Big Man's Game

[4everwarriors]

First of all let me say I was overall very impressed with Marquette's tournament play this season. Not since 2003 have we seen the "fire in their bellies" that has been on display over the past 1 1/2 weeks. Credit, therefore, has to go to the coaching staff and yes, to Tom Crean for a job well done. Maybe there is hope.

That said, and I have hammered this valid point home ad nauseum, it is a big man's game, pure and simple. See Stanford if doubt still remains. Therefore, until legitimate Big East quality studs are recruited, or a project developes beyond expectation, it is unrealistic to expect to advance in March past the present level. Hopefully, Otule is the first step toward that end.

[ChicosBailBonds]

First of all let me say I was overall very impressed with Marquette's tournament play this season. Not since 2003 have we seen the "fire in their bellies" that has been on display over the past 1 1/2 weeks. Credit, therefore, has to go to the coaching staff and yes, to Tom Crean for a job well done. Maybe there is hope.

That said, and I have hammered this valid point home ad nauseum, it is a big man's game, pure and simple. See Stanford if doubt still remains. Therefore, until legitimate Big East quality studs are recruited, or a project developes beyond expectation, it is unrealistic to expect to advance in March past the present level. Hopefully, Otule is the first step toward that end.

Hilarious...it's "unrealistic to expect to advance" because a guy hits a shot in overtime with 1.3 seconds left?


OK

[Markusquette]

Haha, good one Chicos.  I definitely hope that Otule is going to be an asset.

[NavinRJohnson]

Hard to disagree, but the fact is, you gotta have both. It is not a guard's game or a big man's game, it is a balanced teams game. As much as the Lopezes grabbed control of the game, they never get the chance if Stanford's guards don't make some huge 3's. Their strngth beat our strength tonight, but they are likely to lose soon, just as we probably would have. The fact that their guards/wings aren't all that good, is the reason they won't go much farther. You look around at the title contenders, and without exception, you will see big men, and wings/guards.

[4everwarriors]

Weren't you watching the other 44 minutes and 58.7 seconds?

[muchalktalk]

don't help your argument.  They both had "studs" in the middle and both got crushed.  We really didn't need a stud tonight, and we almost beat a 3-seed in their backyard.  All we really needed was Burke to be two inches taller.

[chapman]

As much as the Lopezes grabbed control of the game, they never get the chance if Stanford's guards don't make some huge 3's.

Not to mention their point guard Mitch Johnson getting 16 assists and only having one turnover.  Sure the assists come when you feed it inside all day, but when he can get the ball to a scorer 16 times, and get it back to make a 3-pointer three more times you can't say he played a bad game or that we stopped him from having an outstanding game.  I would think Crean's favorite "deflections" stat was way down this game.

[MUfan12]

That said, and I have hammered this valid point home ad nauseum, it is a big man's game, pure and simple. See Stanford if doubt still remains. Therefore, until legitimate Big East quality studs are recruited, or a project developes beyond expectation, it is unrealistic to expect to advance in March past the present level. Hopefully, Otule is the first step toward that end.

This is what is keeping me from jumping on the "next year" bandwagon. I would hate to pin hopes on a freshman. Next year, assuming James is in the fold, squarely rests on the improvement of Mbakwe and Burke. Fulce is more of a wing than an inside presence.

Maybe the sting of this loss is making me less optimistic right now, but inside we are losing an experienced senior and bringing in a raw freshman.

[NavinRJohnson]

That said, and I have hammered this valid point home ad nauseum, it is a big man's game, pure and simple. See Stanford if doubt still remains. Therefore, until legitimate Big East quality studs are recruited, or a project developes beyond expectation, it is unrealistic to expect to advance in March past the present level. Hopefully, Otule is the first step toward that end.

This is what is keeping me from jumping on the "next year" bandwagon. I would hate to pin hopes on a freshman. Next year, assuming James is in the fold, squarely rests on the improvement of Mbakwe and Burke. Fulce is more of a wing than an inside presence.

Maybe the sting of this loss is making me less optimistic right now, but inside we are losing an experienced senior and bringing in a raw freshman.

This is why the decision to strip the red shirt off Mbakwe was a good one in my opionion. He comes out of the gate far more ready to play next season (when they are really going to need him) than he otherwise would have as a result of the experience of playing this year.

[bma725]

That said, and I have hammered this valid point home ad nauseum, it is a big man's game, pure and simple. See Stanford if doubt still remains. Therefore, until legitimate Big East quality studs are recruited, or a project developes beyond expectation, it is unrealistic to expect to advance in March past the present level. Hopefully, Otule is the first step toward that end.

