Baseball Pissing Match

[robmufan]

Because...
-Escobar is the SS of the future
-There is nowhere to play Hardy, he wont move to 3B
-He is a FA after the 2010 season.

What do you want to do with him?

Im saying you wouldn't get a teams top 5 prospects for someone like J.J. Hardy or even Corey Hart.  Now that hardy has basically flunked in the majors (sans his Defense), his trade value is very small

[jmayer1]

Braun must really like Milwaukee because that deal he signed was a joke.  I think he could make 2 or three time that even with the bad economy.

Two or three times that?  Your hyperbole is a joke.

I think this is probably a pretty reasonable estimation of what he would have gotten year-by-year.  The total comes out to $80.4 million.  His deal will end up being $51 million.  He prolly left about $30 million on the table (obviously a rough estimation) but it was by far the biggest contract given to someone with less than one year of service (Tulowitzki's 7-$31 mill but one more year of service, Longoria 6-$17.5mill with the same service but will prolly end up 9-$44 mill if team options are picked up the last 3 year.)
 
Brewers-controlled year
2008 - 600k
2009 - 800k
2010 - 1 mill
Arbitration Eligible
2011 - 10 mil
2012 - 12 mil
2013 - 14 mil
Free Agent
2014 - 20 mil
2015 - 22 mil

Let's see if Escobar is really major league ready as so many like to claim.  I have my doubts about his ability to hit on a consistent level in the majors (his fielding is already gold glove caliber).  I'm not sure Hart or Hardy have any real trade value right now.  The Crew's best option is prolly to keep both of them (who knows where Hardy will play) and hope that this was just a bad season and both can return to the all-star form they have flashed at times in the past.

If nothing else, these moves shake up a team that has played some pretty bad ball since July 1st.  The Brewers really need to find some decent starting pitching somewhere, as well as a few more guys who can work the count, draw walks, and not constantly swing for the fences.  Maybe the Crew can turn it into a good race with the Cubs for 2nd in the division

[LON]

If you need to worry about getting offense from you catcher, then your whole team is forked.  All a catcher needs to do is play defense and call a game, any offense you get from him is an added bonus.

I see your point but he's absolutely atrocious...you wouldn't want to see what Rivera can do with regular AB's?

[GOMU1104]

Im saying you wouldn't get a teams top 5 prospects for someone like J.J. Hardy or even Corey Hart.  Now that hardy has basically flunked in the majors (sans his Defense), his trade value is very small

Who said I expected them to get a team's top 5 prospects?

[GOMU1104]

I see your point but he's absolutely atrocious...you wouldn't want to see what Rivera can do with regular AB's?

Rivera is terrible. Salome would get the ABs, not Rivera.

[robmufan]

Who said I expected them to get a team's top 5 prospects?

Then what are you going to get in a trade for him?  What would be the point of trading him if you get little to nothing in return? 

[LON]

Rivera is terrible. Salome would get the ABs, not Rivera.

Point remains, I don't want to see Jason "the bean-eating hobo" Kendall in a Brewers uniform again next year.

[GOMU1104]

Then what are you going to get in a trade for him?  What would be the point of trading him if you get little to nothing in return? 

So its either top 5 prospects or nothing?  Nothing else of value can be acquired?

[robmufan]

So its either top 5 prospects or nothing?  Nothing else of value can be acquired?

That is what I am asking now, what do you expect to get in a trade with Hart and/or Hardy involved?

[GOMU1104]

That is what I am asking now, what do you expect to get in a trade with Hart and/or Hardy involved?

They will target ML starting pitching. They will use Hart/Hardy and various minor leaguers to make that happen.

