If Buzz Did Not Come To MU Last Year, What Kind Of Recruiting Class Now?

[Tugg Speedman]

We have had lots of talk about what would have happened if we hired an experienced coach versus Buzz. 

How about this, if Buzz did not show up 10 months ago, what kind of recruiting class would we have now?

We'd still would have gotten Nick Williams, and then lost him when Crean left.

However, Fulce, Outle and now Butler would not have been possible.  They happened because of Buzz.

Ty Taylor?  Probably but a lot less certain giving that Ty himself said he as a better relationship with Buzz than Crean.

So, no Buzz and we would have Nick Williams and "half Taylor."

Of course Crean would have found other bodies to replace Fulce, Outle and now Butler.  But we can assume that they would not have been as good or those other bodies would have been signed already.

Bottom line, if Buzz never showed up, and then Crean left, we literally would have no recruiting class to speak of right now.

Thoughts/Discussion

[IrwinFletcher]

Do not forget about Erik Williams who will be on campus in about 15 months.  This young man appears to be on his way to a top 50 ranking if he isn't there already.

Pair him with Jamil Wilson.......

[mviale]

Yes, dont forget Erik Williams.  He will be a special player. We wont remember the ones that got away soon.

[ChicosBailBonds]

We have had lots of talk about what would have happened if we hired an experienced coach versus Buzz. 

How about this, if Buzz did not show up 10 months ago, what kind of recruiting class would we have now?

We'd still would have gotten Nick Williams, and then lost him when Judas left.

However, Fulce, Outle and now Butler would not have been possible.  They happened because of Buzz.

Ty Taylor?  Probably but a lot less certain giving that Ty himself said he as a better relationship with Buzz than Judas.

So, no Buzz and we would have Nick Williams and "half Taylor."

Of course Judas would have found other bodies to replace Fulce, Outle and now Butler.  But we can assume that they would not have been as good or those other bodies would have been signed already.

Bottom line, if Buzz never showed up, and then Judas left, we literally would have no recruiting class to speak of right now.

Thoughts/Discussion

Impossible to know because you would have had different players instead....perhaps better, perhaps worse.  no way to know.

[bilsu]

I think we would not have gotten better players, because that is saying Buzz made our recruiting worse than it would have been. Crean was here long enough to have his own connections. He did, but he lost Inman, Swopshire and basically anyone from out east and midwest. Buzz saved the day by bringing in Texas players.

[mviale]

what about the Minn and Michigan pipelines.  I am sure, we could have pulled a rabbit out of the hat.

Michigan ~ Bell, Matthews, Grimm
Minn ~ Lott, Amorosa, Kinsella, Fitzgerald

[madtownwarrior]

About 6 months ago, I thought "holy crap, most of our recruits are because of this Buzz Williams guy - I hope we don't lose him."   Also, I wondered what happened to Crean's recruits lately after the big three...

[ChicosBailBonds]

Again, kind of silly.  DJ, Hayward, Mbakwe, McNeal, Matthews, Hazel, Acker, Saunders (never got in), Christopherson, etc had nothing to do with Buzz.

Buzz did a nice job on the kids coming in, then again we haven't seen one of them play yet either so let's wait and see.

If Buzz wasn't here, we would still be bringing in some good kids and most certainly we wouldn't have zero kids in the class as one person suggested...that's silly.

[mviale]

Yah like Niv Berkowitz.

[madtownwarrior]

Let's look at the last 2 classes and the next one...

Mbakwe - looks to be pretty good, Crean may have run him off
Christopherson - transfer under Crean, could he really play in the Big East?
Hazel - unknown

Class of 2007 - if crean stayed, maybe be nothing comes out of it

Fulce - all Buzz
O'Toule - all Buzz
Williams - all crean
Taylor - crean and Buzz?


Class of 2008 - at least half Buzz

Williams - all Buzz...



And go back a year earlier..

Hayward - Stud
Cubillian - average Big East player
Acker - super sub at best



Buzz added a lot to crean's recruiting to say the least

[madtownwarrior]

Or another way - after James, McNeal, Matthews, Burke and then Hayward - Crean's recruiting is weak...

[Pakuni]

Impossible to know because you would have had different players instead....perhaps better, perhaps worse.  no way to know.

