Baseball Pissing Match

[NavinRJohnson]

Since some of you Brewer fans don't understand anything, I'll simplfy it.

Brewers Starting Pitching:  Bad
Brewers bullpen: Good
Brewers Offense:  Good

Cubs Starting Pitching:  Good
Cubs Bullpen: Bad
Cubs Offense:  Bad

Yes the Brewers struggled to score runs in the 3 losses to the Cubs but that's because they faced great pitching.

Yes the Brewers Cubs struggled to score runs in the 3 losses to the Cubs two of the 4 games against the Brewers but that's because they faced great average to above average pitching (according to you bad).

Even if the Brewers make a trade for a starter, that still leaves three bad 2 decent and 1 bad starters for you guys.

The Cubs had two guys come back last night which COULD jump start the offense.  In the last few weeks the offense Derrik Lee has been heating up with the weather which is also a good sign.

I'll take the Cubs problems over the Brewers problems.

There. Got that all fixed up for you.

The Cubs roughed up 2 guys that will not be anywhere near the rotation in another week or so. Not saying the Brewers rotation will be as good as the Cubs, but if they add a guy, which I believe they will, the gap narrows considerably (Especially when Z flakes out every 4th start or so, and Harden goes back on the DL). McClung goes back to the bullpen, Burns goes back to Nashville, and the rotation is fairly solid, with Manny Parra potentially able to come back and provide an additional boost later in the season as well. I'm not thrilled with it, but it is probably not as bad as it appears.  

[BrewCity83]

Name a newguy that you have heard that is on the market during the trade deadline.

I would take someone like lohse or Randy Wells over Looper or Bush.  And Suppan, he just isn't that good

I have heard that Doug Davis is available, for example.  Hopefully as some more teams drop out of contention more teams become sellers and we can get somebody better.  Doug Davis is no CC, but he would strengthen the staff.  Looper, Bush and Suppan are not superstars but they are not bad.  With the Brewers offense, these type of pitchers can win games.

[muwarrior87]

I would be pretty happy with that if the Crew could get DD back in town.  He's another lefty that can be productive at the tail end of the rotation.  Looks like Halladay is being shopped.  The price tag would probably be a bit high since the Crew will not want to part with one of their top prospects like they did with CC though.

[BrewCity83]

JJ Hardy could be tradeable since we have Escobar waiting in the wings.  Corey Hart could also be had, but I suspect Melvin would only put him into a deal for a leadoff hitter (Juan Pierre?).  Melvin does not want to trade Escobar or Gamel.

[🏀]

JJ Hardy could be tradeable since we have Escobar waiting in the wings.  Corey Hart could also be had, but I suspect Melvin would only put him into a deal for a leadoff hitter (Juan Pierre?).  Melvin does not want to trade Escobar or Gamel.

I love that Escobar and Gamel are already premiere MLB players in your eyes.

[BrewCity83]

They are not already premeire players.  I did not say that; I said that Melvin won't trade them now. 

But they are valuable because they are inexpensive for the next 3-4 years and can start to contribute very soon.  They also probably have much higher ceilings than the guys who started the season at short and 3rd (Hardy and Hall).  They could both probably be plugged in to the current lineup and the team would still be contending (provided the starting pitching is stabilized).

[🏀]

They are not already premeire players.  I did not say that; I said that Melvin won't trade them now. 

But they are valuable because they are inexpensive for the next 3-4 years and can start to contribute very soon.  They also probably have much higher ceilings than the guys who started the season at short and 3rd (Hardy and Hall).  They could both probably be plugged in to the current lineup and the team would still be contending (provided the starting pitching is stabilized).

This could not be more wrong. Hall and Hardy have much higher ceilings because they have performed at this level and been successful. Possibly more potential? Sure, but there are more potential failures than there are proven major leaguers.

When Gamel was plugged into the lineup eariler this year, how did that go? What about LaPorta with Cleveland, since he was the last hot-to-trot Brewers' minor leaguer.

[BrewCity83]

This could not be more wrong. Hall and Hardy have much higher ceilings because they have performed at this level and been successful. Possibly more potential? Sure, but there are more potential failures than there are proven major leaguers.

When Gamel was plugged into the lineup eariler this year, how did that go? What about LaPorta with Cleveland, since he was the last hot-to-trot Brewers' minor leaguer.

Do you even know what a ceiling is??  How could you say that Escobar and Gamel may have more potential but lower ceilings?  You are contradicting yourself in the same statement!!

