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27-10

Another top non-conf home game for DePaul

Started by PuertoRicanNightmare, December 13, 2006, 08:09:23 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

dwaderoy2004

you guys are all also forgetting the next year begins the big east/sec challenge.   whether or not we are part of the opening lineup remains to be seen:

http://thecardreport.blogspot.com/2006/06/big-eastsec-challenge-becomes-reality.html

MilTown

I was not aware of that. That would be a great addition to our schedule as long as we don't get stuck with Vandy! Any idea what the contract length is? 2 years +???

DoubleMU0609

It looks like the BigEast-SEC Challenge will be another neutral court situation.  Even with that, I think the complaint with the STHs is that they want another good game that they can go to at the BC.  I'd still look to see another marquee OOC game at the BC.  I agree that a game with KSU looks like it could be in the works.

ChicosBailBonds

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 13, 2006, 08:09:23 AM
They've got Wake Forest coming in tonight on the heels of Kansas with a game at UAB mixed in. Cal is coming in later this month. How are they able to get these great non-conference opponents when we keep hearing that football is required for "home and homes?"

I guess with UMBC, Oakland, Morgan St. and Savannah St. coming in, I shouldn't complain.

1) DePaul's athletic budget is smaller than ours
2) Marquette attempts to compete at high levels up and down the sports tier with all of our sports...DePaul does not.  DePaul puts all their eggs into men's hoops, women's hoops and a bit into softball.  Everything else be damned.  
3) MU's non-tuition waiver system means every athlete on scholarship the athletic deparment must pay the university for that tuition.  Not all schools do this.  If DePaul doesn't do this (I don't know the answer), then they would save significant amounts of money on there 200+ athletes right there (MU's bill would be around $6Million to $7Million alone on tuition reibursement).
4) Would you rather play at the Bradley Center or the All-State Arena
5) Would you rather have the Al or their practice facility

etc
etc

PuertoRicanNightmare

Good of you to bring up the Al! That was also paid for by donations from supporters...I assuming season ticket holders made up a lot of those donations. Yet they are still asked to pay for tickets to games against these cruddy teams.

DoubleMU suggested at least one more "marquee" game, which I guess I could live with. I'm not even suggesting some huge name. Somebody somewhat recognizable would suffice...St. Joe's, Xavier, Arizona St., Iowa St., Miami (Oh)...somebody we've freaking heard of!

Of course I would rather play at the Bradley Center than the Allstate Arena, but I don't see how that affects our schedule.

MarquetteFan94

Since we started this conversation by comparing our OOC home schedule with DePaul's the comparison between playing in the Allstate Arena vs. the Bradley Center is relevant....as is the AD budget.

By scheduling home and home games, whether with quality opponents or not, DePaul has to "buy" far fewer games.  This year their OOC schedule includes home and homes with:  Bradley, Northwestern, UAB, Wake and Cal.  I'm assuming the UAB games were the result of the C-USA early departure deal.

So that leaves 5 home OOC home games for DePaul this year and I'm fairly certain they didn't have to pay too much (i.e. nothing) for Kansas to come to Chicago...which means that they "bought" 4 home games this year....compared to the 9 that MU "bought"...including the B&G Classic (not the CBE games).  Say each home game costs MU $60,000 per opponent (complete guess) that's an extra $300k MU shelled out to get 5 additional OOC opponents on the home schedule....but with an average of 12,000+ per game in attendance...not a bad deal for MU.  We need the home game revenue, not a bunch of home and homes.

The $31M for the Al did largely come from donations from MU supporters...why shouldn't it?  Why not take advantage of the Final Four run?  Pretty smart in my eyes.  Ever notice that almost every building on campus is named after someone...Donations.  I'm sure David Straz was a great guy but they didn't name the business school after him only because of his ability to manage a balance sheet.

ChicosBailBonds

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 13, 2006, 02:53:11 PM
Good of you to bring up the Al! That was also paid for by donations from supporters...I assuming season ticket holders made up a lot of those donations. Yet they are still asked to pay for tickets to games against these cruddy teams.

DoubleMU suggested at least one more "marquee" game, which I guess I could live with. I'm not even suggesting some huge name. Somebody somewhat recognizable would suffice...St. Joe's, Xavier, Arizona St., Iowa St., Miami (Oh)...somebody we've freaking heard of!

Of course I would rather play at the Bradley Center than the Allstate Arena, but I don't see how that affects our schedule.


Yes it was, but the continued operating costs of the building are not paid by those donations.

