IDF targets and kills food aid workers

[Pakuni]

Yeah, certainly rape and beheadin' babies is much kinder, aina?

Comparing the IDF's actions with that of Hamas isn't the winning defense of Israel that you think it is.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

They're not raping women and beheading infants

[Pakuni]

They're not raping women and beheading infants

You sure about that?
What do you think happens to infants when a 500-pound bomb hits their home? Think their bodies stay intact?
As for raping women ...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/05/gazan-detainees-beaten-and-sexually-assaulted-at-israeli-detention-centres-un-report-claims

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/claims-of-israeli-sexual-assault-of-palestinian-women-are-credible-un-panel-says

[Hards Alumni]

They're not raping women and beheading infants

A dead kid is still dead.  Plus most of what you're talking about was fabricated, and has been debunked.

I'm not excusing any behavior, but certainly both sides are very responsible for committing war crimes.

[tower912]

Neither side has any moral high ground remaining.

[Hidden User]

Nor do the sides that continue to arm them without conditions or restriction.

[Uncle Rico]

Tough night for the corrupt Netanyahu

https://x.com/danarbell/status/1783200302448972250?s=46&t=QSiaGcOIKZrrpw0ciZkI5Q

[Hidden User]

A dead kid is still dead.  Plus most of what you're talking about was fabricated, and has been debunked.

I'm not excusing any behavior, but certainly both sides are very responsible for committing war crimes.

And there's more and more of them dying with every passing day, with our direct assistance and approval.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68881325.amp

[MUBurrow]

And there's more and more of them dying with every passing day, with our direct assistance and approval.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68881325.amp

Man, that article is tough to parse and a real Rorschach test.  I separate the hospital issue and Rafah offensive.  Re the hospital piece, if the IDF's numbers on killed and detained Hamas militants are accurate, that's the most important fact for me.  As far as I've read, it is widely accepted that Hamas used tunnels under and around Al-Shifa.  It sucks that the legitimate medical professionals were subjected to interrogation, but if Hamas militants are using hospitals to shield their operations and trying to blend into a hospital setting, the IDF can't just say "welp, its a hospital, can't go there."

[Hidden User]

Man, that article is tough to parse and a real Rorschach test.  I separate the hospital issue and Rafah offensive.  Re the hospital piece, if the IDF's numbers on killed and detained Hamas militants are accurate, that's the most important fact for me.  As far as I've read, it is widely accepted that Hamas used tunnels under and around Al-Shifa.  It sucks that the legitimate medical professionals were subjected to interrogation, but if Hamas militants are using hospitals to shield their operations and trying to blend into a hospital setting, the IDF can't just say "welp, its a hospital, can't go there."

I dunno man. Women and children execution style doesn't really ever have a "ends justify the means" level does it?

[JWags85]

I dunno man. Women and children execution style doesn't really ever have a "ends justify the means" level does it?

Yet you automatically assume that the IDF is executing the elderly and women/children?

The IDF has certainly been reckless and wanton in their bombings and killed many civilians in pursuit of their targets, but the side pointing fingers at the IDF "executing" civilians and dumping them in a mass grave...is the one that executed hundreds of civilians at close range, many while bound and gagged.  So Hamas directly accusing the IDF of doing that is amusing.

Also, that article literally states the UN didn't have evidence to corroborate the story and it was coming from Hamas...which was also unsubstantiated.  There is plenty to criticize Israel about as this continues to drag on without gobbling up Hamas driven hearsay

[MUBurrow]

Yet you automatically assume that the IDF is executing the elderly and women/children?

The IDF has certainly been reckless and wanton in their bombings and killed many civilians in pursuit of their targets, but the side pointing fingers at the IDF "executing" civilians and dumping them in a mass grave...is the one that executed hundreds of civilians at close range, many while bound and gagged.  So Hamas directly accusing the IDF of doing that is amusing.

Also, that article literally states the UN didn't have evidence to corroborate the story and it was coming from Hamas...which was also unsubstantiated.  There is plenty to criticize Israel about as this continues to drag on without gobbling up Hamas driven hearsay

Yeah, this is where I was coming from and why I thought that article read like a Rorschach test.  I had to read it multiple times to understand what had been substantiated and what was just rumor. If the IDF were executing women and children in cold blood, that would obviously be straight up evil.  But I haven't seen any reason to believe that is happening, nor, for example, that the IDF intentionally targeted the World Central Kitchen convoy (this is a great article on that - https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-aid-workers-killed-2d08786a9839dfc402632c7ca745acca). 

