NY Times: Colleges Know How Much You're willing to pay. Here's How.

[muwarrior69]

Thanks for adding that perspective.

My point was it's dopey to romanticize a long-ago era that was far from great.

I never "ramanticized" the 60s; just pointed out that Marquette was affordable for working class students and parents. I was drafted my junior year and would have had to report for service at the end of my senior year. Since I am legally blind in my right eye I was granted a medical deferment. I don't have to tell you how sad it was to see the obits in the Marquette Tribune every week of MU grads. I don't have to tell you that I experienced racial discrimination firsthand when my fellow black choristers were denied a hotel room in of all places in southern Illinios. We all slept on the bus that night. You are right the 60s were not completely great.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I never "ramanticized" the 60s; just pointed out that Marquette was affordable for working class students and parents. I was drafted my junior year and would have had to report for service at the end of my senior year. Since I am legally blind in my right eye I was granted a medical deferment. I don't have to tell you how sad it was to see the obits in the Marquette Tribune every week of MU grads. I don't have to tell you that I experienced racial discrimination firsthand when my fellow black choristers were denied a hotel room in of all places in southern Illinios. We all slept on the bus that night. You are right the 60s were not completely great.

I wonder what is the true demographics.  If MU has as many "first generation" grads as they advertise/focus on - then it must be accessible.  Someone has to pay the bill for that.

I can say when I went to MU in the 90s it wasn't very blue collar. 

[The Sultan]

20% of Marquette students are Pell eligible, which means they have a low enough income or assets to qualify for federal financial aid grants. That is about the same as UW-Madison's - the UW System's overall figure is about 25%.

So maybe let's pump the brakes on Marquette not being accessible or not affordable for "working class students."

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

*Smaller class sizes almost always taught by professors
*Likely more personalized attention from advisors, academic support, etc.
*Religious-based mission of the school.

And here's the thing, if people don't want to pay that price, they don't have to! There are other alternatives available. But if the value of of a community college education, with a transfer to a public to round it out were the same, then the cost would be the same.

But Marquette is doing fine right now. People are willing to pay more to attend the school.

Sultan,
This pretty spot after having daughter #1 attend Xavier and daughter #2 graduating the university of Vermont this month.  Some of the exact comments my wife and I noted in addition to a few others.

[muwarrior69]

*Smaller class sizes almost always taught by professors
*Likely more personalized attention from advisors, academic support, etc.
*Religious-based mission of the school.

And here's the thing, if people don't want to pay that price, they don't have to! There are other alternatives available. But if the value of of a community college education, with a transfer to a public to round it out were the same, then the cost would be the same.

But Marquette is doing fine right now. People are willing to pay more to attend the school.

Please don't underestimate the value of a community college. Many community college "professors" are part time teachers and have jobs in the real world but also love to teach. They are a great networking source, and my daughter started her first job at the same company of one her community college teachers who recommended her.

[The Sultan]

Please don't underestimate the value of a community college. Many community college "professors" are part time teachers and have jobs in the real world but also love to teach. They are a great networking source, and my daughter started her first job at the same company of one her community college teachers who recommended her.

I'm not discounting anything. If people want to go to community college, that's great! I have child that took that route and it worked great for him.

My point is that society values a Marquette education more, for whatever reason, which is why they charge more for it. Simple suppy and demand.

[Billy Hoyle]

You can't actually believe that a Research 1 university has more employees than students.

Check your math.  MSU has an enrollment of 52 thousand.  By your math, there are 200k administrators and 570k instructors.

was trying to convey 11 students per faculty member, and 4 students per administrator. Typed it wrong. This is typical among the top 50 public schools. Also, at MSU, over 4000 administrators make at least a six figure salary. There's your bloat.

1 administrator for every 4 students.

Check your math.  MSU has an enrollment of 52 thousand.  By your math, there are 200k administrators and 570k instructors.

[The Sultan]

There is undoubtedly more "administrators" than there used to be in higher education. Some are because higher education does things that they didn't used to do (information technology), because they have added positions that supposedly pay for themselves over time (advancement, admissions), because they are getting smarter about student retention (academic support, counselling) and because they have simply added without subtracting.

Which of these are essential, important or frivolous is up to the person you are talking to.

[MU82]

I never "ramanticized" the 60s; just pointed out that Marquette was affordable for working class students and parents. I was drafted my junior year and would have had to report for service at the end of my senior year. Since I am legally blind in my right eye I was granted a medical deferment. I don't have to tell you how sad it was to see the obits in the Marquette Tribune every week of MU grads. I don't have to tell you that I experienced racial discrimination firsthand when my fellow black choristers were denied a hotel room in of all places in southern Illinios. We all slept on the bus that night. You are right the 60s were not completely great.

Thanks for the response. Two of my brothers went to college roughly when you did. They have told me some incredible stories about what it was like going to school in the late '60s and early '70s, with so much political and racial tension. Though I attended college only about a decade later, it seems like things were so different.

As for affordability, there is a lot of sticker shock, especially when one looks at the retail rate. It's easy to get nauseous seeing figures like $70K or $100K a year. But as others have noted, there also is a significant amount of discounting taking place, and inflation makes it difficult to compare things to how they were 6 decades ago.