In one sense, you're correct ... it is impossible to know for a fact that Fulce/Otule/Butler are better than what MU would have had in this situation sans Buzz. But we can make some reasonable inferences here.

The most obvious of those inferences is based on the fact Tom Crean himself believed that Fulce and Otule were better than anything else he could have landed in the fall. I think it's a very safe assumption that the former coach didn't give those guys LOIs only to appease Buzz. He did it because they were what he believed to be MU's best options. So, it's quite likely that without Buzz, MU would have been forced to settle for players whom, at least in the head coach's opinion, were lesser recruits.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Let's look at the last 2 classes and the next one...

Mbakwe - looks to be pretty good, Crean may have run him off
Christopherson - transfer under Crean, could he really play in the Big East?
Hazel - unknown

Class of 2007 - if crean stayed, maybe be nothing comes out of it

Fulce - all Buzz
O'Toule - all Buzz
Williams - all crean
Taylor - crean and Buzz?


Class of 2008 - at least half Buzz

Williams - all Buzz...



And go back a year earlier..

Hayward - Stud
Cubillian - average Big East player
Acker - super sub at best



Buzz added a lot to crean's recruiting to say the least

Scott just transferred to a Big 12 school....so he's not good enough for the Big East but is good enough for the Big 12?   


I'm not saying Buzz didn't add a lot to our recruiting, of course he did.  The problem is that you guys are making a zero sum argument.  If Buzz doesn't come to MU, who is here as the chief recruiter instead recruiting?  That's what we don't know and that's why it's a silly argument.  For all we know we get someone that recruits even better....or worse.  We have no way of knowing.  It's not like we wouldn't have hired someone in that position.

Yes, the recruits that Buzz was tied to seem good...we'll find out when they play, but I suspect they will be good.  Buzz did a very good job in that seat, that's what he's known for. That's what he was paid to do.

[mviale]

Time will tell about Fulce, Otule and E. Williams.  However, these guys would not be on the MU team less Buzz. 

Yes,  Crean would have recruited another Big man as he has done this with Amo, Barro, Fitz, Hazel and Burke. 

[ATWizJr]

yes, SC was not athletic enough to play in the Big East and we'll see how he does in the Big 12, but clearly, Iowa State offers SC a better chance for PT in the B12 than he would have had in the much tougher BE.  this transfer was anticipated by most of the board before Crean slunk out of town.

[ChicosBailBonds]

yes, SC was not athletic enough to play in the Big East and we'll see how he does in the Big 12, but clearly, Iowa State offers SC a better chance for PT in the B12 than he would have had in the much tougher BE.  this transfer was anticipated by most of the board before Crean slunk out of town.

I think you're mixing things up.  The Big East has nothing to do with it, the roster does.  SC may or may not have transferred, I've heard that he would stay if Crean was still here by some "experts" while other "experts" were saying he would leave.  To say most thought he would leave is a stretch.  Aside from that, if he did want to transfer it had to do with playing time on this MU team being guard heavy, not because it's the Big East.  SC could play at any number of Big East schools right now, just like he could at Big 12 schools.  You don't play for a conference, you play for a school and your playing time is dictated by the talent on that school's roster.

SC will now get the chance to play against Kansas, Kansas State, Texas, Baylor, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech among others.....he's a good enough player to be at the level he's at, and that includes most Big East schools, especially ones that don't have a logjam at the guard spot.

I remember a lot of similar comments about Novak until his senior year from folks saying he couldn't guard at the CUSA level, how was he going to do that at the Big East level, etc. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Time will tell about Fulce, Otule and E. Williams.  However, these guys would not be on the MU team less Buzz. 

Yes,  Crean would have recruited another Big man as he has done this with Amo, Barro, Fitz, Hazel and Burke. 

Don't you remember so many of the recruiting gurus explaining how good Amo, Fitz, Barro etc were.      

That's why I don't buy into most of what these guys say.  My favorites are always (they're not ranked in the top 100 but they are diamonds in the rough or "sleepers").  I see sleeper and I get nervous.  Sure, there are some but usually they are what they are.  Good, but limited.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I thought Crean was one of the best three recruiters in the country?

[ATWizJr]

hope you are right about sC as he seems to be a classy, quality, person, but I have my doubts.  maybe another year of getting bigger, stronger, better, and he'll be the man at Iowa State.  We'll see.