Incidentally, Marquette is in the Maui Classic next year just as DePaul was this year.


Playing at the Bradley Center effects our schedule because we pay the BC about $20,000 each game in rent.  Last I checked DePaul was paying about $4500.


The biggest reason is wins and losses....MU is going to get 20 wins a year with it's schedule and play in post season tournaments.  DePaul with their tougher schedule rarely goes to the NCAA and draws about half the fans we do despite their "fan friendly" schedule.


Which begs the question at the end of the day....do fans want to see a winner that goes to the post season that plays a competitive schedule?  Or do fans want awesome opponents to come into their building only to watch their team lose so much that the building has only 6000 souls in it?    I'm sure your answer would be that fans want to see both.  If it were only that easy. 

Let us also clearly understand that as pathetic as DePaul has been the last 5 years, teams like KU, Duke, etc will go to Chicago to play them because it's going to be a road win.  Duke has consistently told Marquette NO GO in terms of playing in the Bradley Center.  North Carolina backed out of their return to Milwaukee.  Scheduling is a two way street, you have to have a willing participant.  When you suck, lots of teams will come to your home gym.  When you're good, those options dry up.

PuertoRicanNightmare

I was not aware of the huge disparity in rent...that's a huge advantage for DePaul. You're right about that.

Of course I want to play in the NCAA tournament (not just "the post season" as you put it), but I also enjoy attending Marquette games. But I refuse to drive an hour and half to "support the team" against Maryland Baltimore-County and the rest of what they are offering. Does that make me less of a fan? Hardly. I'm typical of the fans they're counting on (taking advantage of?) to pay their bills!

MilTown

#33
Hey Chico's, ask Kansas about that road win at DePaul they have this year. Also, ask Wake Forest about last year. I don't think they are chalking up a win at DePaul tonight.

Bottom line is that our non-conf schedule sucks.

MonsterWebWarrior

I see two other things that could affecct scheduling.  DePaul absolutely needs to schedule big teams to get anyone to even show up at their games.  Our fans are much more loyal.  We'll sell 12,000 tickets to a no-name team.  DePaul sells that many for their biggest games.  If I'm Duke or Kansas, where would you rather play a game?   Big city Chicago or small city Milwaukee?  If I'm them, I'm playing in Chicago almost every time.
"We need to get back to eating hamburgers."  - Buzz Williams

Big Papi

Quote from: spiral97 on December 13, 2006, 10:39:54 AM
Quote from: mufanatic on December 13, 2006, 10:28:50 AM
music selection

???

Yes music selection.  The band is no longer prominent as TC wanted to go with a more pro type atmosphere a la the Bucks.  Also, I might have read it on this board or on scout but someone at the NDST game mentioned that TC was requesting a specific song to be played during a timeout to help pump up the crowd.  Regardless, based on all the stories out there it should come as no surprise that TC is a very detailed oriented man in everything related to MU.

spiral97

ahh.. here I was thinking you were talking about the band music.. that's what the director is for.. I could see Crean talking to him in general terms for strategy but not really getting into the specifics..

still.. I would doubt he spends THAT much time on it.. but I digress..  ;)
Once a warrior always a warrior.. even if the feathers must now come with a beak.

ChicosBailBonds

Quote from: MilTown on December 13, 2006, 05:06:17 PM
Hey Chico's, ask Kansas about that road win at DePaul they have this year. Also, ask Wake Forest about last year. I don't think they are chalking up a win at DePaul tonight.

Bottom line is that our non-conf schedule sucks.

Miltown...Kansas won't even play MU at MU because they look at it as a 50-50 proposition as a loss.  They scheduled DePaul because it's Chicago, against a Big East team and they had a 85% chance of winning.  In fact, they probably overlooked DePaul and thus lost.

That's the difference....we cannot get many good teams to come in a play us.  I know of some very high level teams we have tried to get in to play us in the last 5 years and they all said "NO THANKS...Milwaukee is too tough a place to play".

That's reality.  Crean has shared publicly who some of those teams are.

Marquette84

#38
I'm still waiting for someone--anyone--to explain precisely how DePaul's tough schedule last season helped them prepare for the Big East.

Of course we all know that DePaul wasn't helped by their schedule--they played the toughest non-conference schedule in the Big East.  And they failed to qualify for the tournament.

Now, I don't know what you supporters of the "prepare for the conference" meant by that.  Perhaps you really thought that DePaul's sole objective was to move up from 16th place to a 3 way tie for 13th.  

