US Economy thread

[jesmu84]

Brother TAMU:

First of all, don't apologize. If you don't think I'm reasonable, there's nothing to apologize for. I don't feel bad about it because we have a respectful difference of opinion.

Second, the burden has to fall on someone. Yeah, when I was 17, I doubt I was mature enough to have an intelligent conversation about debt with a banker. I didn't know anything, other than "debt was bad." Comes from having parents who lived through the Depression. Perhaps the way to do it is to change the disclosure. Customize it to what the borrower is borrowing for. Write the loan's language in English, not legalize.

Second, as far as free college goes, there is ample example of what happens when college is totally free. My children went to Southern Illinois University and SIU, for years, had a program called MAPP, which provided free educations to very disadvantaged youth. While it was an incredible program and some people benefitted heavily from it, the drop-out rate after freshman year at SIU for years was way too high. There's a lot of reasons for that but one was somebody gave you something for free and because you didn't have skin in the game, you didn't care.

Lenders feel the same way, which is why downpayments on real estate ALWAYS are required! You have to have skin in the game.

Finally, to your question, What the hell kind of person would i be if I demanded future generations be burdened simply because I was burdened?, the answer is a Congressman from either party!!!!!!!

By that logic, you believe K-12 should be paid for by the students then?

[Hards Alumni]

PLM

I have not really voiced my opinion on student debt forgiveness and was just wondering if you thought the people that made sacrifices to avoid student loans was due anything.

My take on the situation is that I have almost stopped caring how the government spends money. If they forgave all the debt, it would not be a top ten misuse of government money over the past 20 years imo. Now, I would hope they would have more common sense and try to find ways without footing the whole bill, but that is probably wishful thinking.

Exactly!  Plus it is an indirect stimulus!  All of those dollars that would have gone to paying student debt can now flow freely into the economy to buy more junk... or if you're under 40 'experiences'.

[Hards Alumni]

Brother TAMU:

First of all, don't apologize. If you don't think I'm reasonable, there's nothing to apologize for. I don't feel bad about it because we have a respectful difference of opinion.

Second, the burden has to fall on someone. Yeah, when I was 17, I doubt I was mature enough to have an intelligent conversation about debt with a banker. I didn't know anything, other than "debt was bad." Comes from having parents who lived through the Depression. Perhaps the way to do it is to change the disclosure. Customize it to what the borrower is borrowing for. Write the loan's language in English, not legalize.

Second, as far as free college goes, there is ample example of what happens when college is totally free. My children went to Southern Illinois University and SIU, for years, had a program called MAPP, which provided free educations to very disadvantaged youth. While it was an incredible program and some people benefitted heavily from it, the drop-out rate after freshman year at SIU for years was way too high. There's a lot of reasons for that but one was somebody gave you something for free and because you didn't have skin in the game, you didn't care.

Lenders feel the same way, which is why downpayments on real estate ALWAYS are required! You have to have skin in the game.

Finally, to your question, What the hell kind of person would i be if I demanded future generations be burdened simply because I was burdened?, the answer is a Congressman from either party!!!!!!!

To the bolded, so what?  Sure some kids had 'too much fun', but there were probably a lot of positive experiences and kids who didn't have opportunities that had a chance.  And that is an objectively good thing.  Would you be okay with free college as long as a diploma was earned? 

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

PLM

Would you be supportive of the student loans being forgiven and every person that paid their own way getting a check that matches the average student loan?

Progress (however the current generation defines it) isn’t constrained by equity of the past.  So in some instances yes (Georgetown tuition for decedents of people they sold) and in some instances no (GI bill was for WWII vets not compensating prior veterans). Both can be ok in my opinion. 

[Goose]

Frenn’s

I am not promoting any agenda. Just curious if someone had peer that paid their own way of paid off their student loans, would they support them getting a check. I am talking apples to apples.

Can only speak for myself, but I would feel badly if my best friend paid off all of his debt and I got a free pass. I have found the replies to be interesting.

[Skatastrophy]

Frenn’s

I am promoting any agenda. Just curious if someone had peer that paid their own way of paid off their student loans, would they support them getting a check. I am talking apples to apples.

Can only speak for myself, but I would feel badly if my best friend paid off all of his debt and I got a free pass. I have found the replies to be interesting.

Student loan reparations. Has Scoop jumped the shark?

[lawdog77]

Frenn’s

I am not promoting any agenda. Just curious if someone had peer that paid their own way of paid off their student loans, would they support them getting a check. I am talking apples to apples.

Can only speak for myself, but I would feel badly if my best friend paid off all of his debt and I got a free pass. I have found the replies to be interesting.

what if you took that money you were spending on your student loan,and spent it buying things in your friends store? Would you still feel bad?

[Goose]

Skatastrophy

This country jumped the shark. I cannot even believe this topic is being discussed. As I mentioned, I don’t care if they forgive debt and give everyone that debt a million dollars. The whole thing is insanity, imo

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Frenn’s

I am not promoting any agenda. Just curious if someone had peer that paid their own way of paid off their student loans, would they support them getting a check. I am talking apples to apples.

