D-Day's 80th

[Uncle Rico]

Don't think anyone would argue with you on this one.

Well, Muggsy does.  Unilaterally removing heads of state and other figures of state is exactly that.

The unintended consequences of such actions need to be factored in as well.  When we discuss Iraq and Afghanistan, simply removing the head of state doesn't solve the problem. 

I'll answer the Saddam question as well.  He was always a bad guy.  America has cozied up to bad guys for well over a century now.  Probably why we shouldn't be picking and choosing which bad guys to kill

[Pakuni]

Could you teach us about international law?

South Korea isn't better off than North Korea?
Didn't we support El Salvador and not Nicaragua?
Iraq and the world would be better off with Saddam Hussein?

What would you like to know about International Law?

1. North Korea exists as a result of American foreign policy.

2. We supported the Contras in Nicaragua. They were a right-wing terrorist group responsible for the kidnapping, torture and executions of hundreds if not thousands of civilians, including nuns.

3. Is it a binary choice? Was a war built upon false premises and that killed about 4,500 American soldiers, cost nearly $1 trillion, caused the deaths of some 200,000 civilians and led to the rise of ISIS the best and only way to rid the world of Saddam? Was ridding the world of Saddam worth the price (I'm guessing he'd have just left for a couple billion)? And was a boxed-in Saddam Hussein really such a threat?

[NCMUFan]

What would you like to know about International Law?

1. North Korea exists as a result of American foreign policy.

2. We supported the Contras in Nicaragua. They were a right-wing terrorist group responsible for the kidnapping, torture and executions of hundreds if not thousands of civilians, including nuns.

3. Is it a binary choice? Was a war built upon false premises and that killed about 4,500 American soldiers, cost nearly $1 trillion, caused the deaths of some 200,000 civilians and led to the rise of ISIS the best and only way to rid the world of Saddam? Was ridding the world of Saddam worth the price (I'm guessing he'd have just left for a couple billion)? And was a boxed-in Saddam Hussein really such a threat?

I have to agree, the fake weapons of mass destruction report was stupid.  The international community was there.  Why force the issue.

[MU82]

Please Tower, if that was the case, why isn't he in power now?  He was President, now he isn't.  Step back from the ledge.  Oops, might have provoked an MU82 tantrum.

Facts = tantrum.

[Pakuni]

So if we can't help then let 'em suffer (they do and will continue to) without us. Is that your solution? Total isolationism?
Why are we wasting time and money in Israel or Ukraine? All we'll do is make matters worse, right? If "nothing in our history  indicates we can solve these problems" why did we waste all that blood and treasure saving Europe? Probably only made things worse, the continent would have been better off with an efficient Germany running things, right?

Lenny comes swinging in with the hyperbole. Predictable.
Here's the reality, Lenny.
Our only substantial foreign policy successes of the last 100+ years have come through the building of international coalitions with common goals and shared leadership, not the kind of unilateral actions Muggsy proposes.
We didn't defeat Hitler on our own. We didn't win the Cold War on our own. We didn't win the first Gulf War on our own. We're not helping Ukraine fend off Russia on our own.
But we did fail in Vietnam when we tried to go it alone. We failed to secure Iraq when we tried to go it alone. We failed in Afghanistan when we tried to go it alone. We failed in Iran when we tried to overthrow the government on our own.

People like Muggsy thumb their noses at working with allies and adhering to international law. They suggest that America and America alone can fix the world. But those of us in the know understand that the path to success requires allies and coalitions.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

wanted a sightseeing tour.  I'm not a fan of despotic maniacal scumbags.  Especially when they can be stopped and eliminated.

Yeeeaaaahhhhhhhhh, about that...

[Lennys Tap]

There is a pretty wide gap between supporting our allies versus committing war crimes

What if the allies we're supporting are committing war crimes? The majority of the Scoop intelligentsia claims Israel is at the very least doing that, maybe much worse. And does anyone doubt for a minute that both Ukraine and Russia have engaged in what could be classified as war crimes? Has there ever been a war without war crimes committed by both sides?

[Goose]

Pakuni

Have you ever left the state you were born in? Your global view is awfully narrow and I find interesting on how confident you are in your opinions.

[Uncle Rico]

What if the allies we're supporting are committing war crimes? The majority of the Scoop intelligentsia claims Israel is at the very least doing that, maybe much worse. And does anyone doubt for a minute that both Ukraine and Russia have engaged in what could be classified as war crimes? Has there ever been a war without war crimes committed by both sides?

America has often supported war criminals and dictators.  It's part of why our founding fathers implored future generations not to get entangled in foreign affairs, to avoid such moral dilemmas.  We did pretty good for about a century and it's been all downhill since.

What is being proposed by Muggsy is, we abandon alliances and unilaterally commit war crimes and break international law.  If that's the America we choose to live in and become, it'll be the beginning of the end of America and a pretty sad day for our country.

