Baseball Pissing Match

[wadesworld]

Gallardo - Good
Halladay - Good

Looper - Bad
Parra - Bad
Suppan - Bad
Bush - Bad

Looper is 8-4 this year.  I think most teams would take that from their #3 starter.  Again, if Parra continues to pitch like he has since coming back up to the majors I'd say 1 run every 13 innings is pretty good.  Suppan is bad all the time.  Bush was good when he was healthy, so we'll see if he can get healthy again.

Are those 4 bad for a #1 starter?  Yes.  Are they the best 3-5 starters in the majors?  No.  Are they bad for 3-5 starters?  No.

[Wareagle]

Looper is 8-4 this year.  I think most teams would take that from their #3 starter.  Again, if Parra continues to pitch like he has since coming back up to the majors I'd say 1 run every 13 innings is pretty good.  Suppan is bad all the time.  Bush was good when he was healthy, so we'll see if he can get healthy again.

Are those 4 bad for a #1 starter?  Yes.  Are they the best 3-5 starters in the majors?  No.  Are they bad for 3-5 starters?  No.

I think it's a bad idea to look at win-loss records to prove a pitcher's worth.  Looper's WHIP and ERA are above average, and he's already given up almost as many homers in roughly one-half of the season as he did all of last year. 

He's really lucked out getting no decisions a few times when he's given up a boatload of runs.  I think the stats bare out that Looper's record is a function of luck and the Brewers being a top 4 offense in the NL.

[TallTitan34]

I'm glad you left the middle part of my post alone because you had absolutely nothing there.  Desperate attempt that was thrown right back at you.

I didn't respond to the middle of your post because it had about 4 different ifs that all had to happen.   

[wadesworld]

I didn't respond to the middle of your post because it had about 4 different ifs that all had to happen.

Like what?
IF CC Sabathia was on the mound during the last game of the year: Check
IF he threw a complete game: Check
IF he only gave up one run: Check
IF the Marlins beat the Mets: Check

What do any of these have to do with Sweet Lou throwing out bad pitchers?  I'm saying that regardless of who was pitching for the Cubs, with CC Sabathia on the mound, pitching a complete game and giving up 1 run, I don't think it matters who was pitching for the Cubs, the Brewers still had a very good chance to win that game.  I am also saying that IF the Brewers had lost to the Cubs, they STILL would have had a 1 game playoff to make it into the playoffs as the Wild Card team.  So to say that the reason the Brewers made the playoffs last year is because Sweet Lou threw bad pitchers on the last day is absolutely foolish.

I am also saying that it was very foolish of Sweet Lou to throw those bad pitchers against the Brewers, knowing that if the Cubs win that game then the Mets can still get into the playoffs as the Wild Card, and the Cubs play the Mets instead of the Dodgers in the 1st round and the Brewers aren't even in the playoffs.  IF the Cubs beat the Brewers, the Brewers then play a 1 game playoff IN New York to go to the playoffs.  IF the Mets win that game, the 1st round is MUCH easier for the Cubs, and they MIGHT actually have won at least ONE game.

Doesn't seem that unreasonable to me...

[TallTitan34]

I'll never understand Brewer fans. When I was at the Dodgers/Brewers game a "F the Cubs" chant broke out. There was no one wearing Cubs stuff in the area even.

Why do you guys put crapping on the Cubs ahead of supporting your team. These assclowns wear blue a red shirts making fun of the Cubs rather than wearing your own teams colors or gear. From a distance you appear to be a Cub fan no matter how clever your shirt is. One example is the Cubs logo turned into a choke logo. Anyone from more than 20 feet away is going to think your a Cubs fan. Hell look no farther than wadesworlds icon.

I just don't understand why you put crapping on another team in front of supporting your own. 

[Brewtown Andy]

I'll never understand Brewer fans. When I was at the Dodgers/Brewers game a "F the Cubs" chant broke out. There was no one wearing Cubs stuff in the area even.

Why do you guys put crapping on the Cubs ahead of supporting your team. These assclowns wear blue a red shirts making fun of the Cubs rather than wearing your own teams colors or gear. From a distance you appear to be a Cub fan no matter how clever your shirt is. One example is the Cubs logo turned into a choke logo. Anyone from more than 20 feet away is going to think your a Cubs fan. Hell look no farther than wadesworlds icon.

I just don't understand why you put crapping on another team in front of supporting your own. 

Perhaps we should ask Red Sox fans, since they'll start chanting F The Yankees at a Sox-Royals game.

