Baseball Pissing Match

[reinko]

If Robin Yount is overrated then Ryan Sandberg and Ron Santo are crumb bums.

[TallTitan34]

Pretty Close Numbers.  Sandberg wins on everything except hits.  Tie in batting average.

Sandberg:
282 HR
.285 AVG
2386 H
344 SB
.795 OPS
.344 OBP

Yount:
251 HR
.285 AVG
3142 H
271 SB
.772 OPS
.342 OBP

[NavinRJohnson]

Robin Yount was overrated.  Let's see if that can stir up anything.

You've gotta do better than that. Clearly you don't believe that. You need to be more subtle, and argue something that is at least somewhat feasible.

[Hards Alumni]

Pretty Close Numbers.  Sandberg wins on everything except hits.  Tie in batting average.

Sandberg:
282 HR
.285 AVG
2386 H
344 SB
.795 OPS
.344 OBP

Yount:
251 HR
.285 AVG
3142 H
271 SB
.772 OPS
.342 OBP

So  you are saying Yount was better for longer?

thanks

[TallTitan34]

My goodness man are you blind?  Sandberg has better numbers in everything but hits.  Sandberg hands down.  Here's some more stats.

Sandberg:
All-Star Games: 10
Gold Gloves: 9
MVPs: 1
Silver Sluggers: 7

Yount:
All-Star Games: 3
Gold Gloves: 1
MVPs: 2
Silver Sluggers: 3

[jmayer1]

Meh, they still suck.  Can't say I didn't call it from day 1 though...

In all honesty I don't think the Cards can hang with either the Dodgers or the Phillies.  IMO, those two are the class of the NL by far, and that will be a hell of a NLCS.  I pray that the Cards don't prove me wrong and win the WS or something.

Yeah, the Cards going 5-2 against LA since the Holliday trade sure showed they weren't in the same class as them.  The Dodgers starting pitching is pretty thin.  I'm predicting Stl vs Phi in the NLCS.

[jmayer1]

My goodness man are you blind?  Sandberg has better numbers in everything but hits.  Sandberg hands down.  Here's some more stats.

Sandberg:
All-Star Games: 10
Gold Gloves: 9
MVPs: 1
Silver Sluggers: 7

Yount:
All-Star Games: 3
Gold Gloves: 1
MVPs: 2
Silver Sluggers: 3

Sandberg was a better player than Yount, especially for his position.  There's really no debating that.  Molitor was prolly a better overall hitter than Ryno but he played DH nearly half of his games and was never known as a good fielder even when he did play a position so I would have to give Sanberg the edge there as well.  It's also a joke that Dawson isn't in the HOF, 250 more hits and he prolly would have been in on either the 1st or 2nd ballot.

[MU B2002]

Yeah, the Cards going 5-2 against LA since the Holliday trade sure showed they weren't in the same class as them.  The Dodgers starting pitching is pretty thin.  I'm predicting Stl vs Phi in the NLCS.

As an LA fan I think the best case scenario would be to finish first in the NL with the Braves winning the WC. (As I don't think divisional opponents can play in the first round) This way they would only have to beat Philly or STL not both.  And yes their rotation is looking thin, hopefully Billingsley can return to form soon.  Weaver has been huge in eating some innings recently and anything they get out of Haeger  (young knuckleballer) or Padilla (just signed to a minor league deal) is really just "house money".  I would be comfortable with a rotation for the playoffs of Billingsley - Wolf - Kershaw - Weaver.  Now Broxton's recent problems are another issue...




Also, not that anyone else cares....
Manny last night was 3/4 and saw a total of 5 pitches.  I am not sure there is a stat for this, but to me that seems like an incredibly low pitch count for 4 ABs.

[jmayer1]

As an LA fan I think the best case scenario would be to finish first in the NL with the Braves winning the WC. (As I don't think divisional opponents can play in the first round) This way they would only have to beat Philly or STL not both.  And yes their rotation is looking thin, hopefully Billingsley can return to form soon.  Weaver has been huge in eating some innings recently and anything they get out of Haeger  (young knuckleballer) or Padilla (just signed to a minor league deal) is really just "house money".  I would be comfortable with a rotation for the playoffs of Billingsley - Wolf - Kershaw - Weaver.  Now Broxton's recent problems are another issue...




Also, not that anyone else cares....
Manny last night was 3/4 and saw a total of 5 pitches.  I am not sure there is a stat for this, but to me that seems like an incredibly low pitch count for 4 ABs.

