ball out to a wide open player for a good quality 3 attempt... unfortunately, this wide open player was too often D Wilson and he would restart the offense.   He just won't take the shot!!!  This is very frustrating for a fan and makes D Wilson an easy target.

But, what was even more frustrating was the poor FT shooting, poor rebounding/blocking out, poor inbounding....basically, this team made a lot of bad basketball plays.  These kids don't seem to be able to find a rhythm.  What's the cause of this?  I say Buzz and Staff, but see above for many opinions on this, most of which seem to focus on D. Wilson.   I don't know if DW is a legitimate punching bag or not, but what I can see is Buzz and Staff do not have this team ready to win games against better than average teams which makes this team not so good at the moment.  If this level of play continues these kids will be watching the selection show in nervous anticipation because they will be bouncing on that bubble again.

I sure hope Buzz can get these kids rolling because I need some positive threads to read.

Lurky Lurkenson

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

You guys are total buffoons. We haven't had a good shooting PG since Diener graduated. How did Louisville do last year? Siva is an atrocious shooter. I'm not comparing Wilson to Siva, but you guys are embarrassing yourselves thinking Wilson is a problem. He's one of the only guys playing well consistently. He's a better player than Junior was. A better athlete, a better defender and way, way better at protecting the ball.

The consistency of our bigs (in both effort and performance) is the problem. Also, this talk of Mayo this and Mayo that and his minutes and Thomas's minutes is another indication that some of you don't know what you're watching. Thomas starts and gets big minutes because he has shown an ability to get hot that Mayo has not. Mayo has shown he can score but he's also shown an uncanny ability to take bad shots and sulk. If the two of them were to miss time, we'd miss Thomas infinitely more than Mayo. That's just a fact. Matter of fact, I think JaJuan is on the verge of taking minutes from Mayo and I hope he does.

[GGGG]

Everyone is talking about how improved D. Wilson has been the last few games, they fail to mention that a large reason that his scoring has been up is because of the change in defense towards him.  He is not guarded...his man is 6 feet away at the closest and is doubling the post to deny ball entry instead of focusing on Wilson.  The help defenders are offering no help and sticking with the shooters.

That means D. Wilson can drive uncontested and just has to get his shot off once in the lane.  I've never seen a defense guard a D1 PG in that way.  He better be scoring more, no one is guarding him.

People are calling for more production out of the wings, but they are not getting great looks, because there men never leave them.  They also can't get kick outs from the post (the best way for a jump shooter to get a good shot), because the post is being doubled by D. Wilson's man, even before the ball is getting into the post. 

There are a lot of problems with this team, inconsistent shooting, bad floor spacing, lack of leadership and bad PG play.  I'm not saying that D. Wilson shouldn't be playing, but he has been bad and the improvement is a reflection of how the defenses ignore him...aka not a threat.

I think the looks that our shooters are getting are no better nor worse than they were last year.  But I do agree with the packing in the paint problem.  The issue is that I am not sure what MU can do at this point.

[CTWarrior]

You guys are total buffoons. We haven't had a good shooting PG since Diener graduated. How did Louisville do last year? Siva is an atrocious shooter.

I don't know how you could watch last night and not think that Derrick Wilson doesn't have a major negative impact on Davante Gardner.  Wilson's man is able is double down on Gardner BEFORE he gets the ball.  That hurts DG, and it also hurts Thomas because his man doesn't have to leave him to double the post because Marquette's opposition rule is and will be leave Derrick Wilson to double at all times.  If Gardner kicks it back to Derrick the defense doesn't have to scramble to get back to the ball so there is no payment or risk associated with doubling the post.  Makes us easier to guard.  Granted Cadougan was no lights out shooter, but he certainly commanded more respect from oppostion defenses.

Derrick is taking the first steps toward remedying this issue by penetrating more.  Seems to me we could be effective by having him set more screens on the perimeter for Thomas on ball side when the ball goes down low or by running through the lane and having the rest of the guys rotate.  Anything to force the defense to scramble more.