[LON]

I'll never understand Brewer fans. When I was at the Dodgers/Brewers game a "F the Cubs" chant broke out. There was no one wearing Cubs stuff in the area even.

Why do you guys put crapping on the Cubs ahead of supporting your team. These assclowns wear blue a red shirts making fun of the Cubs rather than wearing your own teams colors or gear. From a distance you appear to be a Cub fan no matter how clever your shirt is. One example is the Cubs logo turned into a choke logo. Anyone from more than 20 feet away is going to think your a Cubs fan. Hell look no farther than wadesworlds icon.

I just don't understand why you put crapping on another team in front of supporting your own. 

Probably because it's cheaper to get some "F the Cubs" shirt than to pay for a jersey?

Maybe their Favre jersey was in the wash?

They probably just became a fan of the Brewers in the last 3 years?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Crew fan but some of the "fans" I now come across at the park are just jagoffs so, yeah, TT, it doesn't really surprise me...

[LON]

Perhaps we should ask Red Sox fans, since they'll start chanting F The Yankees at a Sox-Royals game.

I don't know about you guys, but the last group of fans I'd like to be lumped in with are Sawx fans...

[NYWarrior]

Perhaps we should ask Red Sox fans, since they'll start chanting F The Yankees at a Sox-Royals game.

Fair enough....Red Sox fan obsess over the Yanks like no fan base obsesses over another.   The Yanks view Sox fans as a quaint bunch, the kind of like a little kid that you always get the best of when all is said and done (the pre-2003 mentality remains in many cases......the sun sets in the East, the Sox are put away like beach chairs on the Cape in September).  Nevertheless the Red Sox/Yankees rivalry didn't really exist in its present form until 1971 -- heck the BoSox never drew many fans until the Impossible Dream season of 1967.  Anyway, in 1971 Munson and Fisk rubbed each other the wrong way and ultimately it led to a memorable brawl in 1976....the hate built for 5 solid years.  The Yanks ran away from a talented Sox team that year before being swept by the Reds in the Series.  The Yanks rebounded with back to back titles the following year -- highlighted by their amazing comeback at the expense of a drum-tight BoSox team in 1978. Bucky effing Dent...he annihilated Red Sox Nation, oy.

Since then the rivalry has been pretty vicious with the Yanks holding a decided advantage until 2004.  Since the mid-70s the teams have largely been competitive, most notably since 1995 when they've jointly dominated the AL East like never before.  Realize that these teams are within one or two wins of each other head-to-head since 2003 -- which is amazing when u play 19 times per season.  The media feeds the obsession.....on both Yankee and Red Sox baseball networks they announcers routinely break format to update their heated rival's results from the night, usually with a comment or two.  The two teams are constantly fighting for expanded radio access in central Connecticut where the geography gets dicey (New Britain, CT is 111 miles from Yankee Stadium and 111 miles from Fenway), and certain towns in CT become 'Yankee towns' or the opposite.

When u lump in this crowded geography, Babe Ruth and the vitriol that has developed in the last 40 years you get an obsession on both sides of the house.....moreso in Boston where MFY fans (use your gutter imagination) more successfully infiltrate the Old Towne Team's ballpark than you'd expect. Only the bravest BoSox fans will wear their colors to a night game in the Bronx. Trust me, its not worth it. At the Fens you can wear NY  team gear to the game -- - don't try that at the Stadium.  I've heard MFY fans spew vulgarities at kids for wearing Ortiz t-shirts to a game...I'm talking kids younger than 10.  I'm off to see the Sox play at the Stadium next month -- I'll be wearing camo gear as will my children.

As for the 'F the Yankees' chant in other meaningless games that's true and a consequence of the ever-rising intensity of the rivalry.  Just last month I was at Fenway for a Sox/Braves interleague game on a Friday night.  Over near the Pesky Pole beers began flying and the fans were going nuts......after security got over there to calm things down two people were escorted out of the game.  Two women wearing Yankees t-shirts, flipping fans the bird and throwing the remainder of their beer as they were paraded out.

For now, the rivalry remains at a fever pitch and probably will continue until one of these teams is sold to a lousy owner or dismantles the respective front offices.

[Skatastrophy]

I'll never understand Brewer fans. When I was at the Dodgers/Brewers game a "F the Cubs" chant broke out. There was no one wearing Cubs stuff in the area even.

