Baseball Pissing Match

[LON]

Hahahaha you Brewer fans are hilarious.

Aside from Gamel and Escobar sounds like a big pile of bad to me.  They will fit well with Suppan, Bush, and Looper.

Do you have a job or do you just watch the Brewers farm teams all the time to make a comment like that?

[🏀]

So you don't think Jake Fox has a higher "ceiling" than anyone else on the Cubs' big-league roster?

Absolutely not. Jake Fox's ceiling in nowhere near what DLee, Aramis, Soriano & Bradley have been.

Personally, Jake Fox is an alright player. He swings really hard, but he'll never be an all-star.

[🏀]

Do you have a job or do you just watch the Brewers farm teams all the time to make a comment like that?

I doubt he does, but it doesn't take much to have read a couple top 100 prospects lists to know. I also assume that TT34 isn't a delusion Brewer fan that believes every team in the minor leagues will someday be the Brewers lineup.

[IAmMarquette]

Absolutely not. Jake Fox's ceiling in nowhere near what DLee, Aramis, Soriano & Bradley have been.

Personally, Jake Fox is an alright player. He swings really hard, but he'll never be an all-star.

So a rookie will likely never be as good as four All-Stars? Quite a leap. Go back to my original question, where I asked if you thought Jake Fox would never be as good as anyone on the Cubs big league roster. You countered with players who (at least at one point in their careers) have been all stars, but for the convenience of your argument, you ignored players like Andres Blanco, Jeff Baker, Koyie Hill, and Micah Hoffpauir. There is no way you can tell me with a straight face that a Jake Fox or a Sam Fuld will NEVER be as good or better than these guys.

[🏀]

So a rookie will likely never be as good as four All-Stars? Quite a leap. Go back to my original question, where I asked if you thought Jake Fox would never be as good as anyone on the Cubs big league roster. You countered with players who (at least at one point in their careers) have been all stars, but for the convenience of your argument, you ignored players like Andres Blanco, Jeff Baker, Koyie Hill, and Micah Hoffpauir. There is no way you can tell me with a straight face that a Jake Fox or a Sam Fuld will NEVER be as good or better than these guys.

You asked about Jake Fox. Jake Fox can play 3B, 1B & the outfield corners. Who did I compare him to then?

[TallTitan34]

This is what you Brewer fans don't understand. You have to be realistic about your players in your farm system.

Your argument is equivalent to me bragging about Jake Fox, Micah Hoffpauir, Sam Fuld, Josh Vitters, etc.  These guys have played great but that doesn't mean they are going to be good players.  You guys need to be realistic.  You have all of your farm system getting called up to the show.

Jake Fox has came up and played out of his mind.  Could he be better than DLee someday?  Possible but not likely at all.

Josh Vitters is considered the top prospect for the Cubs and better than most of the guys you named in your A and AA clubs.  But he is unproven.  He hasn't played himself past AA.  He is just as likely to flake out as he is to make it to the bigs.  Prospects flake out all the time.  

Be realistic and dont schedule a guy in A ball to be on your team by next year.

[TallTitan34]

Also I posted this in this other thread but this system will show how well Ryan Braun gets to balls.  And before you make a Soriano comment I don't claim that Soriano is a good fielder.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15101.0

[wadesworld]

You asked about Jake Fox. Jake Fox can play 3B, 1B & the outfield corners. Who did I compare him to then?

To the players he mentioned in his most recent post?  So you can only compare players that play the same position now?  So I can't say that Ryan Braun is better than Jason Kendall because one is a left fielder and the other is a catcher?  That's news to me.

This is what you Brewer fans don't understand. You have to be realistic about your players in your farm system.

Your argument is equivalent to me bragging about Jake Fox, Micah Hoffpauir, Sam Fuld, Josh Vitters, etc.  These guys have played great but that doesn't mean they are going to be good players.  You guys need to be realistic.  You have all of your farm system getting called up to the show.

