Baseball Pissing Match

[NavinRJohnson]

This was definitely done by the Brewers to ruin his service time.  If it wasn't they would have brought him back

The MLBPA needs to look into it, otherwise the Brewers will set a dangerous precedent.  Any small market team will just be able to send their star player down to avoid him becoming a free agent. 

They can look at it all they want, and they can save themselves some time and start with the labor agreement, which is where it will end.

The Brewers didn't send down their star player, they sent down their woefully underperforming player in an effort to boost his trade value, at a time they were clinging to whatever playoff hopes they had. The only person who's needs would have been served by sending him down a day later or bringing him back a day earlier would have been JJ Hardy's. That extra year probably doubles his trade value (whatever it that is).

All the Brewers did was abide by one of the few rules that teams can actually take advantage of in the labor agreement. Now teams can't even do that without being called on the carpet? JJ Hardy doesn't have to like it, but just as teams have to watch free agents walk away, in some cases getting nothing in return, that's the way it is. Hardy also could have prevented it. As people seem to want to ignore, had he been hitting .280 instead of .220, he never would have been sent down. This was about the plummeting trade value of a player who's replacement was ready and waiting. Did JJ Hardy get screwed in the deal? Maybe (I'm not sure they didn't actually do him a favor by giving him another year to prove he can play again before he goes to FA). Do MLB teams get screwed the the FA rules all the time? They sure do.

[NavinRJohnson]

Free Agency is the most valuable thing in sports, and the team manipulated that. Whether you think it's right or wrong (based on Hardy's performance), it is inherently wrong and the MLBPA will have an issue with this.

How is it inherently wrong? The team manipulated nothing. Why do the rules only apply to the players? As I said, the MLBPA can have all the issue with it they want...its their contract. Hardy was a .220 hitter. If he was not so pathetic, he never would have been sent down. His terrible play gave them the opportunity. The Brewers did what the contract allowed for, that they felt was in the best interest of the organization. Neither you, nor JJ, nor the MLBPA, or anyone else has to like it, or think its fair...both sides signed the contract. Now people are gonna bitch and moan when a team actually tries to use it for the benefit of the team? Spare me.

If this was strictly about service time, Yovanni Gallardo would have been sent down right along with him, but they didn't do that. Wonder why.

[jmayer1]

Well yeah Holliday helps but I don't think he will make that big of an impact.

Care to revise?  Obviously they have been pitching great lately but Holliday has been nothing short of phenomenal since coming over. 

Of course, hindsight is 20-20 and this nice little run guarantees nothing in the playoffs but this looks like a pretty good move for the Cards.  However, if they flop in the playoffs, can't resign him/doesn't produce up to his next contract, and Wallace hits 40 homers down the line it won't be.

[wadesworld]

The Brewers absolutely did it to keep him from becoming FA eligible for an extra year so he has higher trade value. But they also now have a MUCH better SS starting for us.  What Hardy brought to the table was a great glove with no range and great arm strength and decent power, no average, and no speed on the bases. What Escobar brings is a great glove, arm, and range, good average and great speed. Why should we keep playing Hardy and blocking Escobar? If we were bringing up a terrible
minor leaguer for a guy hitting .280 or if Hardy was killing the ball in AAA it'd be a different story, but he was batting .230 in the majors and was batting .240 in the minors. If he isn't performing why should he be in the majors? Makes no sense.

[GOMU1104]

How is it inherently wrong? The team manipulated nothing. Why do the rules only apply to the players? As I said, the MLBPA can have all the issue with it they want...its their contract. Hardy was a .220 hitter. If he was not so pathetic, he never would have been sent down. His terrible play gave them the opportunity. The Brewers did what the contract allowed for, that they felt was in the best interest of the organization. Neither you, nor JJ, nor the MLBPA, or anyone else has to like it, or think its fair...both sides signed the contract. Now people are gonna bitch and moan when a team actually tries to use it for the benefit of the team? Spare me.

If this was strictly about service time, Yovanni Gallardo would have been sent down right along with him, but they didn't do that. Wonder why.

JJ had been struggling all year, yet the wait until the last possible day to send him down, and then call him up the instant the 20 days have passed?

If you dont see what the motivation was here, then again, you dont get it.

The MLBPA is already seriously looking at the clubs for collusion during last off-season, dont think they wont address this.

[NavinRJohnson]

If you dont see what the motivation was here, then again, you dont get it.

The MLBPA is already seriously looking at the clubs for collusion during last off-season, dont think they wont address this.

Where did I say I didn't see the motivation? The motivation and timing is obvious. My problem is with people like you inventing some sort of righteous indignation that the Brewers actually did what was well within their rights under the union agreement, for the good of their club. Again, had Hardy been hitting .280 instead of .220 it never would have happened.

Why didn't they send Yovanni Gallardo down at the same time as Hardy? His ability and service time is and will be waaaayyyy more valuable than JJ Hardy's will ever be. Could it have something to do with the 3-ish ERA, and lack of a better alternative?

You and the MLBPA can bitch and moan, and 'address this' all you want, but you might want to read the labor agreement before you cry foul.