Why do you guys put crapping on the Cubs ahead of supporting your team. These assclowns wear blue a red shirts making fun of the Cubs rather than wearing your own teams colors or gear. From a distance you appear to be a Cub fan no matter how clever your shirt is. One example is the Cubs logo turned into a choke logo. Anyone from more than 20 feet away is going to think your a Cubs fan. Hell look no farther than wadesworlds icon.

I just don't understand why you put crapping on another team in front of supporting your own. 

I think that we can all agree that we can't judge a team's fanbase by the jagoffs that we see doing stupid stuff at games.

I really doubt that you'd like me judging all Cubbies fans by extrapolating from a hand-picked sampling of the biggest r-tards I run across at a game at Wrigley

[TallTitan34]

I really doubt that you'd like me judging all Cubbies fans by extrapolating from a hand-picked sampling of the biggest r-tards I run across at a game at Wrigley

I highly recommend reading "The Cubs Fan's Guide to Happiness".  It identifies said fools at Wrigley and the Lincoln Park Trixie. 

[Skatastrophy]

I highly recommend reading "The Cubs Fan's Guide to Happiness".  It identifies said fools at Wrigley and the Lincoln Park Trixie. 

Haha, classic!  I'll have to check this out

[robmufan]

Whose excited for a 5-2 roadtrip!

[TallTitan34]

On the Score they said the Brewers are making a heavy push for Halladay or Cliff Lee. I hope this happens!  Selling the future for a team who can't make a deep playoff run!

[jmayer1]

On the Score they said the Brewers are making a heavy push for Halladay or Cliff Lee. I hope this happens!  Selling the future for a team who can't make a deep playoff run!

How many examples do you need before you realize the MLB playoffs are a total crapshoot?  Look back over the last 10 years and you'll find nobody gave half the teams that actually won it a chance at the begnning of July.  If the Brewers go after Halladay that would give them a year and a half window to try to make a run during the postseason.  How often do you see teams looking to set up for the "future", only to have the "future" never happen, or realize that their "future" has already passed.  For a small market team like the Brewers, they need to try to win when they have a good nucleus of young talent (Braun, Fielder, Gallardo, Hardy and Hart if they start playing again) because chances are you won't be able to keep all that young talent together when they hit the free agency market. 

You really contradict yourself when you discount all the young guys the Brewers have in the farm system ("the future"), saying they won't be able to step in someday for the big league club, but then scoff when the Crew tries to make a move by moving some of those same guys ("selling the future").

Give me Halladay, Gallardo, Braun, and Fielder in the playoffs.  If those 4 guys all heat up (a big if) they can single-handedly win you a lot of games in the postseason.   

[wadesworld]

You really contradict yourself when you discount all the young guys the Brewers have in the farm system ("the future"), saying they won't be able to step in someday for the big league club, but then scoff when the Crew tries to make a move by moving some of those same guys ("selling the future").

He does that quite a bit.  And then he'll ignore this part of your post in his reply and make some other ridiculous comment about how there are too many what ifs in your post.

[TallTitan34]

Well if you would read what I previously wrote in the thread I said aside from Gamel and Escobar all you have is unproven guys who will be bad. To get Halladay I don't see how you wouldn't be losing these two guys who are good.  Thus I am excited you will lose Gamel and Escobar who I already said are good. 

Where did my post condrict my earlier statement? 

As for the playoffs, the times a good team wins still outnumbers the times a bad team takes it by a good margin.  While it is a crapshoot you still have to be realistic.

[ChicosBailBonds]

How many examples do you need before you realize the MLB playoffs are a total crapshoot?  Look back over the last 10 years and you'll find nobody gave half the teams that actually won it a chance at the begnning of July.  If the Brewers go after Halladay that would give them a year and a half window to try to make a run during the postseason.  How often do you see teams looking to set up for the "future", only to have the "future" never happen, or realize that their "future" has already passed.  For a small market team like the Brewers, they need to try to win when they have a good nucleus of young talent (Braun, Fielder, Gallardo, Hardy and Hart if they start playing again) because chances are you won't be able to keep all that young talent together when they hit the free agency market. 

You really contradict yourself when you discount all the young guys the Brewers have in the farm system ("the future"), saying they won't be able to step in someday for the big league club, but then scoff when the Crew tries to make a move by moving some of those same guys ("selling the future").

Give me Halladay, Gallardo, Braun, and Fielder in the playoffs.  If those 4 guys all heat up (a big if) they can single-handedly win you a lot of games in the postseason.   

The Angels.   They setup for the future every year which is why they consistently are in the playoffs every year.  Last year they went for the big free agent move, and it did not put them over the top (despite having the best record in the American League).

