Baseball Pissing Match

[MarquetteFan94]

Go ahead, call me a cheesehead.  FIB might not be clever, but at least it means something.  Cheesehead?  Really?  Also why are you on a Marquette forum then...obviously you have some sort of cheesehead in you to root for a Wisconsin team.  Why do all Chicago kids come up to Marquette for college and then complain CONSTANTLY about how much Wisconsin sucks.  GO TO SCHOOL IN ILLINOIS THEN, PLEASE!  If it sucks so bad don't come here for school

Wow.  Honestly man...get worked up.  It's really very simple....I'm on this very well run forum because I attended Marquette University and I have an affection for everything related to Marquette basketball.  As you can see, this very well run forum offers its users "The Superbar" where one can weigh in on a variety of non-basketball topics.  Since I am from the metropolitan Chicago area (similar to about 40% of Marquette students) I take note and interest in those topics which may involve one of my beloved Chicago sports teams...namely the Cubs, Bears and Bulls....so you can imagine how a thread entitled "The Offical Cubs & Brewers Pissing Match" may have caught my eye.

I attended Marquette to receive a great education while also living away from home in a comfortable setting...so I decided on Chicago's northernmost suburb.....and immediately moved back to Chicago.

Does that answer your question?

Now, back to baseball please.....

[wadesworld]

Now, back to baseball please.....

OK serious question, off topic but just wondering:  Who is better, the Red Sox or the Cubs?  And that's not just for MarquetteFan to answer, I'm asking everyone.

[🏀]

And one less World Series in the last 100.

When did the Brewers go to the World Series?

[coach85]

Wadesworld, with all the anger you direct towards " FIBS" perhaps you should consider changing your username.  Isn't Wade a FIB?  And, wasn't Wayne's World based on a character from Aurora, ILLINOIS?

[robmufan]

  And, wasn't Wayne's World based on a character from Aurora, ILLINOIS?

Which is a suburb of Chicago, EXCELLENT!

[wadesworld]

Wadesworld, with all the anger you direct towards " FIBS" perhaps you should consider changing your username.  Isn't Wade a FIB?  And, wasn't Wayne's World based on a character from Aurora, ILLINOIS?

No, Wade no longer lives in Illinois.  He's also not an ignorant b!tch, but he is freaking good.  And it's more about Wade than Wayne's World, kind of indifferent about that movie...

[wadesworld]

When did the Brewers go to the World Series?

1982, 74 years after the Cubs last went to it.

Again, as we are "back to baseball," who is better, the Red Sox or the Cubs?  I just want to know what everyone thinks on here.  For the record, I believe the Red Sox are a lot better, so there's my answer.

[MU B2002]

And it's more about Wade than Wayne's World, kind of indifferent about that movie...

But how do you feel about the sketch on which the movie(s) were based?

[MarquetteFan94]

1982, 74 years after the Cubs last went to it.

Again, as we are "back to baseball," who is better, the Red Sox or the Cubs?  I just want to know what everyone thinks on here.  For the record, I believe the Red Sox are a lot better, so there's my answer.

Shocking.  It's too early to say one team is better than another right now....with a healthy Soriano and an extra arm (and potentially another bat) that we'll undoubtedly add by the trading deadling I like our chances. 

The Cubs last went to the World Series in 1945....not that we're proud of that of course.  Although we have been to playoffs 5 times since the Brewers were there last....progress.  Not great, but progress.

[wadesworld]

Shocking.  It's too early to say one team is better than another right now....with a healthy Soriano and an extra arm (and potentially another bat) that we'll undoubtedly add by the trading deadling I like our chances. 

The Cubs last went to the World Series in 1945....not that we're proud of that of course.  Although we have been to playoffs 5 times since the Brewers were there last....progress.  Not great, but progress.

Fair enough.  I just really don't think anybody's close to the Red Sox at this point in the season.  It's June, so a lot can and will happen by the end of the year, including injuries, trades, call-ups, send-downs, etc. so somebody may catch them, but they are just unbelievable.  I think they're the best team in baseball without a healthy David Ortiz, and if he can come back healthy it just makes them that much better.

[robmufan]

One thing Boston has going for it, though I think the Rays top the league in it, is speed.  Speed never slumps!

[gjreda]

The Cubs have scored more runs than the Red Sox (389 vs. 376) in three less games played and also rely less on the long ball (87 for the Sox vs. 76 for the Cubs).  The Cubs also win BA (.282 vs .279), OBP (.360 vs .355), and only slightly lose OPS (.804 vs .800).  It seems to me that their offenses are essentially a push right now.  Over the course of the season though, I'll give the advantage to the Red Sox.  However, the comparison isn't exactly equal since Red Sox play with a DH in Ortiz who accounts for a significant offensive threat.  I know he's on the DL right now, but it's a pretty big advantage when someone as worthless of a fielder as Ortiz is still allowed to hit.  The Red Sox get to play with both Youkilis and Ortiz - that's a pretty good deal for them.  I know all of us can agree that the DH is a terrible rule.

