Baseball Pissing Match

[🏀]

The Happy blog no longer has any entries, and all the links are broken.
http://thehappyyoungster.mlblogs.com/

Ass.

When you know you've done wrong, and you're a complete ass, the best reaction is to close up shop.

I don't have any tickets to Miller Park for the first time in a long time, but I want to go just to find this guy.

[Tortuga94]

Again, I think we can all agree that the guy is a jerk, but that is besides the point.  My point is that once the ball is in the stands it is his possession and he has the right to demand whatever he wants for it.  If he feels that the ball is worth two signed bats and some Marlin tickets, then it is up to the player to decide if that is a fair price or not.  If it is, pay it and don't complain if it isn't tell the guy to f' himself.  Simple as that.

[🏀]

Again, I think we can all agree that the guy is a jerk, but that is besides the point.  My point is that once the ball is in the stands it is his possession and he has the right to demand whatever he wants for it.  If he feels that the ball is worth two signed bats and some Marlin tickets, then it is up to the player to decide if that is a fair price or not.  If it is, pay it and don't complain if it isn't tell the guy to f' himself.  Simple as that.

Absolutely not.

[Tortuga94]

Can't commit an error on a ball you don't get to.   

And in his first season in a Cubs uni, Soriano had more OF assists than any Cub OF in the previous 50 seasons.

I don't quite understand your post.  Are you implying that Soriano has more range than Braun and therefore "gets" to more balls that is why he makes more errors?  Braun is one of the fastest players on the roster, I doubt Soriano has a significant edge in speed.  Braun reads the ball off the bat alot better than Soriano, that is why he is always in better position to make plays, speed or range has very little to do with it.  Braun is clearly a better defensive outfielder than Soriano at this point in their careers, but yes Soriano does have the better arm so he will get more assists than Braun.

[🏀]

I don't quite understand your post.  Are you implying that Soriano has more range than Braun and therefore "gets" to more balls that is why he makes more errors?  Braun is one of the fastest players on the roster, I doubt Soriano has a significant edge in speed.  Braun reads the ball of the bat alot better than Soriano, that is why he is always in better position to make plays, speed or range has very little to do with it.  Braun is clearly a better defensive outfielder than Soriano at this point in their careers, but yes Soriano does have the better arm so he will get more assists than Braun.

Anyone? Anyone?

Braun is one of the worst outfielders off the bat, not many fans here will argue that. He routinely is having to compensate for poor judgment, probably because he isn't in a natural position.

Soriano does have a significant advantage in speed.

Braun does not have the range that Soriano does, due to speed, reaction time & ball judgment. Thus he does not play as many balls, or come close to as many balls which may account for errors when someone like Soriano might get to.

The good thing for Braun is that his judgment and reaction time will improve in time.

[Tortuga94]

Anyone? Anyone?

Braun is one of the worst outfielders off the bat, not many fans here will argue that. He routinely is having to compensate for poor judgment, probably because he isn't in a natural position.

Soriano does have a significant advantage in speed.

Braun does not have the range that Soriano does, due to speed, reaction time & ball judgment. Thus he does not play as many balls, or come close to as many balls which may account for errors when someone like Soriano might get to.

The good thing for Braun is that his judgment and reaction time will improve in time.

I'm calling Balderdash on this one.

Braun has improved a ton in his 1 years in the outfield.  Maybe you just don't watch enough Brewers game, but he always seems to be in good position to make plays, hence no errors ever in left field.  The times I've watched the Cubs this year has been against the Brewers and Soriano has had a nightmare of a time in the field.  Maybe I haven't watched enough Cub games to see all of Soriano's webgems but from my limited exposure to him this year I would say he is not a better fielder than Braun.  As for speed, I'm sure Soriano has a slight edge, but only slight.  You underestimate Braun's speed his stolen base totals for the last two years 15, 14 compared to Soriano at 19, 19 so again not significantly more.  Braun doesn't hit into too many double plays either.

What I think most fans will not argue with is that having a choice, if you could only take one, most will take Ryan Braun to be their starting left fielder over Soriano.
 

[Brewtown Andy]

I don't quite understand your post.  Are you implying that Soriano has more range than Braun and therefore "gets" to more balls that is why he makes more errors?  Braun is one of the fastest players on the roster, I doubt Soriano has a significant edge in speed.  Braun reads the ball off the bat alot better than Soriano, that is why he is always in better position to make plays, speed or range has very little to do with it.  Braun is clearly a better defensive outfielder than Soriano at this point in their careers, but yes Soriano does have the better arm so he will get more assists than Braun.

I made a jokey point  about how easy it is to avoid committing an error, and then raise a point to defend Soriano's defense.  Neither of the two were really related to each other.

[Hards Alumni]

Anyone? Anyone?

Braun is one of the worst outfielders off the bat, not many fans here will argue that. He routinely is having to compensate for poor judgment, probably because he isn't in a natural position.