[NavinRJohnson]

Sure, but there are more potential failures than there are proven major leaguers.

Not where the Doug Melvin/Jack Z. led Brewers minor league system is concerned. Their hit:miss ratio of the past several years is off the charts, at least for position players. Very few of any minor league prospects they have touted to any degree have not panned out in the bigs.

When Gamel was plugged into the lineup eariler this year, how did that go?

Really? Is that a serious question? First off, he wasn't plugged into the line up. He has had a grand total of 93 ABs in sporadic duty over 2 months. I am not suggesting he has set the world on fire, but being a guy just up from AAA with very erratic playing time he managed to hit .247 w/2 HR and 12 RBI, and a .352 OBP. There is nothing to suggest that with regular AB's he will not put up numbers similar to what he did in the minor leagues.

As to why he hasn't had more ABs...could have something to do with the .315 avg, and .380 OBP Counsell and McGehee have combined to put up.

What about LaPorta with Cleveland, since he was the last hot-to-trot Brewers' minor leaguer.

I guess you answered your own question there.

[🏀]

Do you even know what a ceiling is??  How could you say that Escobar and Gamel may have more potential but lower ceilings?  You are contradicting yourself in the same statement!!

Escobar and Gamel may be great with loads of potential, but they no ceiling to compare to proven major league players. It's completely different ballgame where there are loads of potential in the minors and absolutely nothing when they get their cup of coffee.

[BrewCity83]

Escobar and Gamel may be great with loads of potential, but they no ceiling to compare to proven major league players.

What does that even mean?  I'll ask again...do you even know what a ceiling is?

It's completely different ballgame where there are loads of potential in the minors and absolutely nothing when they get their cup of coffee.

I think Doug Melvin knows what he's doing.  He's had a great track record with bringing minor league position players up with the Brewers.  He know with these guys, it won't be a cup of coffee..it'll be more like a Starbucks' franchise.

[reinko]

Escobar and Gamel may be great with loads of potential, but they no ceiling to compare to proven major league players. It's completely different ballgame where there are loads of potential in the minors and absolutely nothing when they get their cup of coffee.

Just to be clear, studs in the minor leagues have no ceiling but potential correct?  So, essentially no college basketball players have ceilings either, because they have played a game in the NBA?  Ricky Rubio has no ceiling because he played in Europe?  Steven Strasburg has loads of talent, but no ceiling?  Mel Kiper Jr. and Chad Ford don't use the term "ceiling" during their respective drafts, right?

[wadesworld]

Hi wade,

You were answering my question...which you still haven't answered.

Your telling me that you aren't worried if you lose 6 of 7 to teams that are near the top of the division.

I bet you wish Ryan Braun shared your optimism.  To quote slick Rick "Sabathia is not walking through those doors!"

What?  I'm answering your question, yet I didn't answer your question?  That makes no sense.

But if you must have the answer to that precise question, yes, I am telling you that if we lose 6 of 7 games to teams that are near the top of the division I will still not be worried.  If the Cardinals sweep us that leaves us still only 4 games out of the division.  Like I said, the whole division is garbage, it's just the best garbage is going to win.  Why would I be scared of anyone when we're only 4 games back with half a season to play, and every team in the division has major flaws?  Does that answer the question?  Is it clear enough?  I'm going to go ahead and guess that you Cubs fans will take out of this that I am saying we will win the division easily, but that is not what I'm saying at all.  Like I said at the start of the year, I think the Cardinals will.  But I am also not going to quit on this season because we went on a streak of 6 out of 7 losses to the Cubs and Cardinals.  Clear?

Yup, the Brewers have flaws and Ryan Braun sees them.  He's not the only one who sees them.  I suppose the Cubs don't have flaws though.  Yet they're still a game behind the Brewers.  It's pretty weird how that works.

[robmufan]

You put it under an attack of PTM Wade...

So i was just pointing out, I was the one that asked the question, not PTM, so don't criticize him for something he didn't ask

[TallTitan34]

I'm surprised there are no Brewer fans here cheering Ryan Dempster's broken toe.  You guys were all giddy about Aramis.

Also I didn't realize how PO'd Doug Melvin is at Ryan Braun for essentially crapping on his team.

[wadesworld]

Also I didn't realize how PO'd Doug Melvin is at Ryan Braun for essentially crapping on his team.

...or just 2 replacement starting pitchers?