That's another one of the good things about the Cubs fade for the Cards is that there isn't really any chance (unless the Cubs go on an absolute tear) for the wild card to come out of the central, meaning they won't be forced to play another division champ like either Philly or LAD (although that could still happen).  There's a ton of playoff scenarios so it doesn't make sense to run through them at this point but if the Cards can stay hot and end up with the best record in the NL (currently 2.5 gb of LA and 1.5 gb of PHI) they could assure themselves of a Phi-LA matchup in the division series.

In the playoffs, lots of times you can get by with only 3 starters.  They've got 3 pretty good ones in Wolf, Billingsley, and Kershaw but they can't always depend on those guys going deep into games due to high pitch counts (especially Kershaw).  There's a lot of time remaining for them to sort it out and figure how they want to set their pitching for the playoffs (of course that division lead is getting a little tighter so I shouldn't put the cart before the horse I guess).

[wadesworld]

Yeah, the Cards going 5-2 against LA since the Holliday trade sure showed they weren't in the same class as them.  The Dodgers starting pitching is pretty thin.  I'm predicting Stl vs Phi in the NLCS.

You played them in 2 regular season series in which the Dodgers haven't been playing well for quite some time.  They're 10-15 in their last 25 games.  I'll put my money on the Dodgers returning to form, ending up with the best record in the NL, and playing in the NLCS.  Yes, the Cards have an advantage at starting pitching, but in an NLDS you only need a 3 man rotation.  Wolf, Kershaw, and Billingsley are a pretty solid 3, and they won't hold back on pitch count when it comes to the playoffs.

[jmayer1]

You played them in 2 regular season series in which the Dodgers haven't been playing well for quite some time.  They're 10-15 in their last 25 games.  I'll put my money on the Dodgers returning to form, ending up with the best record in the NL, and playing in the NLCS.  Yes, the Cards have an advantage at starting pitching, but in an NLDS you only need a 3 man rotation.  Wolf, Kershaw, and Billingsley are a pretty solid 3, and they won't hold back on pitch count when it comes to the playoffs.

I'll take my chances with the team that has (at this point arguably) better starting pitching, a better bullpen, and a better lineup but you never know what will happen in the playoffs (see '06 Cards).  I'm not sure how the fact that the Dodgers are playing bad lately is actually an excuse to say that the Cards aren't as good as them.  Last I checked, all 162 games count the same and the teams are trending in opposite directions.

Of course they aren't going to hold back on pitch counts during the playoffs, but when you have nearly 100 pitched through 4 innings, you're obviously not gong to be able to make it through even 7 innings and good lineups will pounce on your bullpen in the playoffs.  The Dodgers have some good young arms, but those same guys tend to get some pretty high pitch counts at times.

[MU B2002]

  The Dodgers have some good young arms, but those same guys tend to get some pretty high pitch counts at times.

Kershaw especially...  He has been all over the place lately with a ton of walks (20 in his last 6 starts) all losses for the Dodgers.

[jmayer1]

Kershaw especially...  He has been all over the place lately with a ton of walks (20 in his last 6 starts) all losses for the Dodgers.

The positive thing with some of Kershaw's short starts lately is that he isn't on pace to highly exceed his prior high of innings pitch:

07: 169 ip
08: 139.2 ip (estimated 8 starts left ~ about 40 ip, toal 179.2)

When guys really exceed their high of ip by a lot (50+) during the regular season that can be a sign that they will start to wear down at the end of the regular season and during the playoffs.  I think if Kershaw can tighten his control a little bit, he can be a real asset to them down the stretch.

[wadesworld]

I'll take my chances with the team that has (at this point arguably) better starting pitching, a better bullpen, and a better lineup but you never know what will happen in the playoffs (see '06 Cards).  I'm not sure how the fact that the Dodgers are playing bad lately is actually an excuse to say that the Cards aren't as good as them.  Last I checked, all 162 games count the same and the teams are trending in opposite directions.

Of course they aren't going to hold back on pitch counts during the playoffs, but when you have nearly 100 pitched through 4 innings, you're obviously not gong to be able to make it through even 7 innings and good lineups will pounce on your bullpen in the playoffs.  The Dodgers have some good young arms, but those same guys tend to get some pretty high pitch counts at times.

Fair enough.  The only problem I have with this post is "and a better lineup."  You really think the Cardinals lineup is better than the Dodgers?  Almost the whole Dodgers lineup bats between .280-.300 and almost everyone has 60-70 RBI.  Their number 8 hitter is batting .295 with 57 RBI.  I think that says something when the number 8 hitter in a lineup has almost 60 RBI.

Also, I bring up the fact that the Dodgers haven't been playing well lately because every team is going to have a cold streak throughout such a long season, and I wouldn't expect a team like the Dodgers to keep up the pace that they are on right now (10-15 in the last 25).  If you truly believe that the Dodgers will continue to play as poorly as they are and continue to have that type of record, then more power to you and then you will be right, but the Dodgers won't even make the playoffs if that is the case.  I just don't see them playing that poorly for the rest of the year.  They will get back on pace, and I think they're the best team in the MLB.

