Baseball Pissing Match

[TallTitan34]

Come on, Titan, this isn't the first time something like this has happened in baseball.

Yeah but the other times the manager generally lets the media know what happened.

Ned better bench Fielder for a game or two or he has lost all control of this team like he did last year. 

[robmufan]

I want to know what happened....Ned, nor any of the brewers are my neighbor!

*Knock Knock*!

[mosarsour]

What's with this kid having himself a brew at Wrigley Field?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x63pte_beer-kid-at-wrigley_shortfilms

[reinko]

Is giving 8 year old kids Old Style standard practice for yuppie north siders? 

Also PTM, admit it, that's you.

[🏀]

Is giving 8 year old kids Old Style standard practice for yuppie north siders? 

Also PTM, admit it, that's you.

I saw this a couple weeks ago, hilarious. However, reinko, judging by the lack of advertisement on the cup, it's not Old Style. It would be from one of the speciality beer stands selling PBR, Schlitz, Special Ex, or Sharps.

Also, I will admit one day, at that age, my son can have a sip of my beer. Especially if I have seats that close to the field.

[TallTitan34]

Is giving 8 year old kids Old Style standard practice for yuppie north siders? 

How soon we forget this:


I'd rather my 8 year old son have a sip of beer than my 3 year old daughter be doused in it by 24 screaming men.

[🏀]

The most common and overused argument stupid people make when attempting to creatively make fun of the Cubs or their fans usually involves the words "1908" or "Bartman." And while its true that the Cubs have pretty much blown for the last 100 years, the Cubs (at least in the last 30-40 years or so) have pretty regularly had at least one or two players per generation that provided really solid entertainment.

This is emphasized in the ESPN ratings grab known as "Baseball Tonight's All-Time Franchise Players." Its roughly the entertainment equivalent of "Who's Now" or "Titletown, U.S.A."; however, it provides an interesting comparison for those fans (especially Brewers fans) who want to stupidly criticize the Cubs for their 100 years of futility.

Let's take a look at the Cubs' list:

Cap Anson
Ernie Banks
Mordecai Brown
Mark Grace
Gabby Hartnett
Ferguson Jenkins
Ryne Sandberg
Ron Santo
Sammy Sosa
Billy Williams

Out of a list of 10 players, that's 7 Hall of Famers, 2 likely Hall of Famers (Santo and Sosa), and one guy in the Honorary Wrigleyville Ass-Getting Hall of Fame* (Grace). Not too bad...not to mention guys like Andre Dawson and Hack Wilson didn't even make the list.

NOW...

for fun...

let's compare that with the list of the team whose fans talked a whole lot of crap leading up to this week, the Milwaukee Brewers:

Mike Caldwell
Cecil Cooper
Jim Gantner
Teddy Higuera
Geoff Jenkins
Paul Molitor
Ben Ogilve
Dan Plesac
Gorman Thomas
Robin Yount

Okay, now that's one...two hall of famers, about six middle of the road offensive players, and Dan Plesac. Dan Mother F'n Plesac. A guy who, while he was a closer for a little over half his Brewers' career, was a middle reliever for the majority of his baseball career.

Let me write that again: In the entire Brewers' history, there weren't ten players better than a middle reliever.

Of the other players on the list, I don't think anything needs to be said about Teddy Higuera or Geoff Jenkins. My only question regarding these guys is how the hell did Jeromy Burnitz not make the list? And how sad is that last question?

So for all the crap Cubs fans have had to put up with over the last 100 years of bad teams, at least we can take a little solace in the number of truly great players that have come through town. And the team whose ass the Cubs kicked this week has Geoff Jenkins.

Ahh...screw that. We've sucked. For a long time. But other teams have sucked worse.

Borrowed from Five Outs to Go.

[jmayer1]

Obviously the Cubs are going to have a much larger collection of great players since they have been around 93 years longer.  But in their short 39 year existence, the Brewers have gotten 44 seasons from guys who ended being in the Hall of Fame. 

During that same time period the Cubs got 41 season from players who were hall of famers.  Of course, the Cubs also had Dawson for 6 years (who should get in eventually), Sosa for a ton of years (would be first ballot if not for suspicion of roids), and Santo for 6 of those years (who will prolly be elected by the veterans committe in the next few years).

So, the Cubs did have more high level talent over those years, but the gap isn't as big as PTM makes it seem. 