Soriano does have a significant advantage in speed.

Braun does not have the range that Soriano does, due to speed, reaction time & ball judgment. Thus he does not play as many balls, or come close to as many balls which may account for errors when someone like Soriano might get to.

The good thing for Braun is that his judgment and reaction time will improve in time.

absolute homer bias, but I guess that is what this thread is for.

[muwarrior87]

As far as Brauny's fielding goes...2 webgems last night and one play that he should have taken the initiative when Hardy was back tracking and the ball fell between them.  His mental errors do add up at times but that's understandable for a player that is in his second year in a position after playing infield his whole life.  He's improving and young enough to continue to grow into the position.

[BrewCity83]

And Braun plays hard ALL THE TIME.  Not like Sorry-ann-o who loafs around in the outfield half the time so you can't even tell whether he has good speed.

[🏀]

absolute homer bias, but I guess that is what this thread is for.

Do you want to argue it?

[MarquetteFan94]

The Brewer fans sure love their clever nicknames. Tiresome.  (I'm not sure that Sorry-Ann-O is phoenetically correct, may want to double check that one) Right up there with when a Bears fan uses Fudge Packers...hilarious....or cheesehead....Great stuff. It's just as funny when/if you read something on the ESPN college b-ball message boards about MU and people calling us "Fartquette."  Again, hilarious. And, yes, it happens.  Detracts from the point you're trying to make...if there is one.

The Soriano vs. Braun fielding debate is never going to get anywhere.  Both players were asked to play an unnatural/new position.  Soriano's been at it for a year or two longer than Braun.  Based on Braun's age compared to Soriano, I'd say he has a lot more upside.  They'll both misjudge balls...they'll both make their share of nice plays/throws too....who cares. 

Soriano wasn't brought to Chicago to win a gold glove.  He'll win more games with his bat than he'll lose with his glove.  Period.  Same can be said with Braun....for now.

[Ari Gold]

When you know you've done wrong, and you're a complete ass, the best reaction is to close up shop.

I don't have any tickets to Miller Park for the first time in a long time, but I want to go just to find this guy.

The happy youngster posted a douchetastic apology up and took his blog down: http://brewersfandemonium.yuku.com/topic/18836

"FACT:  Beginning this season, I have begun to bring the opponent's gear ONLY to wear during that team's portion of BP. As soon as their BP session is over, I put on my Happy Youngster shirt and Brewers hat. While some find this cheating, deceitful, despicable, disloyal...I find that it maximizes the total amount of baseballs that get tossed into the crowd."
He also uses a glove to snag balls. If you're over the age of 11 and take a glove to a game you aren't a man. (negating women since you are a guy to begin with)

I'll ask him to quietly turn in his brewer gear and any remaining tickets to respectable fans, that don't beat lil children/grand parents for baseballs

[Moonboots]

Do you want to argue it?

It's a difficult thing to dispute unless you start looking into fielding sabermetrics.  And even so, I'm not all that sold on the accuracy of those numbers. Too many variables go into the calculations.

That being said, I know I've watched Soriano make an ass of himself numerous times against the Brewers, including taking a nice little stroll on a ball in the 9th inning opening day that ate him up and got over his head for a rally starting double.

He also let a ball hit in his direction by Jason Kendall result in a triple.  Yes, a triple.  I'm not even sure how a ball hit by Kendall gets by anyone in the outfield, much less a good fielder.

[Mayor McCheese]

Do you want to argue it?

Why... all you stated were very broad claims that have no factual evidence behind them, just your normal use of very loose terms.

[Moonboots]

Why... all you stated were very broad claims that have no factual evidence behind them, just your normal use of very loose terms.

Where has PTM gone?  You figure he's been salivating to prove this point about Soriano vs. Braun for months now, and when given the chance, he disappears...


To justify what I said about the statistics being misleading, fan graphs puts FAR too much emphasis on the arm factor, which is the only thing keeping Soriano above water at this point.  Last year, Soriano had an Ultimate Zone Rating (UZR) of 2.5, of which 4.7 came from the arm factor, meaning the rest of his ability (range, errors) were below average. 

Furthermore, Soriano has tanked performance-wise in each of his three years in left field with the Cubs.  His UZR dropped from 18.4 (again... all arm) in '07 to 2.5 in '08 and -2.1 so far this season.  Meanwhile, Braun went from a -3.2 UZR last year to a -1.7 thus far this season (coincidentally... better than Mr. Soriano). 

Braun's not there yet, but he's close.  He's playing farther in now and allowing his athleticism to let him range back on balls easier.  The days of Braun getting consistently eaten up by balls in the gaps because of bad angles started disappearing about August of last season, but PTM will fondly reference this as if it were fact present day.  All of this comes at the expense of Braun being in his second full season at left field.  Ever. At any level. 

