Way too early 25-26 discussion

[tower912]

Listen I like Royce........I also like Zaide.....I'm not sure why people need to get into these tiffs over two,young guys that most of us are excited about.

Because this is scoop. 

Kalkbrenner is not overrated.

[jfp61]

Listen I like Royce........I also like Zaide.....I'm not sure why people need to get into these tiffs over two,young guys that most of us are excited about.

As far as the plus minus......it certainly helps Royce that he is only coming in for Jop or Ben.....while Zaide is replacing Stevie, Chase or even at times Kam(when Chase moves to be the point).

Much easier to make a positive impact when you are playing the vast majority of your minutes with the 3 best players on the team.

Ps I really liked the toughness that Royce played with last night........he's going to be a good one.

Honestly because Royce is better than Oso was as a freshman and is deserving of all the praise in the world. And Zaide is a fine bench player who is getting inflated because he has good shooting splits on low usage.

[Nukem2]

Honestly because Royce is better than Oso was as a freshman and is deserving of all the praise in the world. And Zaide is a fine bench player who is getting inflated because he has good shooting splits on low usage.

Well, yeah. Oso had 6 points and 6 rebounds as a frosh. Royce already at 153 and 62.

[MuMark]

Oso hardly played as a freshman.......again.....you are reading too much into this.

I haven't read the whole thread.....if people are suggesting that Zaide is on his way to being a star I agree that's over the top and way premature........just like its a bit premature to compare Royce to Oso........

I understand your point about Royce......if I had to choose one stock to buy it would be his as well.....but it's too soon to make any grand predictions.........just let them play.

Ps I'd be fine with a Chase Ross trajectory for Zaide.

[Zog from Margo]

Oso hardly played as a freshman.......again.....you are reading too much into this.

I haven't read the whole thread.....if people are suggesting that Zaide is on his way to being a star I agree that's over the top and way premature........just like its a bit premature to compare Royce to Oso........

I understand your point about Royce......if I had to choose one stock to buy it would be his as well.....but it's too soon to make any grand predictions.........just let them play.

Ps I'd be fine with a Chase Ross trajectory for Zaide.

Nobody said Lowery was on his way to being a star. I agree that Parham has more upside on offense. Lowery draws, and likely will continue to draw for his career, tougher defensive assignments.

[tower912]

We are going to see plenty of both of them in 25-26.  I am looking forward to watching their growth.  I am rooting for them both to succeed, as more responsibility and opportunity will fall to each.   And their success is MU's success.

[The Sultan]

OBPM and DBPM are two stats that meassure your estimated +/- based on your box score when on the court. It assigns the results of the game based on the box score of a player.

So a player who takes a few shots but makes them all will have a high OBPM. And the same goes for defense. When you have steals, blocks, or defensive boards, and the team plays good defense it goes back and attributes it to your stats.

Matt Heldt, some years of Greg Elliot, and freshman year Chase Ross are three examples of players who had "good box scores" more than they did "good games". Low usage rates, made the shots they took.

HOWEVER. This is not +/-. Or how the team preforms when you are in the game. +/- is a literal +/- when a player is on the court.

So Zaide having great OBPM and DBPM, and having a season long +/- or +45. Lower than Parham's +138. And Normans +71.  Is another example of a Heldt and Elliot, type of player.

But +/- is a bad stat because it is highly dependent on who that player is playing with when he is on the floor. For instance Tre, being the first sub off the bench, is often playing with four starters. So the fact that his +/- is higher than Zaide's doesn't mean that Tre himself is more impactful.

To be clear, I am not saying that Zaide is more or less valuable than Royce. Frankly I think they are both showing great promise and look forward to seeing them grow together.

But anyone watching the game can see that Zaide is way more impactful than Matt Heldt was.

[Its DJOver]

I am using single game stats when I am talking about one game. Sorry

You are looking at incredibly cherry picked stats that are not relevant in a one game sample size. Extrapolating MU points when O'Malley is on the floor as points per minutes in the game (your stats to show that Zaide negatively affected our offense), we would have scored 120 if he had played the full 40.  Following your cherry picked stats he should be an All-American.

[jfp61]

Oso hardly played as a freshman.......again.....you are reading too much into this.

I haven't read the whole thread.....if people are suggesting that Zaide is on his way to being a star I agree that's over the top and way premature........just like its a bit premature to compare Royce to Oso........

I understand your point about Royce......if I had to choose one stock to buy it would be his as well.....but it's too soon to make any grand predictions.........just let them play.

Ps I'd be fine with a Chase Ross trajectory for Zaide.

one of these is premature. the other is accurate. IMO

[jfp61]

Zaide is way more impactful than Matt Heldt was.

In the last few games 100%. I am glad Zaide's game is picking up.

But if you really want to look at it, you would get rid of the word "way".

[The Sultan]

In the last few games 100%. I am glad Zaide's game is picking up.

But if you really want to look at it, you would get rid of the word "way".