[🏀]

Brew City and reinko,

What is meant is that you cannot compare a minor leaguer to a major leaguer. To say that a minor leaguer is already better than Bill Hall or JJ Hardy could not be more of an incorrect statement. To say that a minor leaguer has a higher ceiling (meaning his best game will be better than anothers) before he has even stepped in the MLB diamond is just stupid. Baseball unlike any other sport is more of a crapshot regarding prospects than any other sport.

Sure, Melvin has had a decent recent streak of success, so have another general managers. Those same GMs have been wrong, as Melvin has also been wrong, if he was the best GM to ever scout players do you think he'd be in Arlington for all those years? Or even be interested in the Brewers if he was the best talent scout ever? Let's get real here.

Take a look at the lists of top prospects from the last 10 years, you'll see plenty of names that never panned out. Just like Escobar and Gamel might not pan out. Just like the NEXT BIG BREWER BOPPER that everyone wanted to trade Prince away for because he was so good, Matt LaPorta.

[NavinRJohnson]

If the brewers lose 2 of 3 to the cardinals...are you going to admit that there may be a problem?

The Cardinals are 2-4 against the Brewers this season...do the Cardinals have a problem? They lost 7 of 9 to the Reds, Pirates and Brewers...did they have a problem? The Cubs lost 8 in a row at one point, and later lost 7 of 9? Do they have a problem?

Its a long season, and the number that matters is the one under the W after 162 games.

[NavinRJohnson]

if he was the best GM to ever scout players do you think he'd be in Arlington for all those years? Or even be interested in the Brewers if he was the best talent scout ever? Let's get real here.

I'm curious who ever said that.

Just like the NEXT BIG BREWER BOPPER that everyone wanted to trade Prince away for because he was so good, Matt LaPorta.

Yet the Brewers traded him away...Hmmmm. Still, in your odd little baseball world, he hasn't panned out because he hasn't hit in his whopping 42 MLB ABs. Lets get real here indeed.

[BrewCity83]

To say that a minor leaguer is already better than Bill Hall or JJ Hardy could not be more of an incorrect statement.

Who ever said that?  Nobody said or even insinuated "already better".

Melvin thinks that Escobar can replace Hardy at short and Gamel can replace Hall at third.  He is more willing to trade these established players, who probably have higher trade value, than the up-and-coming studs who he believes can eventually become better than Hall and Hardy.

[NavinRJohnson]

Melvin thinks that Escobar can replace Hardy at short and Gamel can replace Hall at third.  He is more willing to trade these established players, who probably have higher trade value, than the up-and-coming studs who he believes can eventually become better than Hall and Hardy.

You had me up until you started taking about trade value. Bill Hall has no trade value. In fact his trade value is negative. Hardy probably has some, but certainly not higher than Gamel or Escobar. To a contending team, sure, but in general, no, and few if any contending teams are going to be willing to part with pitching, so that sort of eliminates Hardy's value to those teams.

[🏀]

Who ever said that?  Nobody said or even insinuated "already better".

Melvin thinks that Escobar can replace Hardy at short and Gamel can replace Hall at third.  He is more willing to trade these established players, who probably have higher trade value, than the up-and-coming studs who he believes can eventually become better than Hall and Hardy.

So Melvin will trade Hall and/or Hardy in the middle of a division race, and be perfectly fine with plugging in Escobar & Gamel?

[TallTitan34]

Gallardo, Looper, Suppan, Bush, Newguy.

Which three are bad?

Suppan, Bush, and Looper.

Bad. 

[BrewCity83]

You had me up until you started taking about trade value. Bill Hall has no trade value. In fact his trade value is negative. Hardy probably has some, but certainly not higher than Gamel or Escobar. To a contending team, sure, but in general, no, and few if any contending teams are going to be willing to part with pitching, so that sort of eliminates Hardy's value to those teams.

You are correct--Hall is untradeable at this point.  We're stuck with him.  I mis"spoke" on that one.  Hardy and Hart would have some pretty good value on the trade market and I'm pretty sure that Melvin would trade either or both of them if he could get a good starting pitcher (both if the Newguy is good enough and under contract beyond this year).

Some teams, such as Atlanta, may want a guy like Hardy and can probably spare some pitching.  It is a tough time to try and make a deal since the teams who have available pitching are really limited.  Toronto is now listening to proposed deals for Halladay.  He would be a race changer.

[BrewCity83]

Suppan, Bush, and Looper.

Bad. 

With the Brewers' offense, those are all we need to win games.  If we had one more guy like SuppanBushLooper to add to Gallardo, we can probably win the division with our hitting.