Like you said Wags, Israel needs to be criticized on a number of fronts - insufficient discrimination between Hamas and civilian targets, siege-style warfare leading to starvation, and military forays into areas they had themselves previously designated as civilian retreat zones. But this notion that they are tying up and executing civilians and dumping them in mass graves is dangerous misinformation.

[Hidden User]

Yet you automatically assume that the IDF is executing the elderly and women/children?

The IDF has certainly been reckless and wanton in their bombings and killed many civilians in pursuit of their targets, but the side pointing fingers at the IDF "executing" civilians and dumping them in a mass grave...is the one that executed hundreds of civilians at close range, many while bound and gagged.  So Hamas directly accusing the IDF of doing that is amusing.

Also, that article literally states the UN didn't have evidence to corroborate the story and it was coming from Hamas...which was also unsubstantiated.  There is plenty to criticize Israel about as this continues to drag on without gobbling up Hamas driven hearsay

Yeah, this is where I was coming from and why I thought that article read like a Rorschach test.  I had to read it multiple times to understand what had been substantiated and what was just rumor. If the IDF were executing women and children in cold blood, that would obviously be straight up evil.  But I haven't seen any reason to believe that is happening, nor, for example, that the IDF intentionally targeted the World Central Kitchen convoy (this is a great article on that - https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-aid-workers-killed-2d08786a9839dfc402632c7ca745acca). 

Like you said Wags, Israel needs to be criticized on a number of fronts - insufficient discrimination between Hamas and civilian targets, siege-style warfare leading to starvation, and military forays into areas they had themselves previously designated as civilian retreat zones. But this notion that they are tying up and executing civilians and dumping them in mass graves is dangerous misinformation.

Are you suggesting they didn't find a mass grave by a hospital that had been under siege for weeks full of people bound, in medical clothing, and with medical devices still attached to them?

Or are you suggesting because Oct 7th occurred then it had to have been the perpetrators of that? The IDF don't execute people.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4477340-un-experts-reports-executions-sexual-assault-israeli-soldiers/amp/

The existence of these graves are not misinformation. But went with Occam's Razor based on the details of the article.

I've been wrong before though. Was told there's simply no way the IDF would attack a hospital when the rocket incident happened.

Tens of thousands of civilians are dead, you tend to gravitate towards the cause of that when things like this are discovered.

[MUBurrow]

Are you suggesting they didn't find a mass grave by a hospital that had been under siege for weeks full of people bound, in medical clothing, and with medical devices still attached to them?

The existence of these graves are not misinformation. But went with Occam's Razor based on the details of the article.

No one is suggesting the graves aren't real. If you carefully read the article, the IDF says they never buried anyone, except for already-buried bodies they exhumed when searching for dead Israeli hostages.  Hamas themselves acknowledges that a "large number of people were buried in makeshift cemetaries" by Palestinians, becuase they accuse the IDF of treating those bodies poorly.  Its quite a jump to "the IDF is executing innocents and dumping them in mass graves."  That jump isn't Occam's Razor, its confirmation bias.

[forgetful]

No one is suggesting the graves aren't real. If you carefully read the article, the IDF says they never buried anyone, except for already-buried bodies they exhumed when searching for dead Israeli hostages.  Hamas themselves acknowledges that a "large number of people were buried in makeshift cemetaries" by Palestinians, becuase they accuse the IDF of treating those bodies poorly.  Its quite a jump to "the IDF is executing innocents and dumping them in mass graves."  That jump isn't Occam's Razor, its confirmation bias.

For you and JWags, at what point does Israel not get the benefit of the doubt.

They provide minimal to no evidence of their claims, have been caught in numerous lies, and leaks indicate that they have completely disregarded civilian casualties.

No other nation in the world would be given this much leeway with so many documented atrocities committed. The only reason there aren't security council resolutions condemning their actions is because the US vetoes them.

[MUBurrow]

For you and JWags, at what point does Israel not get the benefit of the doubt.

They never provide evidence of their claims, have been caught in numerous lies, and leaks indicate that they have completely disregarded civilian casualties.