[Aughnanure]

We need a star. Davante is close but it's hard to have a star in the post because the other team can more easily defend/take them out of the game with certain defenses.

Really need Jamil, Todd, or one of the freshman (Burton?) make the other team respect their scoring ability.

[NersEllenson]

Everyone is talking about how improved D. Wilson has been the last few games, they fail to mention that a large reason that his scoring has been up is because of the change in defense towards him.  He is not guarded...his man is 6 feet away at the closest and is doubling the post to deny ball entry instead of focusing on Wilson.  The help defenders are offering no help and sticking with the shooters.

That means D. Wilson can drive uncontested and just has to get his shot off once in the lane.  I've never seen a defense guard a D1 PG in that way.  He better be scoring more, no one is guarding him.

People are calling for more production out of the wings, but they are not getting great looks, because there men never leave them.  They also can't get kick outs from the post (the best way for a jump shooter to get a good shot), because the post is being doubled by D. Wilson's man, even before the ball is getting into the post.  

There are a lot of problems with this team, inconsistent shooting, bad floor spacing, lack of leadership and bad PG play.  I'm not saying that D. Wilson shouldn't be playing, but he has been bad and the improvement is a reflection of how the defenses ignore him...aka not a threat.

Wow - somebody gets it!!  The reason our wings and bigs are struggling so much is because Derrick Wilson is a total and complete non factor to hurt you from the perimeter.  Defenses sag off of him, pack the paint, and it makes it far more difficult for the bigs, or wings to get looks when you can help off a Point Guard so much.

And please, all the excuses that his 2nd half was the effect of the groin - as some have pointed out - he was chasing the SDSU point guard all over the floor, denying him the ball down the stretch.  He didn't lose an millisecond of quickness or explosion.  He is who he is - a guy who can score going right at the basket..and a very good defender.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Wow - somebody gets it!!  The reason our wings and bigs are struggling so much is because Derrick Wilson is a total and complete non factor to hurt you from the perimeter.  Defenses sag off of him, pack the paint, and it makes it far more difficult for the bigs, or wings to get looks when you can help off a Point Guard so much.

And please, all the excuses that his 2nd half was the effect of the groin - as some have pointed out - he was chasing the SDSU point guard all over the floor, denying him the ball down the stretch.  He didn't lose an millisecond of quickness or explosion.  He is who he is - a guy who can score going right at the basket..and a very good defender.

My God you're a clueless boob.

[GGGG]

Wow - somebody gets it!!  The reason our wings and bigs are struggling so much is because Derrick Wilson is a total and complete non factor to hurt you from the perimeter.  Defenses sag off of him, pack the paint, and it makes it far more difficult for the bigs, or wings to get looks when you can help off a Point Guard so much.

And please, all the excuses that his 2nd half was the effect of the groin - as some have pointed out - he was chasing the SDSU point guard all over the floor, denying him the ball down the stretch.  He didn't lose an millisecond of quickness or explosion.  He is who he is - a guy who can score going right at the basket..and a very good defender.

OK....who should he have played instead?

[MU82]

MU82- I find myself agreeing with you more often than not, but you're leaving out that he hurt himself early in the second half. He lost that half step that got him to the hoop in the first half.

Not quite fair to compare the two directly.

Fair point. I hope his injury was the reason, and I hope he is 100% healthy by Saturday.

Still, if one looks at Derrick's body of work one fourth of the way through his first season as starter, the jury is still out.

The point Sultan made about Derrick having a higher shooting pct than our shooting guards is much more of an indictment of our shooting guards than credit to Derrick. If Derrick had to take shots from the same spots on the floor where we need the shooting guards to take them, Derrick would be shooting 0.00%. If Derrick had to shoot from where ASU's Carson and SDSU' s Thames did in order to propel their teams to victory, Derrick would be shooting 0.00%. In fact, he already is. Unless I'm mistaken, he hasn't made a single jump shot this season. Hasn't even made a 3-foot floater. As a result, defenses simply don't have to play him.