Jake Fox has came up and played out of his mind.  Could he be better than DLee someday?  Possible but not likely at all.

Josh Vitters is considered the top prospect for the Cubs and better than most of the guys you named in your A and AA clubs.  But he is unproven.  He hasn't played himself past AA.  He is just as likely to flake out as he is to make it to the bigs.  Prospects flake out all the time.  

Be realistic and dont schedule a guy in A ball to be on your team by next year.

I like how you're clumping all Brewer fans into a category based on what 1 person is arguing.  I'm pretty sure most of the Brewers fan arguing on this topic are saying that top prospects have more potential (and thus a higher ceiling) than MLB players who are proven to not be very good players.  Could these players with potential be busts?  Absolutely.  But does that mean that right now they do not have potential, and a high ceiling?  Absolutely not.  Not every player reaches their ceiling, just so you know.

All I argued is that you seem to like to make fun of how TERRIBLE Brewers pitching is, and your team is still 1 1/2 games behind the Brewers in the standings more than 1/2 way into the season.  And yet none of you "are willing to admit" you have a bad team.  It's really quite comical.

[wadesworld]

Also I posted this in this other thread but this system will show how well Ryan Braun gets to balls.  And before you make a Soriano comment I don't claim that Soriano is a good fielder.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15101.0

Are you saying this shows how bad he is at getting to them?  Because I personally do not see a word about Ryan Braun in there...

...and talk about an obsession.  That argument has been dead for quite a while.  Now you bring this up as though it is fact with absolutely no mention of him.

[jmayer1]

Also I posted this in this other thread but this system will show how well Ryan Braun gets to balls.  And before you make a Soriano comment I don't claim that Soriano is a good fielder.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15101.0

That will be really sweet.  I love looking at all the sabermetric type of stuff and this will for sure give a ton of new stats.

[🏀]

That will be really sweet.  I love looking at all the sabermetric type of stuff and this will for sure give a ton of new stats.

This really will be great. This will also give an indication of the difficulty of ballpark layouts.

To the players he mentioned in his most recent post?  So you can only compare players that play the same position now?  So I can't say that Ryan Braun is better than Jason Kendall because one is a left fielder and the other is a catcher?  That's news to me.

Really? Why would you compare a catcher to an outfielder? Baseball is an offensive and defensive game right? So if we were looking at the potential of player, why ignore one half of the game?

[wadesworld]

Really? Why would you compare a catcher to an outfielder? Baseball is an offensive and defensive game right? So if we were looking at the potential of player, why ignore one half of the game

So you can't say some first baseman is bad at defense and bad at offense and that some center fielder is great at defense and good at offense and conclude that the center fielder is a better player?  You're really telling me that you can't compare players in different positions?

[TallTitan34]

And yet none of you "are willing to admit" you have a bad team.  It's really quite comical.

Are you kidding me?  Cubs fans are pissed at how crappy the Cubs are this year.

Just because we say your team sucks (fact) it doesnt mean we don't think our team sucks as well.

I like our bad teams chances over your bad team.  Your bad team has no pitching.

[TallTitan34]

Also GM's arent going to want your A and AA prospects.  They want proven guys liek Gordon Beckham for the White Sox.

[🏀]

So you can't say some first baseman is bad at defense and bad at offense and that some center fielder is great at defense and good at offense and conclude that the center fielder is a better player?  You're really telling me that you can't compare players in different positions?

Sure, if you want to. I don't think it's fair when other positions are much more difficult to play.

[BrewCity83]

Geovany Soto may be out for 30 days.  I wonder if he'll light anything up with all that time to kill.

[IAmMarquette]

You asked about Jake Fox. Jake Fox can play 3B, 1B & the outfield corners. Who did I compare him to then?

I did ask about Jake Fox. I also asked about whether or not you thought he could one day, possibly, just maybe, be better than ANY ONE player on the Cubs roster. I made no stipulation on position. You came back with position-specific players who have been All-Stars. Apples:Oranges. Easy to make an argument when you don't play by the rules (of basic logic).