[TallTitan34]

Sandberg was a better player than Yount, especially for his position.  There's really no debating that.  Molitor was prolly a better overall hitter than Ryno but he played DH nearly half of his games and was never known as a good fielder even when he did play a position so I would have to give Sanberg the edge there as well.  It's also a joke that Dawson isn't in the HOF, 250 more hits and he prolly would have been in on either the 1st or 2nd ballot.

Sometimes I think the HOF has been watered down over the years.  Every so often Boers & Bernstein will go through and "clean up" the HOF of various sports.  They have a critera where if you have to think about wheter he should be in or not then he shouldnt be.  Football's HOF is a joke since they put the same amount of people in every year.

[wadesworld]

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2009_08_23_slnmlb_sdnmlb_1&mode=wrap

View the play "Pujols and Venable have words on the infield."
I can't stand Pujols (or the Cardinals for that matter...they're quickly rising to Cubs level for me).  Pujols thinks everyone is out to get him and that everyone else is at fault.  All he does when the Brewers play the Cardinals is complain about Braun watching his home runs too much (which he does at times) and yet he watches EVERY SINGLE HOME RUN like it was his home run against Brad Lidge in the NLCS.  It's absolutely ridiculous.  And then he takes offense to Carlos Villanueva yelling and pumping his fist after getting out of a jam and confronts him in between innings.  All you hear from their commentators and their players is how nobody in the league likes the Brewers and that they are the most classless team ever and this is all based on the fact that the Brewers untuck their jerseys after a win as a tribute to Mike Cameron's dad, and Cameron is one of the classiest guys in the league.

And this is coming from the franchise who has a manager who fell asleep behind the wheel at an intersection because he was so drunk and couldn't even recite his ABCs and with a catcher who disagrees with a ball/strike call so he decides to undress on the field.  I can't stand the franchise anymore.  Until they quit acting in the ways that they talk down (so not arguing with calls, not watching home runs, etc.) they really shouldn't talk bad about other teams doing the same thing.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Also, I bring up the fact that the Dodgers haven't been playing well lately because every team is going to have a cold streak throughout such a long season, and I wouldn't expect a team like the Dodgers to keep up the pace that they are on right now (10-15 in the last 25).  If you truly believe that the Dodgers will continue to play as poorly as they are and continue to have that type of record, then more power to you and then you will be right, but the Dodgers won't even make the playoffs if that is the case.  I just don't see them playing that poorly for the rest of the year.  They will get back on pace, and I think they're the best team in the MLB.

I don't think they're even the best team in Los Angeles....neither do the power ratings, the RPI or the standings.  But, they play in the NL which means they have a cakewalk to the World Series compared to the other Los Angeles team.  I don't see the Dodgers winning the World Series against anyone, especially the Yankees.


http://espn.go.com/mlb/powerrankings

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rpi

http://espn.go.com/mlb/standings/_/group/9

[jmayer1]

I don't think they're even the best team in Los Angeles....neither do the power ratings, the RPI or the standings.  But, they play in the NL which means they have a cakewalk to the World Series compared to the other Los Angeles team.  I don't see the Dodgers winning the World Series against anyone, especially the Yankees.


http://espn.go.com/mlb/powerrankings

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rpi

http://espn.go.com/mlb/standings/_/group/9

The Dodgers will have to go through either the Cards, Phils  or possibly both to get to the playoffs.  That is no cakewalk.    The Angels could end up playing the Tigers and then the Rangers to get to the World Series (lots of possibilities).  I would say that would be a cakewalk.  It's way too early to say anybody has an easy road to the playoffs.  

Also, I can't believe you actually used rpi as support for your argument.  I know its an objective formula, but anything that puts the Seattle Mariners, who are 8 gb of the Cards and have a -52 run differential compared to +64 for the Cards, needs to be tweaked a lot.  Btw, the LAD have the highest pythagorean (expected w-l record based purely on run differential) in the bigs at 76-49 while the Angels come in 8th at 67-55 (just to show a measure that you failed to include but has quickly become one of the favored metrics of the sabermetric guys).  When two teams are separated by 1.5 games in the standings through 120+ games I wouldn't say one is clearly better than the other (although one is playing better right now, which is basically what the power rankings measure).

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2009-standings.shtml

[ChicosBailBonds]

The Dodgers will have to go through either the Cards, Phils  or possibly both to get to the playoffs.  That is no cakewalk.    The Angels could end up playing the Tigers and then the Rangers to get to the World Series (lots of possibilities).  I would say that would be a cakewalk.  It's way too early to say anybody has an easy road to the playoffs.  