So again, while PG play is not our only problem, and might not even be the No. 1 problem (although that's debatable), it continues to be a problem.

[MerrittsMustache]

Fair point. I hope his injury was the reason, and I hope he is 100% healthy by Saturday.

Still, if one looks at Derrick's body of work one fourth of the way through his first season as starter, the jury is still out.

The point Sultan made about Derrick having a higher shooting pct than our shooting guards is much more of an indictment of our shooting guards than credit to Derrick. If Derrick had to take shots from the same spots on the floor where we need the shooting guards to take them, Derrick would be shooting 0.00%. If Derrick had to shoot from where ASU's Carson and SDSU' s Thames did in order to propel their teams to victory, Derrick would be shooting 0.00%. In fact, he already is. Unless I'm mistaken, he hasn't made a single jump shot this season. Hasn't even made a 3-foot floater. As a result, defenses simply don't have to play him.

So again, while PG play is not our only problem, and might not even be the No. 1 problem (although that's debatable), it continues to be a problem.

If Wilson average 15 ppg but was careless with the basketball and couldn't defend at all, would people still consider PG a problem? I can guarantee that there wouldn't be nearly as many threads about him if that was the case.

So far, Derrick is averaging 5.5 points and 4.4 assists. That means he's accounting for about 14.3 ppg (assume 2 pts per assist). Last season Junior averaged 8.5 points and 3.8 assists so he accounted for about 16.1 ppg. Throw in the fact that Junior averaged nearly 1 more TO/game and it's pretty close to being a wash in terms of offensive production.

[CTWarrior]

OK....who should he have played instead?

This is the crux of it, isn't it?  If Dawson isn't ready to go yet, our options appear to be Mayo, who has a scorer's mentality, or Jamil Wilson, who doesn't really have the necessary handle.  So we will continue with Derrick until he graduates or until Buzz thinks Dawson or Duane Wilson can do better.  Derrick has shown that if he can get to the rim he can score.  That means if he gets by the first defender (not an easy task when he is sagging 6 feet in) he can draw help and distribute.  He now has something to build on.  Next step is to start pulling up and hitting 5-7 footers so he can draw enough of a crowd that he can pass to someone who is open in a place where he can do some damage.  Do-able, I think.

[GGGG]

This is the crux of it, isn't it?  If Dawson isn't ready to go yet, our options appear to be Mayo, who has a scorer's mentality, or Jamil Wilson, who doesn't really have the necessary handle.  So we will continue with Derrick until he graduates or until Buzz thinks Dawson or Duane Wilson can do better.  Derrick has shown that if he can get to the rim he can score.  That means if he gets by the first defender (not an easy task when he is sagging 6 feet in) he can draw help and distribute.  He now has something to build on.  Next step is to start pulling up and hitting 5-7 footers so he can draw enough of a crowd that he can pass to someone who is open in a place where he can do some damage.  Do-able, I think.

I think the best we can hope for is that Dawson or Duane improve enough to take 10-15 minutes of Derrick's time.

[CTWarrior]

So far, Derrick is averaging 5.5 points and 4.4 assists. That means he's accounting for about 14.3 ppg (assume 2 pts per assist). Last season Junior averaged 8.5 points and 3.8 assists so he accounted for about 16.1 ppg. Throw in the fact that Junior averaged nearly 1 more TO/game and it's pretty close to being a wash in terms of offensive production.

Basketball stats relation to winning and losing are not as simple as this.  DeWilson is doing this with minimal defensive attention being paid to him when compared to Cadougan, meaning that while he is accumulating similar stats to Cadougan, everyone else's job is harder because they are facing an extra defender.  (Well, maybe 3/4 of an extra defender).

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Derrick has shown that if he can get to the rim he can score.  That means if he gets by the first defender (not an easy task when he is sagging 6 feet in) he can draw help and distribute.  He now has something to build on.  Next step is to start pulling up and hitting 5-7 footers so he can draw enough of a crowd that he can pass to someone who is open in a place where he can do some damage.  Do-able, I think.

I agree on how Derrick needs to evolve to get better.