I completely agree with wadesworld that you can absolutely compare players who play different positions. Let's compare Bill Hall (3B) and Ryan Braun (LF).

Without getting into stats, let's compare these two:
-Defensively, it's probably a push, with Hall maybe getting a slight edge.
-Offensively, Braun is CLEARLY the better player. So much so that anyone who knows anything about baseball would tell you that Ryan Braun is a better BASEBALL PLAYER than Bill Hall.

Is that an adequate comparison of 2 players at different positions?

[wadesworld]

I'm glad to see you can admit that. I, however, won't admit the Cubs are a bad team.

TT, I'm just curious, but what does this mean from PTM then, if the Cubs fans are willing to admit that they have a bad team?

[TallTitan34]

Right because 100% of every fandom agrees on everything wadesworld.

I do believe right now we are bad. I do believe we have the best shot of getting better though.

It's all opinion. I think Rocky VI is the best while PTM thinks Rocky I is.   

[🏀]

Right because 100% of every fandom agrees on everything wadesworld.

I do believe right now we are bad. I do believe we have the best shot of getting better though.

It's all opinion. I think Rocky VI is the best while PTM thinks Rocky I is.   

I'm pretty sure you think Rocky IV is the best. No way you think Mason "The Line" Dixon was a worthy opponet. Plus, there was no robot.

If Aramis fails to return to his post-injury stats, this Cubs team is not good.

IAM, I understand what you are saying. LF and 3B are both positions where weaker defensive players are hidden.

Anyways, let's take Josh Vitters from the Cubs. He's a top 50 prospect, but until he actually plays in the MLB, I'm not ready to say he can be better than anyone. Its such a mental and physical hurdle that prospects are more likely to fail then be the players they are slotted to be.

[wadesworld]

Are you kidding me?  Cubs fans are pissed at how crappy the Cubs are this year.

Just because we say your team sucks (fact) it doesnt mean we don't think our team sucks as well.

I like our bad teams chances over your bad team.  Your bad team has no pitching.

Right because 100% of every fandom agrees on everything wadesworld.

I do believe right now we are bad. I do believe we have the best shot of getting better though.

It's all opinion. I think Rocky VI is the best while PTM thinks Rocky I is.  

So first, when I ask how the Cubs "fandom" think the Brewers are bad but say the Cubs are not, despite being a game and a half behind the Brewers in the standings, the Cubs "fandom" do, in fact, think the Cubs are bad, just not as bad as the Brewers (again, despite being a game and a half behind them in the standings).  Then, after a quote of one of these fans stating otherwise, I am the one at fault for generalizing all Cubs fans, despite you, yourself, doing just that in the previous post.  Typical Cubs logic.

[wadesworld]

1st no hitter of the season thrown tonight...

[copious1218]

Geovany Soto may be out for 30 days.  I wonder if he'll light anything up with all that time to kill.

Why do Brewers fans care so much about Soto smoking pot when one of their top pitching prospects has failed THREE drug tests.  People in glass houses . . .

[muwarrior87]

Why do Brewers fans care so much about Soto smoking pot when they have one of their top pitching prospects has failed THREE drug tests.  People in glass houses . . .

I was really hoping Ari didn't bring up Jeffries. He's one failed test away from never playing another game professionally again.  As much potential as he has, it doesn't mean a thing if he throws it all away.

[IAmMarquette]

I'm pretty sure you think Rocky IV is the best. No way you think Mason "The Line" Dixon was a worthy opponet. Plus, there was no robot.

If Aramis fails to return to his post-injury stats, this Cubs team is not good.

IAM, I understand what you are saying. LF and 3B are both positions where weaker defensive players are hidden.

Anyways, let's take Josh Vitters from the Cubs. He's a top 50 prospect, but until he actually plays in the MLB, I'm not ready to say he can be better than anyone. Its such a mental and physical hurdle that prospects are more likely to fail then be the players they are slotted to be.

Fair enough.