This is what is keeping me from jumping on the "next year" bandwagon. I would hate to pin hopes on a freshman. Next year, assuming James is in the fold, squarely rests on the improvement of Mbakwe and Burke. Fulce is more of a wing than an inside presence.

Maybe the sting of this loss is making me less optimistic right now, but inside we are losing an experienced senior and bringing in a raw freshman.

This is why the decision to strip the red shirt off Mbakwe was a good one in my opionion. He comes out of the gate far more ready to play next season (when they are really going to need him) than he otherwise would have as a result of the experience of playing this year.

He may be ready to play, but even at full strength I don't think he helps much against the Lopez brothers or others of similar size.  He's only 6'7, he isn't a 5, he's a 4.  He's just too small to have much impact defensively against the really big and really strong post players.  Otule will need to come in and contribute right away......either that or Pat Hazel has to grow about 4 inches over the summer.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

That said, and I have hammered this valid point home ad nauseum, it is a big man's game, pure and simple. See Stanford if doubt still remains. Therefore, until legitimate Big East quality studs are recruited, or a project developes beyond expectation, it is unrealistic to expect to advance in March past the present level. Hopefully, Otule is the first step toward that end.

I would tend to agree but it doesn't seem to matter as much when you don't adjust the defense against the same play on the same wing that takes place 15-20 times during the game.

[NavinRJohnson]

That said, and I have hammered this valid point home ad nauseum, it is a big man's game, pure and simple. See Stanford if doubt still remains. Therefore, until legitimate Big East quality studs are recruited, or a project developes beyond expectation, it is unrealistic to expect to advance in March past the present level. Hopefully, Otule is the first step toward that end.

This is what is keeping me from jumping on the "next year" bandwagon. I would hate to pin hopes on a freshman. Next year, assuming James is in the fold, squarely rests on the improvement of Mbakwe and Burke. Fulce is more of a wing than an inside presence.

Maybe the sting of this loss is making me less optimistic right now, but inside we are losing an experienced senior and bringing in a raw freshman.

This is why the decision to strip the red shirt off Mbakwe was a good one in my opionion. He comes out of the gate far more ready to play next season (when they are really going to need him) than he otherwise would have as a result of the experience of playing this year.

He may be ready to play, but even at full strength I don't think he helps much against the Lopez brothers or others of similar size.  He's only 6'7, he isn't a 5, he's a 4.  He's just too small to have much impact defensively against the really big and really strong post players.  Otule will need to come in and contribute right away......either that or Pat Hazel has to grow about 4 inches over the summer.

Others of similar size??? There are no others of similar size (on the same team). Also, I dosagree. If he helps prevent even one basket, MU wins.

[IlikecreansoIcantposthere]

Weren't you watching the other 44 minutes and 58.7 seconds?

Yes, I watched the entire game and if that last shot rims out then its "guards beat bigs" and not the other way around.  If they would have beaten us soundly then you could spead your venom everywhere, but a ONE POINT LOSS IN OVERTIME proves nothing.   

[bma725]

That said, and I have hammered this valid point home ad nauseum, it is a big man's game, pure and simple. See Stanford if doubt still remains. Therefore, until legitimate Big East quality studs are recruited, or a project developes beyond expectation, it is unrealistic to expect to advance in March past the present level. Hopefully, Otule is the first step toward that end.

This is what is keeping me from jumping on the "next year" bandwagon. I would hate to pin hopes on a freshman. Next year, assuming James is in the fold, squarely rests on the improvement of Mbakwe and Burke. Fulce is more of a wing than an inside presence.

Maybe the sting of this loss is making me less optimistic right now, but inside we are losing an experienced senior and bringing in a raw freshman.

This is why the decision to strip the red shirt off Mbakwe was a good one in my opionion. He comes out of the gate far more ready to play next season (when they are really going to need him) than he otherwise would have as a result of the experience of playing this year.

He may be ready to play, but even at full strength I don't think he helps much against the Lopez brothers or others of similar size.  He's only 6'7, he isn't a 5, he's a 4.  He's just too small to have much impact defensively against the really big and really strong post players.  Otule will need to come in and contribute right away......either that or Pat Hazel has to grow about 4 inches over the summer.

Others of similar size??? There are no others of similar size (on the same team). Also, I dosagree. If he helps prevent even one basket, MU wins.