However, I disagree that he is a large part of the "problem" right now. Jamil and Davante are all-conf. type players. They need to play as such. Juan, Chris and Todd should be solid contributors. They need to play like it. Steve Taylor needs to learn how to play basketball. Not sure what is going on with him.

Get that stuff squared away, and I think Derrick fills his role adequately.

If Derrick suddenly started shooting better, I'm not sure the other issues would go away automatically, as others have implied.  

[MU82]

If Wilson average 15 ppg but was careless with the basketball and couldn't defend at all, would people still consider PG a problem? I can guarantee that there wouldn't be nearly as many threads about him if that was the case.

So far, Derrick is averaging 5.5 points and 4.4 assists. That means he's accounting for about 14.3 ppg (assume 2 pts per assist). Last season Junior averaged 8.5 points and 3.8 assists so he accounted for about 16.1 ppg. Throw in the fact that Junior averaged nearly 1 more TO/game and it's pretty close to being a wash in terms of offensive production.

Does it have to be an either/or proposition? Is the only option that if our PG scores double-digits he automatically would be a careless offensive player and horrible defender?

It isn't about averages, it's about the way a PG makes a defense react. Junior could hit two 15-foot jumpers in a row and, therefore, make the defense at least account for him. I will take one more TO per game to have a PG who can make the defense worry about him at least a little bit.

Earlier, somebody mentioned Siva's shooting. Again, not the best argument to defend Derrick. Siva could get hot. Siva could get on a roll and carry a team. Defenses couldn't just stand 10 feet away from Siva and say, "Go ahead, shoot." Siva also was a relentless, effective, dangerous driver to the hoop. I would trade Derrick for Siva in a millisecond, and so would every other Scooper who thinks about it.

We love the "what-ifs" here on Scoop. So how 'bout this: What if we have Carson or Thames and our opponent had Derrick or a Derrick clone? Would we have beaten both ASU and SDSU? I say yes -- and fairly easily.

[CTWarrior]

However, I disagree that he is a large part of the "problem" right now. Jamil and Davante are all-conf. type players. They need to play as such. Juan, Chris and Todd should be solid contributors. They need to play like it. Steve Taylor needs to learn how to play basketball. Not sure what is going on with him.

Couldn't some of Gardner's and Wilson's problems be related to the PG, though?  Those guys need to get the ball in position where they can do something with it

Too many times we're giving Gardner the ball on a telegraphed pass further away from the basket than last year with an immediate double-team and no shooters to pass to.  That's not just DeWil, that's JT, too.

Too many times Jamil is receiving the ball when he's 25 feet from the basket moving in the wrong direction with a defender on him and help waiting in the lane.  He's not a guy who gets the ball like that and just creates.  We shouldn't expect him to.

[willie warrior]

Couldn't some of Gardner's and Wilson's problems be related to the PG, though?  Those guys need to get the ball in position where they can do something with it

Too many times we're giving Gardner the ball on a telegraphed pass further away from the basket than last year with an immediate double-team and no shooters to pass to.  That's not just DeWil, that's JT, too.

Too many times Jamil is receiving the ball when he's 25 feet from the basket moving in the wrong direction with a defender on him and help waiting in the lane.  He's not a guy who gets the ball like that and just creates.  We shouldn't expect him to.

I think you have this spot on. Jr. was much, much better at hitting the open man (sometimes when they did not even expect it) than Derrick. IMO Jr. was a far better passer, sometimes taking chances. (Something like Brett Favre in football--I can thread it through 3 defenders.)

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Couldn't some of Gardner's and Wilson's problems be related to the PG, though?  Those guys need to get the ball in position where they can do something with it

Too many times we're giving Gardner the ball on a telegraphed pass further away from the basket than last year with an immediate double-team and no shooters to pass to.  That's not just DeWil, that's JT, too.

Too many times Jamil is receiving the ball when he's 25 feet from the basket moving in the wrong direction with a defender on him and help waiting in the lane.  He's not a guy who gets the ball like that and just creates.  We shouldn't expect him to.