I know most of these numbers will mean nothing to most of you, but I know PTM knows what I'm talking about and planned on holding it over the heads of those who don't really follow advanced statistics.  That's not gonna cut it. Braun is improving in his second year at the position and Soriano is on a steady decline.

And if you feel these statistics are abstract and meaningless like I do... there's also the eye test, which puts Braun FAR ahead of Soriano in the field this year, probably to stay. 

Meanwhile, John Dewan (you know.. the writer of The Fielding Bible.. http://www.fieldingbible.com/) has Braun rated as a 7 to Soriano's 5 this year. 

And if you really want to get into it PTM, we could talk about how much of a fraud UZR statistics are to begin with.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=3410&position=3B/OF#fielding

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=847&position=2B/OF#fielding

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

There's the numbers and a glossary, in case anyone wants to take a look.

[NavinRJohnson]

Discussion of these guys' defense is pretty ridiculous. They're both fine, nothing more nothing less. Netither are particularly good, nor is either the worst LF you are likely to see throughout the course of a season. The point is, unless they are complete butchers out there, it doesn't matter. They're playing LF for a reason, so that they can be in the lineup to hit, and hot they do. Soriano is not quite the offensive player he once was at this point in his career, but still productive, and Braun at this point is obviously one of the more feared hitters in baseball. What they do in the outfield doesn't matter.

[wadesworld]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jon_heyman/05/20/trade.market/1.html

From the section "Around the Majors":
"• Ryan Braun is one terrific outfielder, no kidding. The move of Braun from third base to left field is one of the smartest things any team has done in years."

Weird

[Brewtown Andy]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jon_heyman/05/20/trade.market/1.html

From the section "Around the Majors":
"• Ryan Braun is one terrific outfielder, no kidding. The move of Braun from third base to left field is one of the smartest things any team has done in years."

Weird

So, if we give him another 120 feet to see the ball coming at him, his defense gets better?  There's a stunner.

[Mayor McCheese]

So, if we give him another 120 feet to see the ball coming at him, his defense gets better?  There's a stunner.

Do you, or have you ever played baseball.  If so, you would know that the outfield is completely different than playing the infield.  So much so, that there are even different types of gloves that a third baseman would wear that a Left Fielder wouldn't.  In left field, a lot is being able to react to it off of the bat.  Why do you think some people are specifically Right Fielders, and some Left?  The ball comes off the bat differently, and being able to react to the hit with quick timing is a difficult job.  Third base, you need quick reaction time and the ability to stay down onto the ball, one thing Braun had a terrible time with.

But your right, they are pretty much the same position.

But yeah, they're pretty much the same position.

[reinko]

Of all the mini pissing matches this thread is made up of...

~Wrigley Field vs. Miller Park
~Drunk Fans
~Offensive t-shirts
~Injuries
~Payroll
~Trades
~Starting pitching
~Prince Fat Jokes
~Z. is a nutjob
~Bandwagon fans
~Announcers
~Crazy Manager antics
~Milwaukee vs. Chicago as cities
~Crime rates
~Bean balls
~Playoffs
~Stupid nicknames

This dumb arguement about who is a better left fielder may trump them all as the lamest.  As a massive Brewer fan, last year Braun was D+ out there, this year, borderline B-.  So yeah he improved, but I would argue that he will never be totally comfortable out there.  And Soriano, always been a C+/B- and will most likely be always right around there.

Let's get back to a real arugement.  Wrigley Field is an armpit that is crumbling, and it is filled with drunk meatheads, bandwagon rich people, and sloppy drunk chicks.

[wadesworld]

So, if we give him another 120 feet to see the ball coming at him, his defense gets better?  There's a stunner.

It more has to do with the part of the quote that says "Ryan Braun is one terrific outfielder, no kidding."  Not quite sure if you read that part, but that has nothing to do with moving from 3rd base to left field, just being a terrific outfielder.  And this is coming from someone who is supposed to show no biases towards any team.  So considering how bad the Scrubs fans claim Braun is I find it weird that a writer for si.com calls him "terrific."

[Brewtown Andy]

Do you, or have you ever played baseball.  If so, you would know that the outfield is completely different than playing the infield.  So much so, that there are even different types of gloves that a third baseman would wear that a Left Fielder wouldn't.  In left field, a lot is being able to react to it off of the bat.  Why do you think some people are specifically Right Fielders, and some Left?  The ball comes off the bat differently, and being able to react to the hit with quick timing is a difficult job.  Third base, you need quick reaction time and the ability to stay down onto the ball, one thing Braun had a terrible time with.

But your right, they are pretty much the same position.

But yeah, they're pretty much the same position.

Oh calm down.

[wadesworld]

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/clip?id=4197331&categoryid=2521705
Cannon.  Weird.

Anyway, Scrubs get swept by the depleted Cards after the Brewers sweep them.

[Skatastrophy]

Anyway, Scrubs get swept by the depleted Cards after the Brewers sweep them.

In other news, the Brewers snap their 1 game losing streak :p