I'm talking about all the different centers that are similarly built to the Lopez brothers that he would have to face.  MU's biggest problem this year was that the "bigs" just aren't big enough.  Even at full strength, he doesn't change that.  He's tiny compared to guys like Hibbert, Thabeet, Padgett etc.  Just look at the rest of the conference.  There's a ton of legit big guys out there or coming in for next year and MU will only one player over 6'8 next year.  Mbakwe has a ton of talent, but he's only 6'7 and 240.  He's not strong enough or tall enough to defend against a true center.  Just like Burke and Barro he would have been too small against the Lopez brothers today.

[LastWarrior]

Hopefully, Otule is the first step toward that end.

O'Tule will definitely help by adding beef to the front line but let's not forget that we'll also have another year of development from 6'8" Burke, 6'8" Mbakwe, 6'7" Fulce, & 6'6" Hayward.  I think we'll be better next year on the front line than we were this year.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Weren't you watching the other 44 minutes and 58.7 seconds?

I was, and if the guy doesn't make a circus shot, your post is out the door.   If it was easy to go get stud bigs, then everyone would have them.  Fact is, very few schools have them and there is a reason, they don't exist in quantities.

When is the last stud big we had....which DECADE?

[MDMU04]

That said, and I have hammered this valid point home ad nauseum, it is a big man's game, pure and simple. See Stanford if doubt still remains. Therefore, until legitimate Big East quality studs are recruited, or a project developes beyond expectation, it is unrealistic to expect to advance in March past the present level. Hopefully, Otule is the first step toward that end.

This is what is keeping me from jumping on the "next year" bandwagon. I would hate to pin hopes on a freshman. Next year, assuming James is in the fold, squarely rests on the improvement of Mbakwe and Burke. Fulce is more of a wing than an inside presence.

Maybe the sting of this loss is making me less optimistic right now, but inside we are losing an experienced senior and bringing in a raw freshman.

This is why the decision to strip the red shirt off Mbakwe was a good one in my opionion. He comes out of the gate far more ready to play next season (when they are really going to need him) than he otherwise would have as a result of the experience of playing this year.

He may be ready to play, but even at full strength I don't think he helps much against the Lopez brothers or others of similar size.  He's only 6'7, he isn't a 5, he's a 4.  He's just too small to have much impact defensively against the really big and really strong post players.  Otule will need to come in and contribute right away......either that or Pat Hazel has to grow about 4 inches over the summer.

How many other teams have two 7 footers like the Lopez brothers?  Burke did a great job guarding Hibbert at the BC and played the game of his career (thus far) against UW at the Kohl Center.  You can't base your recruiting philosophy on the fact that a team out in the Pac-10 or wherever has 2 freaks of nature that we might eventually have to face.

There are certain teams that have players that you can prepare for.  There are teams that have players that are going to beat you regardless of what you do.  The Lopez brothers are one of those cases.  There was no answer to be had for those two monsters tonight.  Would it be nice to have a 7 footer to come out and be the panacea for stopping any big that any team could throw at you?  Hell yes it would!  But those are probably the hardest players to find.  And you know what?  Those guys that are out there and fit that bill?  They wind up at Connecticut.  Or Georgetown.  Or UCLA.  Or North Carolina.  Or anywhere Bob Huggins happens to be coaching.

I also don't necessarily agree with the logic that if Marquette had a guy that was taller it would make them any more effective than what we already have.  There is a huge difference between tall and good, and tall and bad.  And remember what I just said about the guys that are tall and good and where they usually wind up.  If Burke was a few inches taller, would that somehow magically make him better?  Mike Kinsella was 7 feet tall and his most memorable game with MU came when tossed in a few 3 balls in a half against Pitt...not stopping Aaron Gray, Hibbert, or Thabeet in the paint.

The guy that we needed guarding whichever effeminately-named Lopez took that final shot was on the bench with 5 fouls.  He had one emphatic block of a shot during the game and for all any of us knows, he could have done it again.

If MU was to have won the game tonight, they would have had to do it as they did in a majority of their wins this season.  Creating more easy offense via turnovers and running the ball into the frontcourt before Lurch I and Lurch II could haul their 14 feet of flopping, crybaby ass back there to play defense.  They gave away too many possesions shooting ill advised 3 pointers in the beginning of the game while Brook and Robin were scoring almost every time that they threw the ball towards the basket.



On a completely unrelated and totally grade-school level insult side note...Brook and Robin???  Are you f-ing serious with those names??  I know things are a little "different" out there in California, but come on.  I guess the names Savannah and Meadow already taken.  Sheesh.

[4everwarriors]

To say they don't exist in quantity is different than to say MU can't get them. Fact remains those players are out there and no rational explanation can be offered as to why you don't see them in a Warrior uniform. For those questioning their value, check out the FF, Elite 8, or even Sweet 16 and see how many of those teams lack a significant inside presence or putting it another way, are guard oriented.