Having said all that, I don't doubt that Marquette is less affordable for working-class families. Thankfully, as others have pointed out, there are lots of alternatives for families of all income ranges.

[muwarrior69]

I wonder what is the true demographics.  If MU has as many "first generation" grads as they advertise/focus on - then it must be accessible.  Someone has to pay the bill for that.

I can say when I went to MU in the 90s it wasn't very blue collar. 

When I attended it was mostly blue collar. I had classmates who parents worked at Miller and Alice Chalmers. One classmate from Chicago his dad worked in the steel mills in Gary, and another his family owned a dairy farm. Three of my choirmates were siblings and of course the two younger siblings paid half tuition and R&B; their dad was a lawyer and mom a teacher. There were also many legacy students whose parents also attended Marquette. Many of my classmates were ROTC or NROTC which covered their tuition costs. Most served in Vietnam, but thankfully all came home.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

was trying to convey 11 students per faculty member, and 4 students per administrator. Typed it wrong. This is typical among the top 50 public schools. Also, at MSU, over 4000 administrators make at least a six figure salary. There's your bloat.

1 administrator for every 4 students.

Can you provide your source? Because Michigan States website says they have a 16:1 faculty/student ratio and around 6300 non academic employees. That's about 8:1 not 4:1. I also doubt that 64% of those make 6 figures or more. That number includes things like parking enforcement, administrative assistants, hall directors, rec sports employees, handymen, etc.

[muwarrior69]

Your analysis is incorrect and inaccurate.

https://www.cato.org/blog/federal-student-loans-rising-tuition-costs-insider-speaks

I am sure you will disagree with this report as well. I am sure there are other factors driving up tuition, but the student loan system is a big one.

[The Sultan]

https://www.cato.org/blog/federal-student-loans-rising-tuition-costs-insider-speaks

I am sure you will disagree with this report as well. I am sure there are other factors driving up tuition, but the student loan system is a big one.

Gosh a libertarian think tank doesn't like federal student loans????

[muwarrior69]

Gosh a libertarian think tank doesn't like federal student loans????

Where are they wrong?

[The Sultan]

Where are they wrong?

I have no idea, and neither do they, if they are "wrong" or not. Have mortgages made houses more expensive? Maybe. Have they made it easier for people to own a home? Undoubtedly.

[dgies9156]

A couple of general comments:

1) Marquette's affordability problem isn't at the low or high end. It's with middle class parents who don't have brilliant students nor the capability to pay the "rack rate." I suspect many of these students come from Marquette loyal families because financial aid is minimal, debt would be outrageous and their children do qualify for high-quality secular schools.

2) My wife worked her way through Marquette in the 1970s, which became especially hard after her National Direct Student Loan was yanked after Year 1. She did it by cobbling together a couple of part time jobs, summer work and near deprivation (as well as borrowing my books, since I was a year ahead of her). No way that could be done today. Her parents were in their late 60s and 70s when she was a student and were not material means of support. Maybe there would be money today, maybe not. But she would have been saddled with enormous debt that would have hamstrung us into our 40s.

3) It ain't just Marquette that's the problem. It's all colleges. We sent both of our children to an Illinois public college because it was right for them. The cost, all-in, for four years was about $250,000.

4) And, to add fuel to the fire, my high school, a Catholic High in Nashville, is now $26,000 for annual tuition. You think Tennessee's Voucher system has something to do with that? I do! That's one very small reason why I believe external loans and grants are fueling the massive increases (above inflation) in college costs.

5) Marquette was still a great deal for wife and I. We're retired but Marquette gave us the tools to be successful in our careers and in our lives.

[muwarrior69]

A couple of general comments:

1) Marquette's affordability problem isn't at the low or high end. It's with middle class parents who don't have brilliant students nor the capability to pay the "rack rate." I suspect many of these students come from Marquette loyal families because financial aid is minimal, debt would be outrageous and their children do qualify for high-quality secular schools.

2) My wife worked her way through Marquette in the 1970s, which became especially hard after her National Direct Student Loan was yanked after Year 1. She did it by cobbling together a couple of part time jobs, summer work and near deprivation (as well as borrowing my books, since I was a year ahead of her). No way that could be done today. Her parents were in their late 60s and 70s when she was a student and were not material means of support. Maybe there would be money today, maybe not. But she would have been saddled with enormous debt that would have hamstrung us into our 40s.

3) It ain't just Marquette that's the problem. It's all colleges. We sent both of our children to an Illinois public college because it was right for them. The cost, all-in, for four years was about $250,000.

4) And, to add fuel to the fire, my high school, a Catholic High in Nashville, is now $26,000 for annual tuition. You think Tennessee's Voucher system has something to do with that? I do! That's one very small reason why I believe external loans and grants are fueling the massive increases (above inflation) in college costs.

5) Marquette was still a great deal for wife and I. We're retired but Marquette gave us the tools to be successful in our careers and in our lives.

Correct even state schools are expensive and if the state school will accept all your community college credits at half the cost you can still get a degree from your prestigious state school at a fraction of the cost of attending that school for all 4 years.