The Cubs also win team ERA with a 3.60 ERA compared to the Red Sox 3.84.

The Cubs starting pitching is slightly worse than the Red Sox with a 3.81 ERA for the Cubs' starters and a 3.76 for the Sox.  The Sox also have a slight advantage in BAA - .240 vs .244.  The biggest advantage is of course that the Sox starting pitching is eating up a lot more innings than the Cubs - 445 vs. 413.  -  Advantage: Red Sox

As a Cubs fan, this is my biggest concern with the Cubs this year - The starters are not eating up innings and Lou has been using the bullpen quite a lot; Marmol in particular.  It's become a running joke between my brothers and I that any time something isn't going well for the Cubs pitching, Lou calls the pen and tells them to get Marmol up.  I was particularly bothered during the win the other night in Toronto when Lou felt the need to bring Marmol in with a 7 run lead.  The kid is fairly young and pitching his first full season in the majors.  I think he's going to have a case of dead arm come September if he keeps pitching at this rate.

Breaking it down further, the Cubs have the much better bullpen with a bullpen ERA of 3.24 compared to the Red Sox 4.00 bullpen ERA.  The Cubs bullpen also has the Red Sox in BA against - .240 vs .253.  The Cubs also win the K/9 battle in the bullpen - .92 K/9 for the Cubs relievers compared to the Red Sox .86 K/9.  My sole reason for including that stat is because it's obviously especially important for relievers as they are often entering the game with runners on and when strikeouts are needed at times.  -  Advantage: Cubs

The Red Sox are a slightly better fielding team having committed two less errors than the Cubs and have a slightly better fielding percentage (.984 vs .982).

Looking deeper though, Lee, Theriot, Edmonds/Johnson, Fukudome and whoever is playing LF for the Cubs all have greater RFs than their Red Sox counterparts.  Soto also throws out a greater percentages of runners than Varitek.  So I would say that fielding is essentially a push as well.

Now, are the Red Sox better than the Cubs?  Not right now they aren't according to their records.  However, overall I think the Red Sox are the better team even though their record probably won't show it since they have to consistently go up against the Rays and Yankees this season.  That being said, I think the Cubs are going to consistently be a top five team in the MLB this year - something that unfortunately will not be happening for the Brewers.

[wadesworld]

Now, are the Red Sox better than the Cubs?  Not right now they aren't according to their records.  However, overall I think the Red Sox are the better team even though their record probably won't show it since they have to consistently go up against the Rays and Yankees this season.  That being said, I think the Cubs are going to consistently be a top five team in the MLB this year - something that unfortunately will not be happening for the Brewers.

I understand looking at it the way you did, but as you say here, they play against different opponents.  The Cubs not only play the NL Central much more, but the AL is much tougher than the NL as a whole.  I think it is much tougher to be 20 games above .500 in the AL than it is to be 20 games above .500 in the NL.  I will admit that 20 games above .500, in  either league, at any point in the season, is quite impressive, especially by mid June, but I think if you switch the teams' schedules (Red Sox play the Cubs' schedule and Cubs play the Red Sox's schedule), I think you're looking at the Red Sox being 20 games over .500 and the Cubs being in 2nd place in their division (behind the Rays).  I think to compare an NL team to an AL team (which is hard to do as it is) you have to look at player by player rather than stat by stat.  Overall I think the Red Sox are better, especially considering they have dominated the Rays this year and the Cubs lost to them (I understand 1 game, or even 1 series, can be a fluke, so we'll see how the rest of the series goes).  I don't think you can decide who is a better team just looking at records, especially comparing teams in different divisions and especially different leagues, as they do not play the same opponents the same amount of times.  You're probably right, the Cubs will probably make it at least to the NLCS this season (top 4 in the MLB) and the Brewers will probably not, but I really believe if the Brewers fire Ned Yost (which I don't think they will this year, unfortunately) with enough time to do damage, that they will win the Wild Card.  Unfortunately, if they do win the Wild Card, they would most likely play the Phillies, and I'm not very optimistic about beating them in a 5 game series.

[gjreda]

I will admit that 20 games above .500, in  either league, at any point in the season, is quite impressive, especially by mid June, but I think if you switch the teams' schedules (Red Sox play the Cubs' schedule and Cubs play the Red Sox's schedule), I think you're looking at the Red Sox being 20 games over .500 and the Cubs being in 2nd place in their division (behind the Rays).  I think to compare an NL team to an AL team (which is hard to do as it is) you have to look at player by player rather than stat by stat.  Overall I think the Red Sox are better, especially considering they have dominated the Rays this year and the Cubs lost to them (I understand 1 game, or even 1 series, can be a fluke, so we'll see how the rest of the series goes).