Also, I can't believe you actually used rpi as support for your argument.  I know its an objective formula, but anything that puts the Seattle Mariners, who are 8 gb of the Cards and have a -52 run differential compared to +64 for the Cards, needs to be tweaked a lot.  Btw, the LAD have the highest pythagorean (expected w-l record based purely on run differential) in the bigs at 76-49 while the Angels come in 8th at 67-55 (just to show a measure that you failed to include but has quickly become one of the favored metrics of the sabermetric guys).  When two teams are separated by 1.5 games in the standings through 120+ games I wouldn't say one is clearly better than the other (although one is playing better right now, which is basically what the power rankings measure).

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2009-standings.shtml

I don't think anyone here said the Angels were clearly better.  I was countering the comment that said the Dodgers were the best team in the MLB and provided 3 stats to show they aren't even the best team in Los Angeles, let alone MLB.  But it's all subjective.  Sorry I didn't include the pythageron numbers....I didn't even know they existed.  I can't include something I don't know about.

As for the run to the World Series, well based on what the Halos did to the NL this year, it looked like a cakewalk to me.      I hope we don't play the Rangers, they've kicked our ass all year long.  We've had no problems with the AL East, AL Central, or the NL but the AL West is the only division we have a losing record against.

[wadesworld]

Haha I seem to remember Cubs fans having a little fun with the Brewers losing a 13-6 game to the worst team in the MLB, the Nationals.

BUT that was not to be outdone by those Cubs themselves.  Nice little 15-6 loss tonight.

Weird

[MarquetteFan94]

Haha I seem to remember Cubs fans having a little fun with the Brewers losing a 13-6 game to the worst team in the MLB, the Nationals.

BUT that was not to be outdone by those Cubs themselves.  Nice little 15-6 loss tonight.

Weird

Man, you seriously reach for straws don't you?  The Brewers recently get swept by the Pirates (have lost 5 of 6 to them) and have clearly had their own share of problems lately....are 3 games under .500 and are behind the Cubs in what has turned out to be a one team race in the division.....and you somehow still get enjoyment out of the Cubs losing by 9 to Washington because the Brewers only lost to them by 8 (not 7) a month ago?!  What a miserable world you're living in....although the Cubs OCD appears to be under control as evidenced by your new profile pic and the removal of the Cubs quotes...we're all pulling for you.

Queue the youtube videos.....

[Hards Alumni]

for a team that was 'far and away the best team in the NL Central' they sure are making it difficult on themselves to prove it.

I realize it is derivative at this point, but oh well... it IS fitting.

Completely
Usesless
By
September

[MarquetteFan94]

for a team that was 'far and away the best team in the NL Central' they sure are making it difficult on themselves to prove it.

I realize it is derivative at this point, but oh well... it IS fitting.

Completely
Usesless
By
September

Tired.  You may as well have pasted a youtube clip.  What's the acronym for the Brewers annual futility?  You disagree that the Cubs were favored to win the division at the start of the season?  Let me guess, you thought the Brewers would be there.

[NavinRJohnson]

Yeah, there is absolutely nothing to piss about any more. Both teams are bad, and there seasons ended at least a couple weeks ago already. 13-6,15-6, or 2-1? What is the difference? For fans of the Chicago Cubs and Milwaukee Brewers, baseball season is over.

[wadesworld]

Man, you seriously reach for straws don't you?  The Brewers recently get swept by the Pirates (have lost 5 of 6 to them) and have clearly had their own share of problems lately....are 3 games under .500 and are behind the Cubs in what has turned out to be a one team race in the division.....and you somehow still get enjoyment out of the Cubs losing by 9 to Washington because the Brewers only lost to them by 8 (not 7) a month ago?!  What a miserable world you're living in....although the Cubs OCD appears to be under control as evidenced by your new profile pic and the removal of the Cubs quotes...we're all pulling for you.

Queue the youtube videos.....

I just think it's kind of funny that Cubs fans think losing 13-6 (I was at the game, the score is right) was the worst game that was ever played and showed how bad the Brewers were, and then they go and top it.  Definitely not saying that the Brewers are good.  Said from day 1 our pitching was not good enough.  Not sure why Doug thought that signing Braden Looper would magically make up the losses of CC Sabathia and Ben Sheets.  I had hope when we were hot early on, but it proved to be just a hot streak.  And the world I am living in is quite great right now.

And just for the record, they may have been favored, but I also said all along that the Cardinals would win the division.  Cubs fans thought they had a baseball team that was hand picked by God, and they have been terrible.