You're right that it's related... but it's not like MU was a GREAT shooting team last year, and REALLY BAD this year.

They were/are below average both years.

Now, if Diener was playing PG, certainly it would help... but it wouldn't change all of the FTs that Davante has missed, and it wouldn't make Jamil more assertive.

The best players need to be better. Once that happens, I'll start worrying about Derrick.

[MU82]

The best players need to be better. Once that happens, I'll start worrying about Derrick.

I do think PG is a bigger problem than you do, but I also agree 100% that we need far more out of Jamil and other supposed leaders/standouts. It's THEIR team. Derrick is just a role player, and it's not as if we have many other options at PG.

[MerrittsMustache]

Does it have to be an either/or proposition? Is the only option that if our PG scores double-digits he automatically would be a careless offensive player and horrible defender?

It isn't about averages, it's about the way a PG makes a defense react. Junior could hit two 15-foot jumpers in a row and, therefore, make the defense at least account for him. I will take one more TO per game to have a PG who can make the defense worry about him at least a little bit.

Earlier, somebody mentioned Siva's shooting. Again, not the best argument to defend Derrick. Siva could get hot. Siva could get on a roll and carry a team. Defenses couldn't just stand 10 feet away from Siva and say, "Go ahead, shoot." Siva also was a relentless, effective, dangerous driver to the hoop. I would trade Derrick for Siva in a millisecond, and so would every other Scooper who thinks about it.

We love the "what-ifs" here on Scoop. So how 'bout this: What if we have Carson or Thames and our opponent had Derrick or a Derrick clone? Would we have beaten both ASU and SDSU? I say yes -- and fairly easily.

My point about Derrick's scoring was that fans like points. If a guy doesn't score many points, fans want him replaced. If a guy occasionally scores some points, especially in the form of 3s or dunks, let him play 40 minutes! Fans like points!  (intentional hyperbole)

Yes, I would like a future NBA player (Siva, Carson, etc) running the point over Derrick Wilson. So would Buzz. But what does that have to do with anything? While we're at it, what if MU had Julius Randle instead of Gardner and Marcus Smart instead of Jake? I bet MU would be 8-0!

Great comment by Guns n Ammo: The best players need to be better. Once that happens, I'll start worrying about Derrick.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I do think PG is a bigger problem than you do, but I also agree 100% that we need far more out of Jamil and other supposed leaders/standouts. It's THEIR team. Derrick is just a role player, and it's not as if we have many other options at PG.

Yea, and just to be clear, I fully realize that when Derrick plays well, he's only above average, and when he plays "okay", he's still below average.

His ceiling just isn't that high. I get it.

But, I had higher expectations for other guys on the team, Jamil and Davante specifically. When those guys play well, and the other upperclassman fill their roles (Todd, Chris, Juan, Derrick), I think this team can be pretty good.

If the best players aren't playing well, I don't know if any of the others are consistent enough or good enough to pick up the slack, and that's when you see them struggle.

[brandx]

Can't shoot?  He has the same shooting percentage as JJJ and Todd Mayo, and nearly a full ten percentage points better than Jake Thomas...you know...our "shooting guards."

Quite a difference when comparing "shooters" vs. someone who only takes layups. Not to mention that the 'shooter' has to beat someone to get open or before getting into the lane as opposed to being unguarded outside the lane. And if the "shooter drives, more often than not, he has to deal with the 5th defender who is not required to guard his man (PG who cannot shoot past 3 feet from the hoop).

[CTWarrior]

Now, if Diener was playing PG, certainly it would help... but it wouldn't change all of the FTs that Davante has missed, and it wouldn't make Jamil more assertive.

The best players need to be better. Once that happens, I'll start worrying about Derrick.

I do agree that last night Derrick was not the primary or even the secondary reason we lost.  We missed too many FTs and allowed too many putbacks to blame our PG, who actually did a good job on the defensive boards and by knocking a few balls away from their interior guys under the basket.  From an overall season perspective, hoqwever IMO PG is our biggest positional concern.