Usually we stand pat and keep bringing guys up through the farm system. It brought us one world title and a number of division titles (it sucks we're in the American league with two behemoths like the Sox and Yankees to contend with).  If you're going to make a major move, it better be to win it all not just to get into the playoffs.  If you get Halladay, you need to win it all because he isn't sticking around Milwaukee long term. 

Personally, I don't think Halladay would sign up to go to Milwaukee...I think he would say no with his no trade clause. 

[jmayer1]

Well if you would read what I previously wrote in the thread I said aside from Gamel and Escobar all you have is unproven guys who will be bad. To get Halladay I don't see how you wouldn't be losing these two guys who are good.  Thus I am excited you will lose Gamel and Escobar who I already said are good. 

Where did my post condrict my earlier statement? 

As for the playoffs, the times a good team wins still outnumbers the times a bad team takes it by a good margin.  While it is a crapshoot you still have to be realistic.

I was more referring to this quote: "And if he never does become Major League ready maybe you misjudged him like all of the players you have slotted to fill your team in the upcoming years..."  I thought you were including Gamel and Escobar in that quote, but I did see where you said they "weren't a big pile of crap."

Yes, the Brewers do have to be realistic, and realize that as a small market team they will have a tough time competing year in and year out over a long stretch of time.  When they have good, young, and cheap talent they might have to make some moves to try to put them over the top.

Chicos, I didn't realize the Angels were a small market team.  I must have been fooled by the fact that they have been in the top 6 in payroll every year over the last 6.  Or it could have also been the fact that Fuentes, Abreu, Hunter, Matthews, Escobar, Colon, and Guererro were all obtained through high-dollar free agency contracts (they did get Abreu on the cheap).  Not to mention that they offered Texiera $160 million last offseason as well. 

Obviously, they've brought up some guys through the system as well (Kendrick, Figgins, Garrett Anderson, Lackey) but don't try to say that the Angels "Usually stand pat and keep bringing guys up through the farm system" and try to compare them to the Brewers.  I mean Jeff Suppan is the Brewer's biggest free agent signing EVER at $42 million (man I bet they wish they could have that one back) for goodness sake.  Now, I'm not saying the Angels are wrong/bad for doing this because obviously they have been very successful in recent years, I'm just try to point out that you didn't make a very valid comparison.

I agree I don't think they will get Halladay either, not because of the no-trade clause, but because I really don't think Melvin wants to give that much up (whether that's right or wrong).  Of course, I thought there was no way they were getting CC last year either so what do I know.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos, I didn't realize the Angels were a small market team.  I must have been fooled by the fact that they have been in the top 6 in payroll every year over the last 6.  Or it could have also been the fact that Fuentes, Abreu, Hunter, Matthews, Escobar, Colon, and Guererro were all obtained through high-dollar free agency contracts (they did get Abreu on the cheap).  Not to mention that they offered Texiera $160 million last offseason as well. 

Obviously, they've brought up some guys through the system as well (Kendrick, Figgins, Garrett Anderson, Lackey) but don't try to say that the Angels "Usually stand pat and keep bringing guys up through the farm system" and try to compare them to the Brewers.  I mean Jeff Suppan is the Brewer's biggest free agent signing EVER at $42 million (man I bet they wish they could have that one back) for goodness sake.  Now, I'm not saying the Angels are wrong/bad for doing this because obviously they have been very successful in recent years, I'm just try to point out that you didn't make a very valid comparison.

I agree I don't think they will get Halladay either, not because of the no-trade clause, but because I really don't think Melvin wants to give that much up (whether that's right or wrong).  Of course, I thought there was no way they were getting CC last year either so what do I know.

And here I thought for sure we were talking about mid season acquisitions when I was referencing standing pat...silly me.   

Abreu...OFFSEASON acquisition
Hunter...OFFSEASON acquisition
Matthews...OFFSEASON acquisition
Escobar....OFFSEASON acquisition
Colon...OFFSEASON acquisition
Guerrero...OFFSEASON acquisition

I was talking about standing pat at the trading deadline which is what the whole discussion was about with the players you mentioned.

Yes, the Angels don't stand pat in the OFFSEASON, but mostly do during the season (last year being one of the rare exceptions when they went after Teixeira).


The Angels were ranked #1 farm system by Baseball America last year.  They've won the award of best minor league system 3 times in the last 6 years and finished runner-up once.  They believe in bringing guys up and plugging pieces. Unlike the Yankees who purchase everyone.   