Also just to note, Pleasac closed for the Brewers 5 of his 7 years there and was a 3 time all-star (the same all star appearances as Mark Grace, his time's version of Sean Casey (and obviously I'm not saying Pleasac was anywhere near as good as Grace, just pointing out a fact).  Cecil Cooper was a 5 time all star and a pretty feared hitter back in his day.  Ogilve and Thomas had some huge years but weren't at their peaks very long.  The rest of the guys (Jenkins, Ganter, Higuera) were all pretty decent players at points in their careers but definitely aren't elite.   Rollie Fingers also had an MVP season for the Brewers and Aaron finished off his career as part of the Crew.

Of course, over that same time period the Cards have gotten 42 seasons from hall of famers, plus however long Pujols plays and the 4 years from McGwire, but won 2 world series and appeared in 3 others.  So, I guess talent might be great (on paper the Cubs had more than the Cards) but it don't mean much if you can't win ball games.

[TallTitan34]

Obviously the Cubs are going to have a much larger collection of great players since they have been around 93 years longer. 

Really you should have a third of the great players we have.  You don't.

The greatest Brewer of all time are sure Hall of Famer is Shouse! 

Shouse!  Shouse!  Let it aloud!  These are the things I can do without!  Come on!  I'm talking to you, come on!

Shouse is the only Brewer I like if you can't tell.

[jmayer1]

Really you should have a third of the great players we have.  You don't.

Oh, so you're trying to compare times in early 1900s when there were 8 teams and everybody had multiple hall of famers on their roster to the current period of expansion?  Good argument.  If you could read, you would see I said the Cubs have had more talent than the Brewers, but the disparity is not as great as you and ptm would have you believe.  I guess I thought you would actually read my response and put together an arguement based on statistics and facts but obviously I was wrong. 

Its pretty easy to reply with some snippy comment, anyone can do it.  I guess asking you to have an good banter back and forth is too much.

[TallTitan34]

Ok we will do this.  We will only compare the two clubs after 1969.  How does that sound?

Mike Caldwell < Greg Maddux, Fergie Jenkins
Cecil Cooper < Ernie Banks
Jim Gantner < Ron Santo
Teddy Higuera < Bruce Sutter
Geoff Jenkins < Alfonso Soriano
Paul Molitor < Billy Williams
Ben Ogilve (I don't even know who this guy is?)
Dan Plesac < Dan Plesac (We had him too), Dennis Eckersly
Gorman Thomas < Sammy Sosa
Robin Yount < Ryne Sandberg
Rollie Fingers < Goose Gossage

[🏀]

Disrespecting Robin Yount will get you shot.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

Ben Ogilvie played and started in a World Series.  More than I can say for almost all of the Cubs players that you posted.

[TallTitan34]

What position is he?  I'll take Palmero, Keith Moreland, Mark Grace, Joe Carter, hell Joe Girardi over him.

Josh Fogg also started in a World Series if that means anything.

[SaintPaulWarrior]

Ben Ogilvie....Just letting you know who he is.  I have no allegiance to him whatsoever.  Also a 3 time All Star.


                     G      AB    R    H     2B  3B  HR   RBI   SB   BB  SO   BA    OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB
16 Seasons    1754 5913  784 1615 277 33 235  901  87  560 852  .273  .336  .450  118   2663  21  69 105 

[jmayer1]

Ok we will do this.  We will only compare the two clubs after 1969.  How does that sound?

Mike Caldwell < Greg Maddux, Fergie Jenkins
Cecil Cooper < Ernie Banks
Jim Gantner < Ron Santo
Teddy Higuera < Bruce Sutter
Geoff Jenkins < Alfonso Soriano
Paul Molitor < Billy Williams
Ben Ogilve (I don't even know who this guy is?)
Dan Plesac < Dan Plesac (We had him too), Dennis Eckersly
Gorman Thomas < Sammy Sosa
Robin Yount < Ryne Sandberg
Rollie Fingers < Goose Gossage

If you really believe this you are either an unabashed cubs homer who is not worth having a baseball conversation with or somebody who doesn't know/understand baseball and its history very well.

First of all, you should do better comparisons.

One year of Gossage over 4 years of Rollie including 2 times an as and one year where he was not only the cy young winner but also mvp.  The better comparison would be Rollie = Sutter and Pleasac > Goose's one year.