My daughter did not know what to major in after graduating HS. So she went to the community college for 2 years for 6k and decided on an accounting degree from Rutgers which cost us 32K for those 2 years. As it turned she hated her accounting jobs and entered an RN program at our local hospital and loves being a nurse.

[forgetful]

https://www.cato.org/blog/federal-student-loans-rising-tuition-costs-insider-speaks

I am sure you will disagree with this report as well. I am sure there are other factors driving up tuition, but the student loan system is a big one.

It basically is a pointless article. The whole thing is like 4 paragraphs long, doesn't present any data, nor analyze any data, just spouts useless dribble.

Here is a piece of data. The average total student loan debt per graduate in 2024 was ~$38k, or $9500 per year. They could make that over the summer.

The problem is that in too many cases, the largest loans are by those that can least afford it, and you have the predatory, for-profit scam universities the take advantage of people trying to improve their lives. Fortunately, the Department of Education, and related organizations went after those types of fraudsters.

[muwarrior69]

It basically is a pointless article. The whole thing is like 4 paragraphs long, doesn't present any data, nor analyze any data, just spouts useless dribble.

Here is a piece of data. The average total student loan debt per graduate in 2024 was ~$38k, or $9500 per year. They could make that over the summer.

The problem is that in too many cases, the largest loans are by those that can least afford it, and you have the predatory, for-profit scam universities the take advantage of people trying to improve their lives. Fortunately, the Department of Education, and related organizations went after those types of fraudsters.

I have been out of the work force for some time and did not realize how well paid "summer jobs" have become. I learned something, thanks.

https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/high-paying-summer-jobs

[The Sultan]

I have been out of the work force for some time and did not realize how well paid "summer jobs" have become. I learned something, thanks.

https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/high-paying-summer-jobs

A lot of those jobs have inflated wage figures, are something a college student wouldn't be qualified for, or would be nearly impossible to string together full time hours.

Who's hiring a college student to be a "personal assistant?" Or a "freelance writer?" How many hours a week can a student be a "dog walker?"

[forgetful]

A lot of those jobs have inflated wage figures, are something a college student wouldn't be qualified for, or would be nearly impossible to string together full time hours.

Who's hiring a college student to be a "personal assistant?" Or a "freelance writer?" How many hours a week can a student be a "dog walker?"

Yes, those are, although I do know a decent number of students actually working as personal assistants, and students doing dog walking making more than $1k per week, but yes it is not common.

That said, a lot of our students doing internships in summer make $20-40 an hour and easily take down $3k per month or more.

Obviously it is field specific, with some areas commanding better pay, but there are a lot of options out there for people to make serious money over the summer. What leads to higher indebtedness for a lot of students are two other factors that limit their employment opportunities.

1. The "resume building" culture, where we expect a ton of boxes to be checked, leading students to feel like they have to do a billion hours of volunteer work and other items, instead of getting a job.

2. The "double/triple major" culture, where there has been a culture created that in order to stand out you need to do everything, instead of just doing what you do very well.

Crazy thing is at the hiring level, the above are usually pointless, but it has been created by the college admissions culture and then becomes ingrained in their minds since they were quite young.

[The Sultan]

Yes, those are, although I do know a decent number of students actually working as personal assistants, and students doing dog walking making more than $1k per week, but yes it is not common.

That said, a lot of our students doing internships in summer make $20-40 an hour and easily take down $3k per month or more.

Obviously it is field specific, with some areas commanding better pay, but there are a lot of options out there for people to make serious money over the summer. What leads to higher indebtedness for a lot of students are two other factors that limit their employment opportunities.

1. The "resume building" culture, where we expect a ton of boxes to be checked, leading students to feel like they have to do a billion hours of volunteer work and other items, instead of getting a job.

2. The "double/triple major" culture, where there has been a culture created that in order to stand out you need to do everything, instead of just doing what you do very well.

Crazy thing is at the hiring level, the above are usually pointless, but it has been created by the college admissions culture and then becomes ingrained in their minds since they were quite young.

You aren't getting many disagreements from me on any of this. Especially since a lot of the "resume building" becomes completely useless after you get your first "real" gig.

[WarriorFan]

Having been through this twice with one to go, I look at it from a different perspective:
a) coach your kids to not fall in love with any one school.  3 "equal" choices is better
b) affordability is as important as fit, and the cost needs to be understood by the whole family
c) Negotiate.  Some schools will, some schools won't.   But I'm not paying $50k/year for anything without trying to get it down 20-30%.  I think this article demonstrates that some schools no longer even control their pricing model.  We felt this when dealing with some, as well.
d) we looked hard at the cc route in Wisconsin.  It potentially works if you have one nearby but many lack the structure of a 4 year university.
e) make a plan, get it done.  Universities are encouraging kids to enroll with no major so they can get 5+ years from them.  Be aware of this trap in the selection process and avoid it at all costs - in terms of the way your kids are thinking and in terms of what the university is saying. 
I'm committed to getting my kids through a Bachelors degree without debt. I think it's the best gift I can give them as a parent.  Yes, one is at MU.