So you believe the Cubs would be in second place to the Rays, but then argue that in order to compare an AL team to a NL team, you have to compare them on a position by position basis?  The player vs. player comparison of the Cubs vs. the Rays would not even be close.  Also, you compare the Red Sox nine games against the Rays to the Cubs one run loss against them (against their ace no less)?  Really?  Are the Cardinals better than the Rays because they won their series against them?

It seems like there is some seriously flawed logic going on in your head.

Also, a little paragraph structure in your posts would help.  I'm not trying to be a dick there - they are seriously hard to read.

[drewm88]

Wadesworld I've been reading this thread since it started early in the season. In my humblest of opinions, you are ruining it. Please chill out. Even just a little.

Also, we've been to the World Series 8 times in the past 100 years. Get your facts straight before you talk smack repeatedly.

[Mayor McCheese]

As a Brewer fan, and one of the original Brewer fans on this thread, I agree, wadesworld, you are just shouting random facts(that are sometimes false), that just clogging this thread up.  It's a pissing match, not a bitching match.

Also, liking the Red Sox when you live in Wisconsin is a lot worse than a guy from Illinois enjoying Cubs baseball...  hey, when did "the nation" let you jump that bandwagon?

Is there anything worse in sports then ESPN calling the Red Sox "the nation" over and over, most annoying thing, even more annoying then a Fukudome headband.

[wadesworld]

As a Brewer fan, and one of the original Brewer fans on this thread, I agree, wadesworld, you are just shouting random facts(that are sometimes false), that just clogging this thread up.  It's a pissing match, not a bitching match.

Also, liking the Red Sox when you live in Wisconsin is a lot worse than a guy from Illinois enjoying Cubs baseball...  hey, when did "the nation" let you jump that bandwagon?

Is there anything worse in sports then ESPN calling the Red Sox "the nation" over and over, most annoying thing, even more annoying then a Fukudome headband.

A pissing match and a bitching match are different Tom?  And when did I ever say that the Illinois people can't like the Cubs baseball?  Also, my grandparents are from Boston and I've liked them, and other Boston sports franchises, for my whole life, I am thankful I was "allowed to jump on the bandwagon."

[wadesworld]

So you believe the Cubs would be in second place to the Rays, but then argue that in order to compare an AL team to a NL team, you have to compare them on a position by position basis?  The player vs. player comparison of the Cubs vs. the Rays would not even be close.  Also, you compare the Red Sox nine games against the Rays to the Cubs one run loss against them (against their ace no less)?  Really?  Are the Cardinals better than the Rays because they won their series against them?

It seems like there is some seriously flawed logic going on in your head.

Also, a little paragraph structure in your posts would help.  I'm not trying to be a dick there - they are seriously hard to read.

It wouldn't be close?  Respectfully disagree.  Also, the Cubs have now lost twice in a row to them...but I DID say that it is hard to even come up with any conclusions based on just one regular season series, which you would have seen had you not picked out only what works for your argument.

I pretty much said throughout that paragraph that the Cubs are very impressive right now, but of course Cubs fans look at the part where I say other teams may be better and think that's putting the Cubs down.  The Red Sox are the defending World Champions and are at top of the toughest division in baseball...saying they are better than the Cubs should (and would to any person who ISN'T a Cubs fan) NOT be that big of a stretch.  It's DEBATABLE, and I'm on here DEBATING about it, and having a TON of fun doing it because it's not even possible to get a legitimate DEBATE about Cubs vs. any other team out of the Cubs fans.

Sorry, I didn't know I was writing my English 1 final paper an muscoop.com.

[wadesworld]

Well ladies and gentlemen, I HATE to do this to you because I KNOW you'll miss me dearly, but I'm off to California in 9 hours so I won't be on here at all for the next week, and then I won't really feel like reading any of what is said so I'm done on this thread...

LET'S GO WARRIORS!

[gjreda]

Since you're off to Cali and won't be reading up on the thread, I'm not going to take the time to do the in-depth comparison.  I will say though that I don't see how you can say it'd be extremely close.  All you need to do is ask yourself who you would rather have on your team at each position.  The only player from the Rays that I would take over their Cubs counterpart is Upton.  I'll be conservative and say that Soto and Navarro are a push (if you want to talk about "career years", Navarro hit .227 last year, and .274 through the minors).  I can understand taking Iwamura over DeRosa too and have really liked what I've seen of Iwamura, but give me DeRosa's versatility.  Longoria is going to be great too, but right now, no one would take him over Ramirez.  Kazmir is a stud too, but I think he is a push with Zambrano (try to strip away your Brewer hatred for Zambrano for a second... all of us Cubs fans know that every fan of every team that isn't the Cubs has to hate Big Z.  I probably would too if I wasn't a Cubs fan).