Soriano's 1.5 years vs Jenkins career.  Soriano is the better player but he hasn't played very long for the Cubs and thats what the argument is.

Ernie Banks is the best player on this list but his last 3 years aren't better than Cecil's time as a brewer.

Molitor and Williams are completely different types of players.  I would say Molitor = Sandberg and Yount = Williams but those could prolly both go either way.

From the pathetic argument you bring up, it seems like you aren't really a baseball fan, just a cubs fan and that's fine.

[TallTitan34]

Yeah I'll take Grace.  All time hits leader of the 90's I believe.  Which is remarkable considering Towy Gwynn was around then.  

[TallTitan34]

If you really believe this you are either an unabashed cubs homer who is not worth having a baseball conversation with or somebody who doesn't know/understand baseball and its history very well.

First of all, you should do better comparisons.

One year of Gossage over 4 years of Rollie including 2 times an as and one year where he was not only the cy young winner but also mvp.  The better comparison would be Rollie = Sutter and Pleasac > Goose's one year.

Soriano's 1.5 years vs Jenkins career.  Soriano is the better player but he hasn't played very long for the Cubs and thats what the argument is.

Ernie Banks is the best player on this list but his last 3 years aren't better than Cecil's time as a brewer.

Molitor and Williams are completely different types of players.  I would say Molitor = Sandberg and Yount = Williams but those could prolly both go either way.

From the pathetic argument you bring up, it seems like you aren't really a baseball fan, just a cubs fan and that's fine.

Erroneous!  Erroneous!  Erroneous on all accounts!  No way is Robin Yount equal to Billy Williams!  Are you kidding me?

EDIT:  And are you really going to try to argue Jenkins over Soriano?

[jmayer1]

Erroneous!  Erroneous!  Erroneous on all accounts!  No way is Robin Yount equal to Billy Williams!  Are you kidding me?

EDIT:  And are you really going to try to argue Jenkins over Soriano?

Williams hit a lot more homers but Yount played at a much more premium position.  Williams made more all star teams but Yount won 2 mvps while Williams never did.  All their other stats are pretty comparable.  If a gun was put to my head, I would prolly say Williams by a hair but its close.

No, I was just pointing out you had some pretty stupid comparisons in there.  Obviously Soriano is better for his career, but definitely isn't just as a cub.

[wadesworld]

If you really believe this you are either an unabashed cubs homer who is not worth having a baseball conversation with

95% of Cubs (and Chicago sports...Bears and Bulls) fans...

[TallTitan34]

You realize you just agreed with every comparison I made.

[Mayor McCheese]

Ok we will do this.  We will only compare the two clubs after 1969.  How does that sound?

Mike Caldwell < Greg Maddux, Fergie Jenkins
Cecil Cooper < Ernie Banks
Jim Gantner < Ron Santo
Teddy Higuera < Bruce Sutter
Geoff Jenkins < Alfonso Soriano
Paul Molitor < Billy Williams
Ben Ogilve (I don't even know who this guy is?)
Dan Plesac < Dan Plesac (We had him too), Dennis Eckersly
Gorman Thomas < Sammy Sosa
Robin Yount < Ryne Sandberg
Rollie Fingers < Goose Gossage

can you really count Greg Maddux as a Cub... look at his Cubs statistics, come on, that would be like if the Brewers would count CC Sabathia as a Brewer when it comes to him retiring.  The same goes for Dennis Eckersly and most likely Goose Gossage.

Yup, the Cubs have bigger names then the Brewers, thats fine, thats what money buys, but we both still have the same amount of World Series rings since 1970.  0.

[RawdogDX]

95% of Cubs (and Chicago sports...Bears and Bulls) fans...

ANd your ability to get mad at people and yell at them has convinced me that you are extremely knowlegeable.

[jmayer1]

You realize you just agreed with every comparison I made.

You acted like comparing Williams to Yount was like comparing Babe Ruth to Melky Cabrera.  If you would ever, ever explain one of you points, maybe I could understand the point you were trying to get across.

I still don't know what your point is about Soriano and Jenkins.  If you are arguing that Soriano's cubs career is better than Jenkins' brewers career, you are an idiot.  If you are saying that Soriano's cubs career is obviously not better than Jenkins' brewers career, we agree and you admit it was a dumb comparison to make.

[jmayer1]

95% of Cubs (and Chicago sports...Bears and Bulls) fans...

Its 95% of pretty much all fans, regardless of team or city.