[TallTitan34]

C - Jason Kendall Bad
1B - Prince Fielder
2B - Rickie Weeks  Bad
SS - Alciedes Escobar Unproven
3B - Casey McGehee Will Be Bad
LF - Matt Gamel Unproven
CF - Corey Hart  Bad
RF - Ryan Braun

SP
1 - Yovanni Gallardo
2 - ?
3 - Braden Looper Bad
4 - Dave Bush Bad
5 - Jeff Suppan Bad

[jmayer1]

C - Jason Kendall Bad
1B - Prince Fielder
2B - Rickie Weeks  Bad
SS - Alciedes Escobar Unproven
3B - Casey McGehee Will Be Bad
LF - Matt Gamel Unproven
CF - Corey Hart  Bad
RF - Ryan Braun

SP
1 - Yovanni Gallardo
2 - ?
3 - Braden Looper Bad
4 - Dave Bush Bad
5 - Jeff Suppan Bad

It's weird that the Brewers, with all their terrible players, are only 3 1/2 games behind the mighty Cubs who feature all-stars at nearly every position.  Some of the guys on this board are the biggest Cubs homers/babies/apologists I have every seen.  I hope you have fun seeing your team, which boasts the 3rd highest opening-day payroll in the majors sit home for the playoffs.  Good luck with all those injury-prone, old, and overpaid guys for the next few years.  Oh wait, maybe you can declare bankruptcy and get rid of some of those horrible contracts.  Hahahaha!

[GOMU1104]

It's weird that the Brewers, with all their terrible players, are only 3 1/2 games behind the mighty Cubs who feature all-stars at nearly every position.  Some of the guys on this board are the biggest Cubs homers/babies/apologists I have every seen.  I hope you have fun seeing your team, which boasts the 3rd highest opening-day payroll in the majors sit home for the playoffs.  Good luck with all those injury-prone, old, and overpaid guys for the next few years.  Oh wait, maybe you can declare bankruptcy and get rid of some of those horrible contracts.  Hahahaha!

The funny thing is, they cant even dump the contracts if they successfully file for Bankruptcy.

They still will owe Soriano 80 mil total, through 2014.

They still will owe Ramirez 30 mil total, through 2011.

They still will owe Demptster 40 mil total, through 2012.

Have fun with that!

[wadesworld]

Here's the batting order I'd like to see for next year:

1. Lopez 2B
2. Weeks RF
3. Braun LF
4. Fielder 1B
5. McGehee 3B
6. Hart CF
7. Escobar SS
8. Salome C

SP
1. Gallardo
2. Send a package centered around Gamel and Hardy for a solid #2 pitcher
3. Hopefully sign somebody actually worth signing as a solid #3 pitcher
4. Parra
5. Bush or Looper

Villanueva and Bush or Looper in long relief, Stetter and Coffee, and then Hoffman closer

By the way TT, I love "will be bad" for McGehee.  You know that?  I wish I had that kind of view for the future that you have.  Here's a question for you, then.  Going into next season, the Cubs will have gone 6 years without a win in the playoffs...will they finally win a game in next year's playoffs?  The way Cubs fans talk about how great they are on this forum, you'd think they'd have won at least 1 playoffs series in the last 6 years, let alone 1 game, but no...
And if Weeks returns to the form he was before he got injured this season, is he really bad?

[GOMU1104]

Here's the batting order I'd like to see for next year:

1. Lopez 2B
2. Weeks RF
3. Braun LF
4. Fielder 1B
5. McGehee 3B
6. Hart CF
7. Escobar SS
8. Salome C

SP
1. Gallardo
2. Send a package centered around Gamel and Hardy for a solid #2 pitcher
3. Hopefully sign somebody actually worth signing as a solid #3 pitcher
4. Parra
5. Bush or Looper

Villanueva and Bush or Looper in long relief, Stetter and Coffee, and then Hoffman closer

By the way TT, I love "will be bad" for McGehee.  You know that?  I wish I had that kind of view for the future that you have.  Here's a question for you, then.  Going into next season, the Cubs will have gone 6 years without a win in the playoffs...will they finally win a game in next year's playoffs?  The way Cubs fans talk about how great they are on this forum, you'd think they'd have won at least 1 playoffs series in the last 6 years, let alone 1 game, but no...
And if Weeks returns to the form he was before he got injured this season, is he really bad?

Weeks in RF?

I would suggest not calling anyone out, if you are going to go on and write something like that...

Cam continues to be the best option for the Brewers in CF, he should be back for 1 more season.

[wadesworld]

Weeks in RF?

I would suggest not calling anyone out, if you are going to go on and write something like that...

Cam continues to be the best option for the Brewers in CF, he should be back for 1 more season.