No other nation in the world would be given this much leeway with so many documented atrocities committed. The only reason there aren't security council resolutions condemning their actions is because the US vetoes them.

I guess I would say first that I disagree with the bolded.  Because of the US's relationship with Israel, we think that Israel somehow has a privileged status in the international community - but that isn't true.  Israel is the most condemned nation at the UN.  Depending on the eye of the beholder, you can take that as either evidence of Israel's consistent wrongdoing or a commentary on the value of UN condemnation, but its not like Israel "gets away" with things other countries don't. 

And I'm not sure what "getting leeway" would mean, anyway.  Like - should the international community levy economic sanctions against Israel for its actions in Gaza? Between paying lip service to "Israel's right to defend itself" and saying that the security counsel should pass condemning resolutions, there is a lot of vague posturing without any real moral clarity on how Israel should be proceeding.

For me the question isn't when should Israel stop getting the benefit of the doubt, its - whats the alternative? Take the Gaza hospital situation. We know Hamas siphons aid away from the Gazan people to fund its militant goals and operates in tunnels under hospitals (if not also blending into hospital environments above ground). Its a really weird solution to say "but because its a hospital, that is off limits for Israel, we just have to keep letting Hamas do that."  As I mentioned, Israel is absolutely doing a piss poor job defining realistic victory conditions and increasingly at sufficiently minimizing collateral damage.  But at the end of the day, you have to default to one of "Israel has a right to defend itself" or "Israel shouldn't get the benefit of the doubt" more than the other.  For me, its the former until their modus operandi is morally worse than the vision put forward by their enemies. And we aren't there.

[forgetful]

I guess I would say first that I disagree with the bolded.  Because of the US's relationship with Israel, we think that Israel somehow has a privileged status in the international community - but that isn't true.  Israel is the most condemned nation at the UN.  Depending on the eye of the beholder, you can take that as either evidence of Israel's consistent wrongdoing or a commentary on the value of UN condemnation, but its not like Israel "gets away" with things other countries don't. 

And I'm not sure what "getting leeway" would mean, anyway.  Like - should the international community levy economic sanctions against Israel for its actions in Gaza? Between paying lip service to "Israel's right to defend itself" and saying that the security counsel should pass condemning resolutions, there is a lot of vague posturing without any real moral clarity on how Israel should be proceeding.

For me the question isn't when should Israel stop getting the benefit of the doubt, its - whats the alternative? Take the Gaza hospital situation. We know Hamas siphons aid away from the Gazan people to fund its militant goals and operates in tunnels under hospitals (if not also blending into hospital environments above ground). Its a really weird solution to say "but because its a hospital, that is off limits for Israel, we just have to keep letting Hamas do that."  As I mentioned, Israel is absolutely doing a piss poor job defining realistic victory conditions and increasingly at sufficiently minimizing collateral damage.  But at the end of the day, you have to default to one of "Israel has a right to defend itself" or "Israel shouldn't get the benefit of the doubt" more than the other.  For me, its the former until their modus operandi is morally worse than the vision put forward by their enemies. And we aren't there.

The bolded should be read with the sentence following it. The key part is that no actions are ever taken against Israel, because we protect them in the security council.

Next, Israel does have a right to defend itself. It is hard for anyone to argue what they are doing right now is defending themselves.

If you are a person in the West Bank, your homes are raided, and burned to the ground by settlers, family/friends shot by settlers, who are helped by the IDF. The IDF rapes and murders civilians, and the only punishment is that those involved aren't allowed to be promoted for 2-years (these are conclusions by US investigations). Those events are documented facts. Is that them defending themselves? At what point are they no better than Hamas, when they act in that way?

Pretty much everything else you bring up, is the IDF account of what occurred, which contradicts photographic evidence, and eyewitness reports. The IDF has been caught in numerous lies. The IDF doesn't provide evidence to justify their claims. When does someone like you stop giving them the benefit of the doubt?

[MUBurrow]

At what point are they no better than Hamas, when they act in that way?

So its this, right here.  We've entered this insane place where a significant portion of America doesn't think Israel is better than Hamas.  The best comparison for Israel's quagmire in Gaza is America's war in Afghanistan - not militant Islamists.  When you say that you can't argue Israel is defending themselves right now, that's no more true than it is to say that America wasn't defending itself in Afghanistan. 