BTW, everyone does realize that by making the move they made, they also started the FA clock on Escobar, right? Of course nobody cares about that because evil Brewer ownership is just out to screw JJ Hardy.

[GOMU1104]

You and the MLBPA can bitch and moan, and 'address this' all you want, but you might want to read the labor agreement before you cry foul.

I have a pretty good understanding of the MLB/MLBPA Labor Agreement, and I know what I know, through various discussions with different MLB officials. Neither side is excited that this happened.

While the title of the thread includes "Pissing Match," I am not going to continue because it's not worth it.

[Hards Alumni]

meaning you know when you are whooped.

[GOMU1104]

meaning you know when you are whooped.

Theres just no convincing some people.

[NavinRJohnson]

Neither side is excited that this happened.

Good for them! Who cares? I guess the MLBPA won't roll over like they usually do when negotiating the next agreement. Oh wait...


1. Best for the Milwaukee Brewers baseball organization?

A. Keeping a struggling hitter in the MLB in order to protect his FA time line while his trade value craters.
B. Send struggling player to AAA, adding a year of control to increase his trade value, and clear the way for the organization's top prospect.

2. People with the ability to make the decision above?

A. The player in question, The MLBPA
B. The Milwaukee Brewers

3. People who have to like the decision above?

A. The player in question, and the MLBPA
B. Nobody!

Hint: B is the correct answer to all three.

[NavinRJohnson]

Theres just no convincing some people.

Please, educate me where I'm wrong. What aspect of the labor agreement has been violated? Specifically what legitimate complaint does the MLBPA have and why?

They may not like it. JJ Hardy may not like it, but guess what? That's too bad. The Brewers probably didn't like the fact that they're paying JJ Hardy $5Million to hit .220. They probably didn't like the fact they had to eat $15 Million for Bill Hall to go away. They probably didn't like seeing CC Sabathia walk away in FA for a 2nd Rd. compensation pick, or seeing Ben Sheets walk away for nothing. Should MLB 'look into' those situations? Of course not, because those are the terms of the agreement that both sides agreed on.

[IAmMarquette]

Sounds like a big fat "meh" from Milwaukee, and a big stink from a few Cubs fans on this board.

Would Brewers general manager Doug Melvin understand if Hardy and his agent, Mike Seal, were upset about the timing of Hardy's demotion?

"As long as they understand that we waited a long time for the player," Melvin said. "We carried certain young players -- I won't name them -- when they weren't performing earlier in their careers to help develop them. There are some players who gained some early service time when they didn't perform at this level."

"They're never going to say it's about service time, but we can't help but have that cross our minds," said Seal, Hardy's agent since 2002. "If it is about the player's free agency, controlling him longer, then it's a very shrewd move.

"We understand the club has options on his contract -- I just disagree with the transaction.

"I feel for J.J. as a teammate," said pitcher Dave Bush, the team's union representative. "It could have happened to me last year when I was sent down [in May, only to be recalled days later when Yovani Gallardo suffered a knee injury]. It's unfortunate from a player's perspective, but there's nothing illegal about it. You have to make the best you can out of it. The way I looked at it last year, if I had been pitching well I would have never gone down."

http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090827&content_id=6645646&vkey=news_mil&fext=.jsp&c_id=mil

[NavinRJohnson]

It's unfortunate from a player's perspective, but there's nothing illegal about it. You have to make the best you can out of it. The way I looked at it last year, if I had been pitching well I would have never gone down."

 -- Dave Bush

Apparently Dave doesn't read this board, because if he did, he would know that the Brewers "pulled some shady crap" and the MLBPA "needs to look into this" and are going to "address this." What does he know, though? Its not like he's the Brewers Union Rep or anything.

[LON]

It's unfortunate from a player's perspective, but there's nothing illegal about it. You have to make the best you can out of it. The way I looked at it last year, if I had been pitching well I would have never gone down."

 -- Dave Bush

Apparently Dave doesn't read this board, because if he did, he would know that the Brewers "pulled some shady crap" and the MLBPA "needs to look into this" and are going to "address this." What does he know, though? Its not like he's the Brewers Union Rep or anything.

Check and mate.

[TallTitan34]

Care to revise?  Obviously they have been pitching great lately but Holliday has been nothing short of phenomenal since coming over. 

Of course, hindsight is 20-20 and this nice little run guarantees nothing in the playoffs but this looks like a pretty good move for the Cards.  However, if they flop in the playoffs, can't resign him/doesn't produce up to his next contract, and Wallace hits 40 homers down the line it won't be.

I'll admit I was wrong on this one.

[TallTitan34]

Check and mate.

Really a Dave Bush quote about how he sucked is check mate?  GOMU1104 is right on this one.  If you think the MLBPA doesn't investigate you are fooling yourselves.  Free agency is what they are all about.  You don't f*** wth these guys when it comes to free agency.

[NavinRJohnson]

Really a Dave Bush quote about how he sucked is check mate?  GOMU1104 is right on this one.  If you think the MLBPA doesn't investigate you are fooling yourselves. 