What's wrong with Weeks in RF?  If we can resign Lopez and have those 2 at the top of the order, with Lopez as the better 2B, why not?  Haudricourt wants Lopez at 2B and Weeks in CF.  If we're going to move Braun to the OF, and some people want to suggest Gamel to the OF, then why not Weeks if we have a better defensive 2B?

By the way, adding to JJ's trade value is that if he doesn't play the next 20 days in the MLB he is controlled by the team for an extra year.

[GOMU1104]

What's wrong with Weeks in RF?  If we can resign Lopez and have those 2 at the top of the order, with Lopez as the better 2B, why not?  Haudricourt wants Lopez at 2B and Weeks in CF.  If we're going to move Braun to the OF, and some people want to suggest Gamel to the OF, then why not Weeks if we have a better defensive 2B?

By the way, adding to JJ's trade value is that if he doesn't play the next 20 days in the MLB he is controlled by the team for an extra year.

You act like moving players around is as easy as in the video games.  Rickie is not RF material, he isnt really CF material either. Just because he is fast, doesnt mean his game will translate to the OF.

Keep Cam around for 1 more year, while Cain bounces back from knee surgery.

Hardy will still be a FA after 2010. He wont miss more than 20 days, he will be back Sept 1st.  They arent going to screw with his service time like that.

[chapman]

I don't see Cameron staying around.  Melvin was trying pretty hard to unload that contract this past offseason.  I think Bourgeois is getting the audition for the role next year.  If Melvin can pay him 500k to hit .240 and steal 30 bases he's going to take the subpar defense and lack of power instead of paying Cameron 8 mil.  If Bourgeois, Escobar, Weeks, and Iribarren are all around next year you have to think they won't stay dead last in stolen bases.  Put players like Braun, Fielder, Gamel, and McGehee around that speed, keep solid reserves like Counsell and Cattalanato and you can put together some decent lineups that don't cost much...in other words, Doug Melvin has no excuse for not spending some money to get pitchers that aren't washed up or AA material.  IMO, Weeks is the biggest question mark.  He was on a great pace before getting hurt, but it took two years to recover from the injury last time.   

[wadesworld]

You act like moving players around is as easy as in the video games.  Rickie is not RF material, he isnt really CF material either. Just because he is fast, doesnt mean his game will translate to the OF.

Keep Cam around for 1 more year, while Cain bounces back from knee surgery.

Hardy will still be a FA after 2010. He wont miss more than 20 days, he will be back Sept 1st.  They arent going to screw with his service time like that.

Never said it was easy, just think that if you can have Lopez leading off and Weeks batting 2nd in front of Fielder and Braun instead of Weeks batting 1 and Counsel or Cameron batting 2 I think it's an upgrade.

I've never thought Weeks was a leadoff hitter, and I think he'd be great in either the 2 or 5 spots.  2 because he'd provide more speed on the basepaths for Braun and Fielder and 5 because Braun and Fielder get on base and he has the ability to drive guys in.  Right now the Brewers rely on Braun and Fielder hitting home runs for their runs, and if not then those 2 get left on base and we don't produce many runs.  That's the most frustrating thing about the Brewers offense.  You have Braun and Fielder who bat .300+ and put up the big power numbers, and other than that you have guys like Cameron, Hart, Hardy, etc. who bat low-mid .200s and swing for the fence every time up.  I'm just tired of having a leadoff double and then that guy still standing on 2nd at the end of the inning after a strikeout, popout to the infield or right field, and then another strikeout or groundout.  It's terrible baseball and it's how the Brewers have played for far too long.  How often have we seen the Brewers with the tying run on 1st and no outs in the 9th, and Macha has no confidence in bunting him down to 2nd because we have guys who either hit a home run (which would take the lead) or strikeout/pop out (which leaves the guy on 1st and would leave the guy on 2nd anyway, so there's no point to bunt him over)?  Yes, the pitching has been atrocious, but even if it was great, the offense lives and dies by the long ball, and (like last year) that might be good enough to get you into the playoffs, but it will never get you a World Series.  The dynamic of the offense has to change, and a great start to that would be to have Lopez and Weeks at the top of the order.  They're guys who will get on base and be able to run, which they NEVER do now.