[Hards Alumni]

Lenny comes swinging in with the hyperbole. Predictable.
Here's the reality, Lenny.
Our only substantial foreign policy successes of the last 100+ years have come through the building of international coalitions with common goals and shared leadership, not the kind of unilateral actions Muggsy proposes.
We didn't defeat Hitler on our own. We didn't win the Cold War on our own. We didn't win the first Gulf War on our own. We're not helping Ukraine fend off Russia on our own.
But we did fail in Vietnam when we tried to go it alone. We failed to secure Iraq when we tried to go it alone. We failed in Afghanistan when we tried to go it alone. We failed in Iran when we tried to overthrow the government on our own.

People like Muggsy thumb their noses at working with allies and adhering to international law. They suggest that America and America alone can fix the world. But those of us in the know understand that the path to success requires allies and coalitions.

Careful now.  You're going to get America's panties in a bunch.  Don't tell the masses that the Soviets already had the Germans on the run in the East when Operation Overlord was launched.

[Pakuni]

Pakuni

Have you ever left the state you were born in? Your global view is awfully narrow and I find interesting on how confident you are in your opinions.

Tell me what I got wrong.

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny comes swinging in with the hyperbole. Predictable.
Here's the reality, Lenny.
Our only substantial foreign policy successes of the last 100+ years have come through the building of international coalitions with common goals and shared leadership, not the kind of unilateral actions Muggsy proposes.
We didn't defeat Hitler on our own. We didn't win the Cold War on our own. We didn't win the first Gulf War on our own. We're not helping Ukraine fend off Russia on our own.
But we did fail in Vietnam when we tried to go it alone. We failed to secure Iraq when we tried to go it alone. We failed in Afghanistan when we tried to go it alone. We failed in Iran when we tried to overthrow the government on our own.

People like Muggsy thumb their noses at working with allies and adhering to international law. They suggest that America and America alone can fix the world. But those of us in the know understand that the path to success requires allies and coalitions.

Hyperbole? You wrote "NOTHING in our history indicates we can solve these problems or help people". The French (for just one of many) at today's celebration might beg to differ.

Pot meet kettle.

[Uncle Rico]

Hyperbole? You wrote "NOTHING in our history indicates we can solve these problems or help people". The French (for just one of many) at today's celebration might beg to differ.

Pot meet kettle.

That's his point.  Our history in WWII included our allies.

[Lennys Tap]

That's his point.  Our history in WWII included our allies.

If you don't think we solved problems or helped people (Pakuni's assertion) in WWII I give up.

[Pakuni]

Hyperbole? You wrote "NOTHING in our history indicates we can solve these problems or help people". The French (for just one of many) at today's celebration might beg to differ.

Pot meet kettle.

Ha.
The French at today's celebration  - not to mention the Brits, the Russians, Czechs, Belgians, Dutch, Poles and many others  - would laugh in your face if you suggested "WE" (i.e. the U.S.) defeated Hitler.
In fact, some of them probably would slug you for it.
I think we discovered the old guy who's not into World War II history.

[Uncle Rico]

If you don't think we solved problems or helped people (Pakuni's assertion) in WWII I give up.

No, he's stated that our greatest successes have been when we have fought with our allies. 

We solved those problems with Canadians, Australians, Poles, British and a wide array of allies in WWII.

You're the one not understanding.

[Lennys Tap]

Ha.
The French at today's celebration  - not to mention the Brits, the Russians, Czechs, Belgians, Dutch, Poles and many others  - would laugh in your face if you suggested the U.S. defeated Hitler on its own.
In fact, some of them probably would slug you for it.
I think we discovered the old guy who's not into World War II history.

I've been to Normandy. Despite your protestations that we did nothing to help them, the French people I met there remain very grateful. Guess they didn't get your memo.

[Pakuni]

I've been to Normandy. Despite your protestations that we did nothing to help them, the French people I met there remain very grateful. Guess they didn't get your memo.

Welp, now you've just shifted into lying mode.

[Lennys Tap]

No, he's stated that our greatest successes have been when we have fought with our allies. 

He said that a whole lot later, long after he said "nothing in our history indicates we can solve these problems OR HELP PEOPLE".

But you only read what you want to read, so...

[Uncle Rico]

He said that a whole lot later, long after he said "nothing in our history indicates we can solve these problems OR HELP PEOPLE".

But you only read what you want to read, so...

Oh, for crying out loud.  Go with that.

[tower912]

What would you like to know about International Law?



2. We supported the Contras in Nicaragua. They were a right-wing terrorist group responsible for the kidnapping, torture and executions of hundreds if not thousands of civilians, including nuns.

By selling arms to Iran. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And this caused Saddam to become the baddy he became?

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that Saddam was not a baddy until after we supported him?

[Mutaman]

Not to go go off topic but thanks to all those guys who hit the beach at Normandy.   

[Mutaman]

Muggsy

La-la land is where a number of scoopers reside. My only hope is that they are playing games or think they are funny.

Isn't La-la-la land where that Keefe dude disappeared to?

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I had the pleasure of taking my older daughter to Normandy in late April 2024. It was loaded with American and British tourists.
I had last visited in 1986.

I visited St. Mere Elise, Utah Beach, Point du Hoc, Omaha Beach, Coleville-sur-mer American Cemetery, and the Polish Cemetery.  We ran out of time to visit Juno Beach.  I can't explain except you have to see them in person. 
I brought home Omaha Beach sand to put on the graves of my two Great Uncles who landed on Omaha.