Once again we have the completely unsubstantiated claim that playing tougher teams helps prepare a team for the rigors of the conference season.  Unless your point is that a tough schedule helped PREPARED DEPAUL TO LOSE!!!

It would be one thing if DePaul were the exception.  But they're not--the rule is that generally, the toughest schedules were left out come selection day, and the easier schedules made the NCAA and finished in the upper half of the Big East standings.  Sure, there were exceptions (USF, Villanova).  

Among the tough schedules:
DePaul: Toughest schedule--tied for 13th and DNQ for BET.
Providence:  2nd toughest schedule--tied for 13th and DNQ for BET.
Cincy:  3rd toughest schedule--8th in conference and no NCAA

And the cupcakes?
Pitt:  2nd easiest schedule--tied for 4th in conference
UConn:  3rd easiest schedule--tied for first in conference
Georgetown:  4th easiest schedule--tied for 4th in conference
Pitt:  2nd Easiest schedule--tied for 4th.

8 teams had SOS ranked among the top 100 in the nation.  Just 3 made the NCAA tournament--and Syracuse only made it only because they did well in the league tourney.  A first or second rould loss would have left them behind.

5 teams had SOS ranked among the 100 worst.  3 made the NCAA.

The RULE in the Big East is that a tough non-conference schedule reduces your chance for an NCAA bid.  

Marquette84


Interesting comparision:

DePaul/Wake Forest Attendance:  8521
DePaul/Eastern Illinois Attendance:  8798

Go back and re-read those numbers.  I checked twice.  At DePaul, EIU and WFU.  As far as I can tell, they're absolutely correct.

According to the attendance figures released by DePaul, they sold 277 more tickets for the Eastern Illinois game than for Wake Forest!!!

How can that possibly be?  Don't those fans realize they're being shafted by being FORCED to pay for EIU when they really want to see Wake Forest? 

And making matters even more interesting, EIU came on the heels of back-to-back losses to Northwestern and Bradley.  Wake Forest came after the upset win over Kansas.

That win over Kansas generated so much excitement and enthusiasm that 277 fewer rans ran out to buy tickets to see a "great" team like Wake Forest.

Yes, I'll admit that Kansas drew better.  However, at this point I have to believe its more because of the large number of KU alums in the Chicago area coupled with two Chicago-area products on their roster, as opposed to DePaul fans buying tickets to see a "great" opponent as opposed to one like, say, EIU.



ChicosBailBonds

Excellent points Marquette84...on both counts.

At the end of the day people want to see winning programs and teams usually win not only on talent but on their belief they can win.  Scheduling overly tough teams usually spells disaster.  Scheduling too soft of teams has shown many times over not to have the opposite effect.

herboturbo

I was just wondering, of all the people complaining about the schedule on here how many are actually season ticket holders?
If you can't be an athlete, be an athletic supporter.

spiral97

Quote from: Marquette84 on December 13, 2006, 11:42:34 PM
According to the attendance figures released by DePaul, they sold 277 more tickets for the Eastern Illinois game than for Wake Forest!!!

How can that possibly be?

this one is immediately obvious to me.. the same reason you discredit the kansas game attendence explains the EIU game attendence.. the fans of EIU came to the game as well - just like MU fans will significantly alter the attendence count when we play @ DePaul.  This isn't really a fair comparison.. to make your argument you need to compare games against teams both traveling from a significant distance away.

distance from DePaul's campus to Allstate Arena is approximately 18.2 miles (or 23 minutes).
distance from Eastern Illinois' campus to Allstate Arena is approximately 199.5 miles (or 3 hours 17 minutes).
distance from Wake Forest's campus to Allstate Arena is approximately 771 miles (or 11 hours 48 minutes).

in fact.. if I look up the kansas game attendence I see it is 16,922.  Do you really believe that the difference of roughly 8000 people is purely because of the number of KU alum living in chicago?!  You have a VERY hard sell there.

not saying that you can't prove your point.. you'll just have to do so by comparing apples to applies - which I have yet to see. ;)
Once a warrior always a warrior.. even if the feathers must now come with a beak.

Marquette84

QuoteDo you really believe that the difference of roughly 8000 people is purely because of the number of KU alum living in chicago?!  You have a VERY hard sell there.

I think its an easier sell than suggesting that there was a horde of EIU fans (2006 attenance average 1555) that drove up for the game. 

When you can't fill more than 25% of your own house, its hard to believe that you travel well.