Let's say I "stop giving Israel the benefit of the doubt" - to the degree that matters for anything - and all IDF personnel leave Gaza tomorrow.  How long until Hamas is again stealing international aid to fund militant incursions (to the extent they aren't now) and tunneling under hospitals again? How long until rockets are flying into Israel again?  I can come up with a laundry list of Israeli policies toward the Palestinians that I think are awful, and the West Bank is at the top of the list.  Bibi should be removed from office yesterday, if not put in jail.  But the outrage is coming from a privileged place of not actually having to consider any alternatives.

[Hards Alumni]

Yet you automatically assume that the IDF is executing the elderly and women/children?

The IDF has certainly been reckless and wanton in their bombings and killed many civilians in pursuit of their targets, but the side pointing fingers at the IDF "executing" civilians and dumping them in a mass grave...is the one that executed hundreds of civilians at close range, many while bound and gagged.  So Hamas directly accusing the IDF of doing that is amusing.

Also, that article literally states the UN didn't have evidence to corroborate the story and it was coming from Hamas...which was also unsubstantiated.  There is plenty to criticize Israel about as this continues to drag on without gobbling up Hamas driven hearsay

I hate to tell you that using the excuse of, "well they did it also" isn't a great one when you're trying to defend horrible actions.  One group involved is a government entity and the other is a terrorist organization.  The world should PROBABLY hold one of them to a higher standard.  Bombing places into rubble to kill one or two fighters with the knowledge that there are civilians inside is still kinda murderous.  Israel can claim that Hamas uses human shields in any building they want to destroy and as long as they say, "well there was a terrorist in there" they're allowed to annihilate it... who cares if women and children are maimed, disfigured, or turned into a red mist as long as they got their guy!

[4everwarriors]

Hamas attacked Israel on Oct. 7. War's a bitch. Sometimes you're the hydrant and sometimes you're the dog. Israel would have squashed Hamas in a NY minute if Blinken and Biden/Obama would STFU, aina?

[JWags85]

I hate to tell you that using the excuse of, "well they did it also" isn't a great one when you're trying to defend horrible actions.  One group involved is a government entity and the other is a terrorist organization.  The world should PROBABLY hold one of them to a higher standard.  Bombing places into rubble to kill one or two fighters with the knowledge that there are civilians inside is still kinda murderous.  Israel can claim that Hamas uses human shields in any building they want to destroy and as long as they say, "well there was a terrorist in there" they're allowed to annihilate it... who cares if women and children are maimed, disfigured, or turned into a red mist as long as they got their guy!

I'm not using the "well they also did it" as an excuse.  I'm using it, as Burrow alluded to, in highlighting the fact that the claims are being made directly by Hamas.  And without firm evidence to support the allegations against Israel, the burden of proof is on the accuser and that's literal terrorists.

I already said their bombing is reckless and too heavy handed.  Even reasonable supporters of Israel can admit that.  But thats a far cry from accepting Hamas at their word without substantiating evidence because you think the IDF is horrible.  Like Burrow said, its not a soverign nation/government thats reporting from the other side.  Its Hamas, and people are just glossing over it cause "Israhell bad!"

[Hards Alumni]

I guess I would say first that I disagree with the bolded.  Because of the US's relationship with Israel, we think that Israel somehow has a privileged status in the international community - but that isn't true.  Israel is the most condemned nation at the UN.  Depending on the eye of the beholder, you can take that as either evidence of Israel's consistent wrongdoing or a commentary on the value of UN condemnation, but its not like Israel "gets away" with things other countries don't.

Of course they do.  If this was the Balkans there would be worldwide condemnation and sanctions.  But the Israeli government and its lobbying groups have a stranglehold on the US government.  Not to mention the US uses Israel as a testing grounds for weapons as well as a massive unsinkable aircraft carrier in the region.  Consider that Israel is absolutely a client state of the USA. 

And I'm not sure what "getting leeway" would mean, anyway.  Like - should the international community levy economic sanctions against Israel for its actions in Gaza? Between paying lip service to "Israel's right to defend itself" and saying that the security counsel should pass condemning resolutions, there is a lot of vague posturing without any real moral clarity on how Israel should be proceeding.