Que broken record...Good for them. They can investigate all they want. What exactly is it you guys think the results of said investigation are going to be, they figure out that the Brewers sent him down to get an extra year of control? Everybody already knows that. There has been no effort or reason to try to hide that fact. Guess what? There isn't a damn thing they can do about it, besides bitch and moan like you guys.

As I have already pointed out, JJ Hardy's loss, is Alciedes Escobar's gain, as he is now closer to his FA. Are they going to investigate that too? Doh!

Again...righteous indignation over the Brewers doing something that was well within their rights, and their interest to do. Not sure why that is so difficult to understand. Then again, coming from the crowd who thought the Cubs declaring bankruptcy would allow them to void Soriano's contract, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. But hey, the MLBPA could always investigate.

[TallTitan34]

Great decesion, piss off the MLBPA.

[NavinRJohnson]

Great decesion, piss off the MLBPA.

Hmmm...so the argument seems to have changed. I thought they were going to investigate. I guess they are going to investigate whether or not they are pissed off.

MLBPA Investigator: "JJ, how do you feel about what happened?"
JJ HArdy: "I'm pissed."

MLBPA Investigator: "Alcieded, how do you feel about what happened?"
Alciedes Escobar: "I love it. I'm in the bigs, and a year closer to getting paid!"


MEMO

TO: MLBPA Members
FR: MPLPA Investigator

RE: JJ Hardy AAA Demotion

To all my union brethren, after extensive investigation, we have concluded that the Milwaukee Brewers did nothing to violate the terms of the labor agreement, and one of our members will actually benefit from this situation, but we will feign outrage anyway because that's what unions do.

We would like to thank MUScoop Cub fans for joining us in our insincere righteous indignation, and encouraging us to conduct the investigation, and address this situation. I would also like to thank the MLBPA intern for the dozens of minutes spent on this investigation, particularly the time spent efficiently reading the labor agreement that provided the Milwaukee Brewers the right to make the roster moves that they made. That effort allowed us to avoid spending any additional time or resources on the investigation.

[TallTitan34]

This isn't a Cubs Brewers issue.  The MLBPA will investigate.  I stand by that.

[LON]

Really a Dave Bush quote about how he sucked is check mate?  GOMU1104 is right on this one.  If you think the MLBPA doesn't investigate you are fooling yourselves.  Free agency is what they are all about.  You don't f*** wth these guys when it comes to free agency.

Or actually I was referring to how the Brewers UNION REP basically says, aw shucks.  Should have played better.

But yeah, Dave Bush probably has no idea about the rules.

[LON]

This isn't a Cubs Brewers issue.  The MLBPA will investigate.  I stand by that.

They can investigate the early service time he earned while batting .185 when he was originally brought up and (unlike now) we had no alternatives.

[NavinRJohnson]

The MLBPA will investigate.  I stand by that.

You keep saying that! Investigate what exactly?!?!? What is said investigation supposedly going to accomplish? Its a simple question, it appears you are incapable of answering. 

[jmayer1]

At first I was against this but now I'm not really sure.  Obviously they did it to gain a year of eligibility but I'm not sure how much this move will really hurts JJ's pocketbook, especially if he has another down year.  

JJ Hardy makes $4.65 million this year.  I believe under the rules of arbitration, the lowest the Brewers (or any other team he's traded to) can offer him the next two years are $3.72 million for 2010 and $3.255 million for 2011.  That is the absolute lowest he can make for 2011 (the arbitrator can decide to take JJ's offer or the two sides could agree on a number in between).  If he has another year like this year, he might have a tough time making that as a free agent.  Of course, if he comes back and hits .280 and 25 homers he'll prolly be able to get more than that but I'm not sure exactly how much.

Here's a list of shortstops that signed last offseason and how much they made this year:
Edgar Renteria - $8 million
Rafael Furcal - $7.5 million
Orlando Cabrera - $4 million
Felipe Lopez - $3.5 million
Cezar Izturis - $2.4 million
Nomar Garciaparra - $1 million
Juan Uribe - $1 million
Adam Everrett - $1 million
Omar Vizquel - $1 million
David Eckstein - $850k

I'm not sure where Hardy falls on that list.  Another year like this year and he'd prolly be somewhere toward the lower end.  A good year and he's prolly at about 3rd.  To be honest, if JJ doesn't agree to make a move to either second or third I would be shocked to see him on the Brewers at all.  Whether that means they trade him (prolly could only get two lower level minor leaguers at best right now) or don't offer him arbitration (making him a free agent) who knows.  The MLBPA can investigate all they want, but really they have no case.  He got a lot of extra service time when the Brewers stuck with him early in his career, you can't blame them when they pull the plug on him when they had a better option at SS.

[NavinRJohnson]

 To be honest, if JJ doesn't agree to make a move to either second or third I would be shocked to see him on the Brewers at all.  Whether that means they trade him (prolly could only get two lower level minor leaguers at best right now) or don't offer him arbitration (making him a free agent) who knows.  

I would put the chances of JJ being on the Brewers next year at approximately 5%. Unless they come up with some massive deal involving Escobar (unlikely) JJ will be gone. Gamel and McGehee are better options at 3B, and Weeks will likely be back at 2B. Obviously any number of deals could be made, but the Brewers clearly intend to deal Hardy this off season.