Also, we all can agree that ESPN has a significant ESPN bias, correct?  Well they've believed the Cubs are the best team in the MLB for four straight weeks now.  I know, who cares about the rankings.  I agree with everyone about that.  However, these are guys who watch and analyze baseball for a living, usually with Yanks and Sox sunglasses on, and right now, they believe the Cubs are the best team in baseball.  It's clear that us "FIBs" aren't the only people believing the Cubs are amongst the best in baseball and just as good as the Red Sox.

And no one was asking you to write your English 1 paper.  Just breaking things into paragraphs generally makes things a lot easier to read.

Enjoy Cali.  This pissing match will still be alive and well when you get back.

[wadesworld]

Since you're off to Cali and won't be reading up on the thread, I'm not going to take the time to do the in-depth comparison.  I will say though that I don't see how you can say it'd be extremely close.  All you need to do is ask yourself who you would rather have on your team at each position.  The only player from the Rays that I would take over their Cubs counterpart is Upton.  I'll be conservative and say that Soto and Navarro are a push (if you want to talk about "career years", Navarro hit .227 last year, and .274 through the minors).  I can understand taking Iwamura over DeRosa too and have really liked what I've seen of Iwamura, but give me DeRosa's versatility.  Longoria is going to be great too, but right now, no one would take him over Ramirez.  Kazmir is a stud too, but I think he is a push with Zambrano (try to strip away your Brewer hatred for Zambrano for a second... all of us Cubs fans know that every fan of every team that isn't the Cubs has to hate Big Z.  I probably would too if I wasn't a Cubs fan).

Also, we all can agree that ESPN has a significant ESPN bias, correct?  Well they've believed the Cubs are the best team in the MLB for four straight weeks now.  I know, who cares about the rankings.  I agree with everyone about that.  However, these are guys who watch and analyze baseball for a living, usually with Yanks and Sox sunglasses on, and right now, they believe the Cubs are the best team in baseball.  It's clear that us "FIBs" aren't the only people believing the Cubs are amongst the best in baseball and just as good as the Red Sox.

And no one was asking you to write your English 1 paper.  Just breaking things into paragraphs generally makes things a lot easier to read.

Enjoy Cali.  This pissing match will still be alive and well when you get back.

I don't really have the time or the motivation to look in depth about the comparisons between players on each team, but fair enough.  I will say, though, that Zambrano is amazing, as is Kazmir.  I HATE Zambrano, but he has unbelievable stuff.  If he could control his emotions a bit more he'd be the best pitcher in baseball every year, and he's close every year as it is.  I admit good players when I see them, I have no problem doing that, I just don't like all players.

I really, honestly, couldn't care less about what espn.com considers when it comes to their rankings.  They also do their rankings largely on the "what have you done for me now."  Just because they have you ranked #1 in the Power Rankings does not mean that they think you are going to win the World Series, they only believe you are playing the best baseball at this point, which you are.  I never said I don't believe that the Cubs are among the best in baseball, but I will say I'm not sure they have as good of a chance as the Red Sox.  If you look at my post a little while ago, I said that the Cubs more than likely WILL finish top 5 in baseball, because they more than likely WILL go to the NLCS, at WORST.  Where in those last 2 sentences do you see me saying that the Cubs are not one of the best teams in baseball?

I will do that from now on.

And thank you, I will enjoy it.

LET'S GO WARRIORS (at least we can all, hopefully, agree on that).

[muwarrior87]

too bad for the Cubbies he's going to be out for a bit it sounds like. Time for the Brewers to close the gap w/ Zambrano out for now.

[robmufan]

too bad for the Cubbies he's going to be out for a bit it sounds like. Time for the Brewers to close the gap w/ Zambrano out for now.

Name your sources, I haven't seen anything come out yet. 

[RJax55]

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/06/hart-hit-in-hea.html

Rob - Here is an update from the Trib. Looks like even if the MRI doesn't show anything, Big Z still will be missing his next few starts.

[muwarrior87]

just going off a hunch. It seems like a bit unnecessary to have him fly back early when they are coming back to Chicago after tonight's game to play the Chi-sox.  Dunno how often that would be done for simple 'shoulder stiffness' unless Lou or one of the team trainers thought it was more serious than that and deserved immediate attention and couldn't wait a day or two especially with an extended home series coming up, and I count at the White Sox in there since it's basically no travel.

We'll see what the MRI reveals tomorrow.