Yes.  There should be sanctions for bad behavior.  There is no other way to force a country to conform to international norms.  At some point "Israel defending itself" went bye bye.  This doesn't look like defense.  It looks like wanton destruction, civilian slaughter, and no end in sight.  If Israel wants the hostages back they should agree to a ceasefire and an exchange.  Personally, I doubt very much that Hamas can produce as many hostages as Israel is still looking for.  But this has to end, and all wars end in peace, eventually.

For me the question isn't when should Israel stop getting the benefit of the doubt, its - whats the alternative? Take the Gaza hospital situation. We know Hamas siphons aid away from the Gazan people to fund its militant goals and operates in tunnels under hospitals (if not also blending into hospital environments above ground). Its a really weird solution to say "but because its a hospital, that is off limits for Israel, we just have to keep letting Hamas do that."  As I mentioned, Israel is absolutely doing a piss poor job defining realistic victory conditions and increasingly at sufficiently minimizing collateral damage.  But at the end of the day, you have to default to one of "Israel has a right to defend itself" or "Israel shouldn't get the benefit of the doubt" more than the other.  For me, its the former until their modus operandi is morally worse than the vision put forward by their enemies. And we aren't there.

The alternative is stop.  Pick up the pieces of millions of people's broken lives.  There will be enmity for years.  Also, don't worry, there are no more hospitals to bomb in Gaza.  There are many fewer doctors to work at those hospitals since they've been killed.  Israel isn't doing a piss poor job of defining realistic victory conditions.  They aren't doing it at all.  "Destroying Hamas" isn't realistic.  In a patch of land that size there will be fighters hiding for decades.  There will ALWAYS be a reason to fight Israel as long as there is no way to compensate all of the Palestinians that have been forcefully displaced since the nakba.  People can dream about a two state solutions, but there is no trust from either side.  The continued forceful displacement of Palestinians in the West Bank is a perfect example.  If you're going to lose everything you own including your home and the land under your feet to someone who showed up and kicked you and your family out how would you respond?  How would an Israeli family respond?  I will reiterate the saying I've been using for months.  You can't destroy an ideology at the end of a barrel of a gun. 

[Hards Alumni]

Hamas attacked Israel on Oct. 7. War's a bitch. Sometimes you're the hydrant and sometimes you're the dog. Israel would have squashed Hamas in a NY minute if Blinken and Biden/Obama would STFU, aina?

Look how well the US accomplished its mission in Iraq and Afghanistan.  We pissed all over that fire hydrant and what do we have to show for it.  The US spent trillions of dollars, thousands of lives and decades to prove that you can't kill all the extremists.  You just create more.

But you're not exactly a historian, are you?

[Hards Alumni]

I'm not using the "well they also did it" as an excuse.  I'm using it, as Burrow alluded to, in highlighting the fact that the claims are being made directly by Hamas.  And without firm evidence to support the allegations against Israel, the burden of proof is on the accuser and that's literal terrorists.

I already said their bombing is reckless and too heavy handed.  Even reasonable supporters of Israel can admit that.  But thats a far cry from accepting Hamas at their word without substantiating evidence because you think the IDF is horrible.  Like Burrow said, its not a soverign nation/government thats reporting from the other side.  Its Hamas, and people are just glossing over it cause "Israhell bad!"

There is an incredible double standard that applies here.  Both sides are waging not just a war, but a strong propaganda war as well.  Prior to 10/7 the numbers that Hamas put out for deaths etc were believed.  Now they're not for some reason.  Same goes for Israel.  There are a lot of people (especially politicians who benefit financially) who accept whatever Israel says.  It doesn't matter if what they've said has been proven to be false.  Those lies are pushed and propagated and repeated until they are made truth.

Both sides lie their asses off.  But one side always gets the benefit of the doubt in the mainstream press of the USA.

[Uncle Rico]

Look how well the US accomplished its mission in Iraq and Afghanistan.  We pissed all over that fire hydrant and what do we have to show for it.  The US spent trillions of dollars, thousands of lives and decades to prove that you can't kill all the extremists.  You just create more.

But you're not exactly a historian, are you?

It's hilarious that's the narrative they're going with.  The billions of dollars and military support to Israel isn't real, I guess. 

The problem is Israel leadership and the people of Israel know it but the Fox News brigade is ignoring that