The Offcial White Sox Playoff Page

[MarquetteFan94]

yawn

[mu_hilltopper]

NUTS!

One thing that did bother me .. why does a coin flip determine home field?  Everything in baseball is statistics.  Head to head sure seems like a natural determiner for home field tiebreak.

[RawdogDX]

Can't argue with you there.  I don't know why you would go to coin toss ever.  Head to head, runs scored, runs allowed.  There is a point to playing all those games.

[77fan88warrior]

I am just happy that a 5 year old won the the coin flip for the Sox! Both teams had identical home and away records and split season series? It would be stupid to base it on run differentieal... when w's and l's are all that count in standings. The NFL obviously can't have a one game playoff before you go there!

[RawdogDX]

We weren't saying to eliminate the play in game.  I was saying run differential would make more sense to determine where the play in game is held than a coin toss.  Why would a coin toss make more sense than head to head or runs scored?

[mu_hilltopper]

Both teams had identical home and away records and split season series?

No one said it should be based on home and away (total) records.

The most logical statistic is the head to head record.  It shows, when playing eachother, who was better over the year.  Pretty obvious tiebreaker. 

This year, they played 18 games.  Twins were 10-8.   

The NFL's first tiebreaker is head to head.  2nd tiebreak is won/loss within the division.  Sounds like a pretty logical system.  Instead, MLB is going with "luck". 

Hell, a game of rock paper scissors would add more skill to their system.

[dwaderoy2004]

i think it has to do with logistics.  in some cases two teams could finish their season series on the last day of the season.  And i'm sure some venues may be looking to rent out or use the stadium for other purposes if there are no more games.  can't do that if there is no determination until the day before.  This probably wasn;t the case with the twins and white sox (although the HHH is a multi-use facility) but they have to come up with something that is fair for everyone.  Just speculation on my part.

[mu_hilltopper]

 .. but the chance of that happening is very tiny.  I'll bet not one ballpark was being used yesterday.   -- Heck, the WSox had to play TWO extra games past their schedule in their park.  They got it done.  No one knows when a rainout will have to be made up at the end of the season.

[DegenerateDish]

Not sure why there was a "yawn" post, but whatever.

As a Sox fan, beating the Twins in that playoff made it pretty sweet. I mean that as a compliment to the Twins. They were a great opponent and worthy team all year. To make the playoffs, you should have to beat the best competition. No shame for the Twins, as they had a great season and play a great style of baseball.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

If the Twins would have won the coin flip, they would have had to reschedule the monster truck show at the metrodome on Tuesday.

[🏀]

If the Twins would have won the coin flip, they would have had to reschedule the monster truck show at the metrodome on Tuesday.

Was Carzilla there?

[Pakuni]

No one said it should be based on home and away (total) records.

The most logical statistic is the head to head record.  It shows, when playing eachother, who was better over the year.  Pretty obvious tiebreaker. 

This year, they played 18 games.  Twins were 10-8.   

The NFL's first tiebreaker is head to head.  2nd tiebreak is won/loss within the division.  Sounds like a pretty logical system.  Instead, MLB is going with "luck". 

Hell, a game of rock paper scissors would add more skill to their system.

It's not luck. Contrary to your implication, the division was not decided by a coin flip. There was an actual baseball game played. With real players and everything. Yes, the White Sox benefited from playing it at home. The Twinkies got the benefit - thanks to the luck of a rainy weekend in Chicago - of having an extra day's rest, facing a tired team with a very tired pitching staff. No excuses.

[🏀]

It's not luck. Contrary to your implication, the division was not decided by a coin flip. There was an actual baseball game played. With real players and everything. Yes, the White Sox benefited from playing it at home. The Twinkies got the benefit - thanks to the luck of a rainy weekend in Chicago - of having an extra day's rest, facing a tired team with a very tired pitching staff. No excuses.

I agree with your point.

But you have to admit, a coin-flip is dumb.

[wadesworld]

It's not luck. Contrary to your implication, the division was not decided by a coin flip. There was an actual baseball game played. With real players and everything. Yes, the White Sox benefited from playing it at home. The Twinkies got the benefit - thanks to the luck of a rainy weekend in Chicago - of having an extra day's rest, facing a tired team with a very tired pitching staff. No excuses.