I think with both Lopez and Weeks at the top of the order the whole lineup improves a ton, as the whole lineup changes from completely relying on power to being able to do more things, and moving different guys to different spots, where they fit better.  The problem is, Lopez and Weeks are both strictly 2B right now.  If Escobar is as good defensively as he is made out to be, you can't move him from SS, and neither Weeks nor Lopez has a great enough arm to play a great 3B, plus they have good range so you take that strength away from them by putting them in at 3B.  So essentially 1 of the 2 would most likely have to move out of the infield if they are both going to be on the team, and I feel as though I would rather have Weeks out there and as a corner OF instead of in CF.

[GOMU1104]

Lopez can still play some 3B and SS. It is more likely that he takes Counsel's role as the Utility Infielder, than moving Weeks all over the place.

My ideal lineup for the 2010 season, assuming/hoping Hardy/Hart are moved for some arms.

C - Kendall/Salome
1B - Fielder
2b - Weeks/Lopez
3B - Mcghee/Lopez
SS - Escobar/Lopez
LF - Gamel
CF - Cameron
RF - Braun

[wadesworld]

Lopez can still play some 3B and SS. It is more likely that he takes Counsel's role as the Utility Infielder, than moving Weeks all over the place.

My ideal lineup for the 2010 season, assuming/hoping Hardy/Hart are moved for some arms.

C - Kendall/Salome
1B - Fielder
2b - Weeks/Lopez
3B - Mcghee/Lopez
SS - Escobar/Lopez
LF - Gamel
CF - Cameron
RF - Braun

Fair enough.  I guess I just don't understand why you think Gamel could move into the OF but Weeks wouldn't be able to do so, and I'd personally rather have Lopez in there every day over Gamel.  Plus I think we could get a lot if we include Gamel in a trade, as I think he has by far a higher trade value than either Hart or Hardy, and we need the arms.  Unfortunately I think the offense is going to look very similar to what it did this year and not many moves will be made.  We will see though.

Also, from JSOnline:
"Hardy needs a full season this year to remain on track to be a free agent after next season. But, if the Brewers keep him in Nashville until rosters can be expanded Sept. 1, Hardy will have spent exactly 20 days there and lose that service time.

Should the Brewers opt to trade Hardy before next season, potential suitors would be inclined to give more in return if he can’t be a free agent until after 2011. The flip side is that Hardy’s trade value was not enhanced by being sent to the minors."

[wadesworld]

And by the way, really classy fans out there in Wrigley field, throwing a cup of beer on Shane Victorino as he catches a fly ball.  At least it was only 1 this time instead of the 10 that were thrown at Braun earlier this year.

[TallTitan34]

Why did you include Aramis in our bad contracts?  He is the MVP of this team as you can see from the last two series where he hasn't played and when he was out eariler.

Considering the injuries we've had I think 3 games up on the Brewers is amazing.

If you think McGhee will be good next year good luck with that.

[wadesworld]

Considering the injuries we've had I think 3 games up on the Brewers is amazing.

If you think McGhee will be good next year good luck with that.

Haha so it's amazing to be up 3 games on a team with 3 good players on it (according to you)?  OK, makes perfect sense now.  I suppose the Brewers didn't have any injuries at all this year.  Rickie Weeks hasn't been out for the season since the end of May, Corey Hart hasn't been out, Suppan isn't out, Bush hasn't been out.  No injuries for those Brewers.  It's comical how naive Cubs fans are.  The Cubs are the only team in the MLB who has had any injuries this year.

And did you expect McGehee to be good this year?

[jmayer1]

Considering the injuries we've had I think 3 games up on the Brewers is amazing.

Keeping leaning on that crutch.  Everybody has injuries.  Look at the Cards: Glaus has been out the whole year.  Ludwick & Ankiel both had stints on the dl (although Ankiel isn't much of a loss).  Carpenter and Lohse have both missed a handful of starts.  The Brewers have been pretty healthy for their keys guys (Fielder, Braun, Gallardo) but they lost Weeks for most of the season (obviously not as big of a loss as Glaus or Ramirez).  Now Hart is out for the season,  Bush has been out for almost 2 months, and Suppan is also on the dl (also not huge losses, but all guys that were expected to play everyday)