[Tulsa Warrior]

I think Chico raised the point if Buzz wasn't the chief recruiter this past season Crean would have had someone else in the position and Marquette would have picked up other players.....some might have been better than the ones Marquette signed.  That's fair but I think a good way of judging would have been to look at the Marquette staff over the past nine years.  Who were the best recruiters...the best closers...what was the coaching turnover?

We see a history of some gambles.  Some paid off others were a waste of time and effort.  It happens in all programs.  I think the bottom line is Crean had a great deal of trouble recruiting at Marquette.  He worked hard and scored with three prime in state talents...Diener, Novak and Matthews.  Otherwise when that dried up he started gambling more and more. 

Basketball talent in Wisconsin is not as deep in Houston, Chicago or New York.

Crean desperately needed someone with the talents of Buzz Williams.  At the same time would his ego accept that?  Lots of turnover in assistant coaches in the past nine years.

Crean, Williams and Marquette were a perfect storm for all parties.  A judgement on my part. Williams allows Crean to look more like a player in the recruiting world.  Williams ends up running his own shop at a high major program.  What does Marquette get?  A guy who is a better recruiter, hungier and fresher.  Someone who is out to prove himself at a head coach.

Marquette will have better talent on the floor.  Whether that translates to more wins is another issue.

Crean will find it easier to recruit at Indiana.  He'll be able to do the PR smooze and probably go on to have a long run.  Williams has his dream come true.  With three kids and all the years of moving around he'll have pressure to stay and make things work on his own.  You got a million dollar plus rollover contract and a wife who is probably saying "honey can we finally unpack?"

A perfect storm for all.

[bilsu]

In recruiting I think Crean was good at making the effort and identifying players under the radar. The trouble is he would lose those players once other schools became interested. Shuppert is a perfect example of this. He identified him before anyone else and did everything possible, but in the end he lost him. Crean was good in all aspects of recruiting except closing.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I thought Crean was one of the best three recruiters in the country?

My guess is you will probably see that in the next 5-10 years or so.  Regardless, he was either one of the better recruiters or one of the better coaches...had to be one or the other because you don't do what we did in the last 7 years with no talent or no coaching. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

In recruiting I think Crean was good at making the effort and identifying players under the radar. The trouble is he would lose those players once other schools became interested. Shuppert is a perfect example of this. He identified him before anyone else and did everything possible, but in the end he lost him. Crean was good in all aspects of recruiting except closing.

Agree...Crean was able to get on kids early in the process and then two years later schools that don't need to recruit (UNC, etc) just make one call and it's over.  Sucks, but that's the deal for some.

The rise of Wisconsin changed a lot of things as well.  When O'Neill was here, Wisconsin sucked ass.  Hell, Wisconsin sucked ass for 6 decades.  That's all changed now, so it's not as easy to get some of the Wisconsin recruits. 

I also think when you're talking about good closers, you have to see who it is you lost the recruit to.  Are you a bad closer when you lose a kid to UNC or Georgia Tech?  Or are you a good closer when you get a kid to come to MU instead of Minnesota?   Without taking those details into the equation, I believe it's a bit deceiving to say someone is a good closer or not.

The last 5 years we were finalists for kids that we haven't been finalists for in decades.  Kids that had Michigan State, North Carolina, Georgia Tech, Kansas, Wake Forest as their final choices.  We lost almost all of those kids, but I expected to lose all of those kids.  I was shocked we were even in the hunt for most of those kids.

Now, Buzz seems to be a "good closer".  But again, what does this mean?  Who are we beating out?  Mississippi State, Texas Tech, or is it Illinois and Wisconsin?  That's where it will get interesting.

[Wareagle]

Now, Buzz seems to be a "good closer".  But again, what does this mean?  Who are we beating out?  Mississippi State, Texas Tech, or is it Illinois and Wisconsin?  That's where it will get interesting.

This situation should be interesting as it plays out.  I think it will be particularly telling for MU's in-state recruiting to see where Johnnie Lacy goes.  There is no way UW@Madison is still seriously considering him, so it's between us and everyone else.  The next year, Flavien Davis provides another barometer to see where we are with Wisconsin high schoolers.