And yes, we are a "big market" team now, of course it wasn't long ago that we weren't. In fact, when Schlessinger and I worked at the Angels, we most certainly were not.  We weren't small market, but we weren't big market either.  That changed when Moreno bought the team from Disney.


So to be clear, I was talking about mid season acquisitions.  Yes, we will continue to go out and get a few free agents and mix them in with our home grown talent.  We will not be a team that buys all their players.

[NavinRJohnson]

Well if you would read what I previously wrote in the thread I said aside from Gamel and Escobar all you have is unproven guys who will be bad.

You know that how exactly?

BTW, just so you know, Gamel and Escobar are also unproven.

[jmayer1]

The Angels.   They setup for the future every year which is why they consistently are in the playoffs every year.  Last year they went for the big free agent move, and it did not put them over the top (despite having the best record in the American League).

We were talking about midseason moves but once you mentioned a big free agent move (not a trade) I thought you were referring to the construction of your team in general.

I like how you chastise the Yankees for buying all their players, even though the Angels have relatively the same plan to build their team, just on a smaller scale.  Posada, Cano, Jeter, Cabrera, Pettite, Rivera, Joba, Hughes are all guys the Yankees have developed and are very big contributors to their team.  The main difference between the Yankees and the Angels, Red Sox, Tigers..etc is not really the amount of free agent acquistions (although they do tend to make a few more in-season trades that most other teams) but rather the scale of those acquisitions.  Arod, CC, and Texiera all make a ton of money, especially compared to trios like Vlad,  Escobar, and Hunter or Big Papi, Beckett, and Bay.

[ChicosBailBonds]

We were talking about midseason moves but once you mentioned a big free agent move (not a trade) I thought you were referring to the construction of your team in general.

I like how you chastise the Yankees for buying all their players, even though the Angels have relatively the same plan to build their team, just on a smaller scale.  Posada, Cano, Jeter, Cabrera, Pettite, Rivera, Joba, Hughes are all guys the Yankees have developed and are very big contributors to their team.  The main difference between the Yankees and the Angels, Red Sox, Tigers..etc is not really the amount of free agent acquistions (although they do tend to make a few more in-season trades that most other teams) but rather the scale of those acquisitions.  Arod, CC, and Texiera all make a ton of money, especially compared to trios like Vlad,  Escobar, and Hunter or Big Papi, Beckett, and Bay.

Well, you and I will have to disagree.

Starting first baseman = Angels system
Starting second baseman = Angels system
Starting Shortstop = Angels system
Starting third baseman = Angels system
Starting catchers (both, split time) = Angels system
Starting pitcher 1 = Angels system
Starting pitcher 2 = Angels system
Starting pitcher 3 = Angels system
Starting pitcher 4 = Angels system
Starting pitcher 5 = Would have been Nick Adenhardt who was killed this year...Angels system

So the entire starting infield and the pitchers 1 through 4 starters this year are all Angels system guys.  Plus a good chunk of the bullpen is also Angels guys (Shields, Mosely, Jepsen, etc)

The only guys that aren't are the three outfielders and Maicer Izturis (who the Angels got after his rookie year when he played a whopping 32 games for the Expos).

I'd call that mostly Angels system guys.  Where the difference is with the Yankees, in my opinion, is that they do go after quantity...Sabathia, Burnett, Damon, Mitre, Molina, A-Rod, Teixiera, Hinske, Swisher, and Matsui.   They're loaded with free agents all over the place on ANY given night.  The Angels are LOADED with system players on their team on any given night.

I'm sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree.  I don't see the similarities between the Angels and Yankees at all in team make up.


PS  When I say system guys, that doesn't always mean the club drafted them, but they obtained them while they were still in the minors and then developed them in their own minor league system.

[TallTitan34]

If you're going to make a major move, it better be to win it all not just to get into the playoffs.  If you get Halladay, you need to win it all because he isn't sticking around Milwaukee long term.   

100% agree. When you make a move you should ask does this bring us closer to a championship?  That's why I like what the White Sox are doing. They realize that even though they are a game out, selling may actually be the way to bring a championship sooner.  Especially with their very difficult second half schedule which could very likely cause them to miss the playoffs. 

By trading for Halladay, the Brewers ate settling for just making the playoffs and not winning a championship.

[Hards Alumni]

so the Brewers trade for Peavy.  The next 25 games are all against easier teams... so by the time Peavy gets back and is ready to go, they are in the home stretch of games... plus they can keep him longer than Halladay.