McIlvaine played in the 90's. Haven't been any since which coincides with Crean's tenure and recruiting.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

To say they don't exist in quantity is different than to say MU can't get them. Fact remains those players are out there and no rational explanation can be offered as to why you don't see them in a Warrior uniform. For those questioning their value, check out the FF, Elite 8, or even Sweet 16 and see how many of those teams lack a significant inside presence or putting it another way, are guard oriented.

McIlvaine played in the 90's. Haven't been any since which coincides with Crean's tenure and recruiting.

I think I've said this already about 1000 times... but if you look at any of the elite 8 or final four teams, I bet they have good guards AND good big men...

WHY?

Because it takes quality players at every position to advance that far.

To simply imply something about how MU didn't advance because they didn't have a big man is silly.

MU needs quality players at all positions to advance. That's the correct conclusion.

It's not about big vs guard. It's about overall talent (at all positions), coaching and matchups.

[CTWarrior]

I think I've said this already about 1000 times... but if you look at any of the elite 8 or final four teams, I bet they have good guards AND good big men...

WHY?

Because it takes quality players at every position to advance that far.

To simply imply something about how MU didn't advance because they didn't have a big man is silly.

MU needs quality players at all positions to advance. That's the correct conclusion.

It's not about big vs guard. It's about overall talent (at all positions), coaching and matchups.

I'm not sure I understand your argument.  I think we all agree that you need a good balance of good big men and good guards/wings to be ultimately successful.  We don't have that.  We have quality guards/wings in abundance.  A big-time interior player would have given us a huge leg up in matching up with more teams.  That was the biggest deficiency on the team.  Our 4/5 positions were outscored by 30 points in a one point overtime loss.  I think that implies that another quality big guy would have made a big difference in the outcome of last night's game (and the Georgetown game, etc.)

[wadesworld]

McIlvaine played in the 90's. Haven't been any since which coincides with Crean's tenure and recruiting.

Robert Jackson wasn't good?

[bilsu]

We could have used Chris Grimm yesturday. I think Crean has got to recruit a big white guy just for games like this. I do not want to have a Chris Grimm in the starting line up, but we need a tough nosed defensive player like he was when the other team has a good bigmen. Outside of that, it is a guards game. Stanford did not turn the ball over which has to do with guard play.

[ChicosBailBonds]

To say they don't exist in quantity is different than to say MU can't get them. Fact remains those players are out there and no rational explanation can be offered as to why you don't see them in a Warrior uniform. For those questioning their value, check out the FF, Elite 8, or even Sweet 16 and see how many of those teams lack a significant inside presence or putting it another way, are guard oriented.

McIlvaine played in the 90's. Haven't been any since which coincides with Crean's tenure and recruiting.

And Deane's and for the most part O'Neill, Majerus, etc.

O'Neill had MacIlvaine....do you think if MacIlvaine was around today he would go to MU or Wisconsin?  Back then, Wisconsin was horrible and now they get most of the bigs in the state. 

But since you brought up Mac, why didn't you list Jackson, Merritt, etc?

By the way, Villanova and their guard oriented team just got into the Sweet 16.  We were 1.3 seconds away from doing the same thing.  I want bigs just like you, so does Tom Crean.

I think Tom should go to Indiana where he just has to say "I'm the IU coach" and he can land whatever big he wants and that would also make you and many others at MU happy so we can just get a coach in here that lands bigs regularly like we have at will the last 30 years.   

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I think I've said this already about 1000 times... but if you look at any of the elite 8 or final four teams, I bet they have good guards AND good big men...

WHY?

Because it takes quality players at every position to advance that far.

To simply imply something about how MU didn't advance because they didn't have a big man is silly.

MU needs quality players at all positions to advance. That's the correct conclusion.

It's not about big vs guard. It's about overall talent (at all positions), coaching and matchups.

I'm not sure I understand your argument.  I think we all agree that you need a good balance of good big men and good guards/wings to be ultimately successful.  We don't have that.  We have quality guards/wings in abundance.  A big-time interior player would have given us a huge leg up in matching up with more teams.  That was the biggest deficiency on the team.  Our 4/5 positions were outscored by 30 points in a one point overtime loss.  I think that implies that another quality big guy would have made a big difference in the outcome of last night's game (and the Georgetown game, etc.)

Well, I guess I'm just trying to illustrate why the "big man's game" vs a "guards game" argument just isn't accurate.

The really good teams aren't necessarily big man dominated as people love to imply... they have good players at every position... that's why they are good teams (seem simplistic, I know).