That's the point, they played 162 games this season played by real players too. And after those games they had the same records. Those real players played 18 games against each other and the Twins won 10 of those games while the White Sox won 8. Why should the Twins have to play in Chicago then? A coin flip to determine where the game is played for a tiebreak is even worse than the All Star game winner getting home field adavantage for the World Series. Nobody's making excuses, it's just a dumb way to determine where it's played. If you didn't want a tired team you shouldn't have gotten swept by the Twins and you wouldn't have even had to play that Tigers game and would've been pleanty rested for the playoffs. I'm a Brewers fan and didn't care who won last night, but the Twins deserved a home game for it, especially with how well they played down the stretch vs. how poorly the White Sox player down the stretch and their record vs. the White Sox this year. Coin flip, luck shouldn't decide it.

[DegenerateDish]

The Cubs have benefited from the flip of a coin in recent history as well. See Giants @ Cubs, 9/28/98.

[DegenerateDish]

That's the point, they played 162 games this season played by real players too. And after those games they had the same records. Those real players played 18 games against each other and the Twins won 10 of those games while the White Sox won 8. Why should the Twins have to play in Chicago then? A coin flip to determine where the game is played for a tiebreak is even worse than the All Star game winner getting home field adavantage for the World Series. Nobody's making excuses, it's just a dumb way to determine where it's played. If you didn't want a tired team you shouldn't have gotten swept by the Twins and you wouldn't have even had to play that Tigers game and would've been pleanty rested for the playoffs. I'm a Vrewets fan and didn't care who won last night, but the Twins deserved a home game for it, especially with how well they played down the stretch vs. how poorly the White Sox player down the stretch and their record vs. the White Sox this year. Coin flip, luck shouldn't decide it.

If the Twins deserved it, they would have scored more runs last night than the White Sox, plain and simple. It was decided on the field. Why complain about coin flips now when it's happened for a while now. Plenty of examples exist...Yankees @ Red Sox in '78, Angels @ M's in '95, Giants @ Cubs in '98, and so on.

The Twins aren't a victim here, if they were the better team, they should have won it on the field last night. Who cares what happened down the stretch, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

but the Twins deserved a home game for it, especially with how well they played down the stretch vs. how poorly the White Sox player down the stretch

September records:

White Sox 12-15
Twins 11-15

[dwaderoy2004]

especially with how well they played down the stretch vs. how poorly the White Sox player down the stretch and their record vs. the White Sox this year.

the sox were 12-15 in september, while the twins were 11-15.  neither world beaters, but it's not like the twins were outplaying the sox.  and while the twins were 10-8 against the sox this year, the sox scored more runs than the twins in those games.  and if the twins fans are pissed, maybe they should have beat the royals one more time.  this can go back and forth forever.  just to be clear, i do think a coin flip is a lousy way to determine home field advantage.

[mu_hilltopper]

It's not luck. Contrary to your implication, the division was not decided by a coin flip. There was an actual baseball game played. With real players and everything. Yes, the White Sox benefited from playing it at home. The Twinkies got the benefit - thanks to the luck of a rainy weekend in Chicago - of having an extra day's rest, facing a tired team with a very tired pitching staff. No excuses.

I never said the White Sox didn't "deserve it".  They won last night, fair and square.   

The device MLB uses to determine the LOCATION of the tie-breaker is random luck, and that's indisputable.

Applying the NFL's tiebreaker rules to the location selection, the White Sox did NOT, however, deserve to have that game at their home field. 

Both teams dominated the other at their home field this season, with the road team winning only 3 games of 19.  By extension, indeed, that coin flip may very well have determined the winner last night.

I don't mind "really playing" a tiebreaker with real guys on a real field.  I do mind the way the location is chosen.   -- (And to add another element .. it's also a revenue generator.  One extra sold out game = $$$ for whoever wins a coin flip?  That's daffy, when there are other statistical ways of granting a team that honor, and advantage.)