If over 6000 KU fans can find their way to Las Vegas (1310 miles), I think its fair to say that 8000 is not unreasonable for Chicago.
http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/recap?gid=200611250210&prov=ap

But lets assume you're right--that DePaul fans really can differentiate between Kansas and Cupcakes, and showed up in mass to reward the school for scheduling a "great" opponent.

The point made earlier is that Wake Forest represented the type of "great" opponent that brings in the crowds.  That statement appears to be wrong.  Wake Forest, frankly, draws more like Chicago State and Eastern Illinois.   

And we can check back a year to see that this is not just a one-year trend.  Creighton, the type of team that some here seem to be drooling to schedule--drew 7902 at DePaul last season.  Florida International drew 8146.  And you don't have the "driving distance" argument on your side in this example.






WashDCWarrior

Quote from: Marquette84 on December 13, 2006, 11:42:34 PM

DePaul/Wake Forest Attendance:  8521
DePaul/Eastern Illinois Attendance:  8798


A couple other factors played a part in these numbers.  Primarily, WFU was played on a Wednesday, while EIU was on a Friday.  Also WFU was televised (albeit on ESPNU) so some fans may have decided to watch the game at a bar. (or at home, not sure if Chicagoland gets ESPNU)

Marquette84

QuotePrimarily, WFU was played on a Wednesday, while EIU was on a Friday.

So the EIU game had the disadvantage of being scheduled a) when there are far more entertainment options available to the "casual fan" and b) virtually every HS basketball player is involved in a game of their own.

That makes the EIU margin even more amazing.

WashDCWarrior

   DATE            OPPONENT                       ATTEND
   ------------    --------------------          ------
   11/10/06 Fr       HILLSDALE COLL.                12464
   11/13/06 Mo       IDAHO STATE                    12334
   11/14/06 Tu       DETROIT                           12339
   11/18/06 Sa       EASTERN MICHIGAN            12978
   12/01/06 Fr       NORTHWESTERN STATE       13019
   12/02/06 Sa       NORTH DAKOTA STATE        15348
   12/05/06 Tu      DELAWARE STATE               13056
   12/09/06 Sa       11/12 WISCONSIN              19020

Weekend (Fr, Sa, Su) games averaged 14566 (13452 w/o UW) and weekday games averaged 12576.  I know there's more to do in Chicago than Milwaukee, but if someone could find attendance stats for DePaul, I'm guessing they'd have a similar ratio.  More people attend weekend games.

WashDCWarrior

DATE OPPONENT W/L SCORE ATTEND
Sa 11-19-05 BRADLEY L 60-75 8797
Sa 11-26-05 NORTHWESTERN W 59-49 9039
We 11-30-05 CREIGHTON W 72-57 7902
Sa 12-3-05 BUCKNELL L 52-57 7746
Tu 12-6-05 UAB W 70-66 7747
Sa 12-31-05 FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL W 72-60 8146
Sa 1-7-06 NOTRE DAME W 73-67 15675
Su 1-15-06 RUTGERS LOT 68-78 8122
Tu 1-17-06 MARQUETTE L 79-82 12322
Tu 1-31-06 GEORGETOWN L 44-64 9258
Tu 2-7-06 PROVIDENCE L 60-61 7883
Sa 2-11-06 VILLANOVA L 51-61 14906
Sa 2-25-06 SETON HALL W 67-64 9846
Th 3-2-06 SYRACUSE W 108-69 11171


Ok, I found it.  Last year DePaul averaged 10285 on weekends (Fr, Sa, Su) and 9381 on weekdays.

augoman

Quote from: WashDCWarrior on December 14, 2006, 11:04:20 AM
   Weekend (Fr, Sa, Su) games averaged 14566 (13452 w/o UW) and weekday games averaged 12576. 

What you're forgetting here is that MU states 'paid' attendance..., not actual attendance.  The large season ticket holder base creates a false 'crowd'.  I was at all those games and guarantee you that there were not 8,000 people in the crowd at some of them.

WashDCWarrior

Quote from: augoman on December 14, 2006, 11:25:20 AM
Quote from: WashDCWarrior on December 14, 2006, 11:04:20 AM
   Weekend (Fr, Sa, Su) games averaged 14566 (13452 w/o UW) and weekday games averaged 12576. 

What you're forgetting here is that MU states 'paid' attendance..., not actual attendance.  The large season ticket holder base creates a false 'crowd'.  I was at all those games and guarantee you that there were not 8,000 people in the crowd at some of them.

Don't have stats on it, but I would be willing to bet the actual attendance is closer to paid attendance on weekends vs. weekdays.