No. I would not.

[bilsu]

Nobody said Lowery was on his way to being a star. I agree that Parham has more upside on offense. Lowery draws, and likely will continue to draw for his career, tougher defensive assignments.

What is your definition of a star? Is Ross a star? I could see Lowery as a junior being as good as Ross is as a junior, if he got the same minutes. Lowery's problem is there is significant competition at sf/sg, so I am not sure how much time he will get, especially if the freshmen are ready to play significant minutes.

[tower912]

Everybody transfers out.  8 randoms from the portal plus the freshman class.

[The Sultan]

What is your definition of a star? Is Ross a star? I could see Lowery as a junior being as good as Ross is as a junior, if he got the same minutes. Lowery's problem is there is significant competition at sf/sg, so I am not sure how much time he will get, especially if the freshmen are ready to play significant minutes.

Zaide at worst will be the first guard off the bench. It is incredibly doubtful that any freshman will pass him up in the rotation.

[tower912]

Zaide at worst will be the first guard off the bench. It is incredibly doubtful that any freshman will pass him up in the rotation.

Yup.

[Zog from Margo]

What is your definition of a star? Is Ross a star? I could see Lowery as a junior being as good as Ross is as a junior, if he got the same minutes. Lowery's problem is there is significant competition at sf/sg, so I am not sure how much time he will get, especially if the freshmen are ready to play significant minutes.

I've been a Lowery fan since last season. Like Ross, Lowery and Owens are different level athletes. I'll be surprised if Lowery doesn't start next year because he's already the best defender off the bench and a better defender than a couple starters. He's also a good shooter.  That said, there's no benefit to overhyping any player and I didn't see anyone overhyping Lowery, IMO. I'm a big Ross fan as well. As for who is a "star," I'm apparently more judicious in the use of platitudes.

[tower912]

I've been a Lowery fan since last season. Like Ross, Lowery and Owens are different level athletes. I'll be surprised if Lowery doesn't start next year because he's already the best defender off the bench and a better defender than a couple starters. He's also a good shooter.  That said, there's no benefit to overhyping any player and I didn't see anyone overhyping Lowery, IMO. I'm a big Ross fan as well. As for who is a "star," I'm apparently more judicious in the use of platitudes.

I am also a Lowery fan.  And an Owens fan.  And a Ross fan.  Unless one of them figures out how to run the point, there is no way they can all start.  Gold and Parham are going to be the bigs.
 I am looking forward to those three splitting time at the 2-3.  Maybe the occasional match up where they can all play while Royce sits.  But in all likelihood, it will be Ross playing 30 and DO and ZL splitting the other 50 at the 2-3.  I am not sure it matters who starts.

[Newsdreams]

Is John Dawson still available

Mr. Magic Dawson, address him properly.

[BCHoopster]

I am also a Lowery fan.  And an Owens fan.  And a Ross fan.  Unless one of them figures out how to run the point, there is no way they can all start.  Gold and Parham are going to be the bigs.
 I am looking forward to those three splitting time at the 2-3.  Maybe the occasional match up where they can all play while Royce sits.  But in all likelihood, it will be Ross playing 30 and DO and ZL splitting the other 50 at the 2-3.  I am not sure it matters who starts.

More like lots of good players but a true star, not sure they have one.  Ross is limited without a true jump shot,nor does Owens. Lowery at least has a pretty good looking shot, jump shot doubt it as well

[tower912]

What does that word salad mean? Other than you don't like MU players?

[JakeBarnes]

More like lots of good players but a true star, not sure they have one.  Ross is limited without a true jump shot,nor does Owens. Lowery at least has a pretty good looking shot, jump shot doubt it as well

Where is this "zaide and chase can't shoot" thing coming from? Both have great looking jumpers. Chase hits at 37%, Zaide even higher.

[BCHoopster]

Where is this "zaide and chase can't shoot" thing coming from? Both have great looking jumpers. Chase hits at 37%, Zaide even higher.

Would not call them I. Your face mid range jumpers, more like have to be wide open to get there shots off. More of a hop.

[JakeBarnes]

Would not call them I. Your face mid range jumpers, more like have to be wide open to get there shots off. More of a hop.

The system is designed to get open shots. Would you prefer they take worse and contested shots to prove they are "shooters?"

[pbiflyer]

https://x.com/CBKReport/status/1894772676461470049?t=68YBZJEPUhP1Sf-t3KmkDQ&s=19

I'm terrified for next year. We may be elite and not sure how we scoopers will handle it.

Easy:
Yeah, we made a final four but didn't win it all.
Yeah, we won it all, but we lost a couple of games along the way.
Yeah we were undefeated, but we didn't cover the spread.
Yeah we covered every spread, but Ben didn't shoot 50% from 3...

[The Sultan]

Would not call them I. Your face mid range jumpers, more like have to be wide open to get there shots off. More of a hop.

For the one millionth time...this team doesn't take mid range jumpers.