[Pakuni]

I agree with your point.

But you have to admit, a coin-flip is dumb.

A coin flip is dumb if there's a season series winner. But if the series is tied, then what? Record within the division? Within the league?
I'd hate to think how one team did versus the Royals - as opposed to versus the Angels or Cubs or Brewers - would matter more in determining a champion. At some point, isn't it just best to settle it on the field?

Regardless, it seems to me that Twins fans are strongly implying that it was the coin flip - not game on the field - that settled things. Simply not true. Home field gave the ChiSox an advantage, but the Twins had their own advantages based on something just as arbitrary ... the weather. Twins went into that game with more than 48 hours rest. The Sox just finished a game about 22 hours earlier.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The game was certainly decided on the field.

No doubt.

But, home field advantage was huge in this instance. Look at the road records of these teams. It makes a difference.

Coin flips have been lame forever... it's just coming up now because it's hitting more locally. If the Sox had won the season series, but been forced to play in the Dome, you can bet Hawk would have been screaming about it.

Anyways, the Sox got the big hit last night and are going to the playoffs. Congrats to them.

[mu_hilltopper]

I'd go with:

1. Head to Head

2. Record within the division.  Why?  Because you are guaranteed the exact same number of games versus the exact same opponents with the same proportions of home/aways. 

Sure, that will include games versus the dregs of the division, like KC.  So what?   It's not like KC never beat anyone.  KC beat MN and CWS 6 of 18.  (.333).    Those games aren't exactly "gimmies".  You gotta beat them.   You might dominate them, win 18.  Well, then you'll win this tiebreaker if the other 1st place team doesn't dominate them for 18.   That's about as good as any other non-head-to-head breaker.

3. I could go with a either League records, or a coin flip.  (No, wait, make that rock paper scissors.)  League records wouldn't guarantee the same teams playing in the same amounts in the same proportions Home/away.    If you're tied after #1 and #2 above .. you're pretty damn equal, and a coin flip becomes a fair(er) outcome.

Bottom line .. home field advantage is HUGE.   Both CWS and MIN won nearly twice as often at home than away, and playing eachother, that advantage was nearly absolute, with 84% of the games going to the home team.  The coin flip didn't determine the winner, no.  But it sure changed the odds dramatically, not based on skill, or past performance, but on sheer dumb luck.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

Are you saying that a 5 year old kid telling his father (assistant G.M. of the Sox) to call heads is luck?

[DegenerateDish]

Not a lot is fair in how baseball determines things. Another example:

Winning Percentage of 2008 Interleague Opponents

Twins .454 (6 games, 3 on road, vs 1 NL playoff team)
White Sox .487 (9 games, 6 on road, vs NL playoff teams)

[77fan88warrior]

I'd go with:

1. Head to Head

2. Record within the division.  Why?  Because you are guaranteed the exact same number of games versus the exact same opponents with the same proportions of home/aways. 

Sure, that will include games versus the dregs of the division, like KC.  So what?   It's not like KC never beat anyone.  KC beat MN and CWS 6 of 18.  (.333).    Those games aren't exactly "gimmies".  You gotta beat them.   You might dominate them, win 18.  Well, then you'll win this tiebreaker if the other 1st place team doesn't dominate them for 18.   That's about as good as any other non-head-to-head breaker.

3. I could go with a either League records, or a coin flip.  (No, wait, make that rock paper scissors.)  League records wouldn't guarantee the same teams playing in the same amounts in the same proportions Home/away.    If you're tied after #1 and #2 above .. you're pretty damn equal, and a coin flip becomes a fair(er) outcome.

Bottom line .. home field advantage is HUGE.   Both CWS and MIN won nearly twice as often at home than away, and playing eachother, that advantage was nearly absolute, with 84% of the games going to the home team.  The coin flip didn't determine the winner, no.  But it sure changed the odds dramatically, not based on skill, or past performance, but on sheer dumb luck.

I totally agree with you Hilltopper on head to head and then moving on to division records. League records and run differential is the same as a coin flip. I will take a coin flip over beating bad teams to death or not resting players.