Can only speak for myself, but I would feel badly if my best friend paid off all of his debt and I got a free pass. I have found the replies to be interesting.

Would you feel bad if your parents paid entirely for your college experience but the guy in the room next door had to work a couple jobs to make it work?

[Goose]

Fluff

100%. My parents paid and my best friend to this day paid his own way. I literally paid 100% of our entertainment expenses, which was high. We have talked this topic many times and we both appreciate our friendship and our paths.

So, I will say again, I have always appreciated every path a person takes. I am sure you will question that, but that is factual.

I will add, he has 4-5x more wealthy than I am and I could not be happier. Ironically, we disagree on politics, but have a bond for life.

[MU82]

We paid the college costs of both of our kids. It was something that was important to us, something my wife and I talked about wanting to do even before we had kids.

And it doesn’t bother me even a tiny bit that other students have had their loans forgiven. In fact, I’m happy for those people, some of whom have been making student-loan payments for more than a decade.

[Goose]

82

That is great. Respect your commitment to your children and other people less fortunate.  Do you understand why other people may feel differently? Do you respect their feelings?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Can you respect one's feelings but still believe they're wrong?

[Skatastrophy]

Having an uneducated workforce, with fewer people going to college, will negatively affect the US economy.

[Uncle Rico]

Having an uneducated workforce, with fewer people going to college, will negatively affect the US economy.

Sure, but we pride ourselves here in America on being ignorant. 

[MU82]

82

That is great. Respect your commitment to your children and other people less fortunate.  Do you understand why other people may feel differently? Do you respect their feelings?

I respect that’s their feelings. I also believe their anger is misplaced, in part because they’ve misled by “leaders” who want to enrich themselves.

[dgies9156]

Would you feel bad if your parents paid entirely for your college experience but the guy in the room next door had to work a couple jobs to make it work?

I didn't feel bad that I was very fortunate. I went to Mass and thanked God for the gift I was given.  I wished and hoped and even prayed everyone had the same chance I did, but that's not the way the world works.

My Dad and Mom paid my education and that of my brothers and sisters, but there was one catch: Pay it forward.

My wife, on the other hand, used loans and jobs to work her way through Marquette. She worked two jobs and had some debt.

Over the years since, our charitable giving has been focused on giving others the chance I had (just as my parents did with their charitable giving). And like Brother MU, when our children were ready for college, we paid their way. Sometimes, I think, as I mentioned elsewhere, they should have had skin in the game, but with their learning disabilities, that wasn't as possible as we would have liked.

[jesmu84]

Why should college students have skin in the game but not younger students?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Second, as far as free college goes, there is ample example of what happens when college is totally free. My children went to Southern Illinois University and SIU, for years, had a program called MAPP, which provided free educations to very disadvantaged youth. While it was an incredible program and some people benefitted heavily from it, the drop-out rate after freshman year at SIU for years was way too high. There's a lot of reasons for that but one was somebody gave you something for free and because you didn't have skin in the game, you didn't care.

Lenders feel the same way, which is why downpayments on real estate ALWAYS are required! You have to have skin in the game.

So let me ask you this. Did Goose and Rocket's kids not care about their education because their parents paid for their college? Or are they the exception as "great Americans"?

In all seriousness, I've heard this argument before and I don't buy it. You are essentially arguing the sunk cost fallacy again. That people need a sunk cost in order to be motivated to educate themself. You say they need skin in the game. I think they have it. Chance at an education and a better paying career. That's their skin in the game. Not a sunk cost that's already gone.

What I think you may be conflating, is that putting any sort of barrier around a college education helps weed out the motivated students from the unmotivated ones. Cost is a huge a barrier for a college education (especially today). Remove that cost and yes, you will see some who go to college despite not having the stomach for it because why not? And those students are more likely to drop out. But they would have dropped out even if they had to foot the bill themselves. The (sunk) cost isn't what drives students toward graduation. It's a barrier that makes one pause and consider, "do I want to do this?". Of course, I'd argue it's too big of a barrier now and a lot of people who do have the drive are being kept out due to lack of resources.

And if making college free leads to the graduation rate lowering, so what? Yes, some will go despite not having the drive for it and they will drop out. But I'd be willing to bet that a significant portion of those who didn't think college was for them but go because it's free, end up rising to the challenge and persisting anyway. The graduation rate may go down but total graduations would go up. I don't think that would be a bad thing.

I said before that despite my thoughts above, I don't know that free college is actually a good idea. My concern more lies in the economics of it and concern that it would result in worsened product due to budget constraints. But I don't think the skin in the game argument is a good one.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

82

That is great. Respect your commitment to your children and other people less fortunate.  Do you understand why other people may feel differently? Do you respect their feelings?

I understand why they may feel differently. I respect that they have the right to feel how they feel. But I find their feelings to be selfish, destructive, and illogical.

To be clear, there is a lot of room to debate whether loan forgiveness is the right decision and if it is the right decision, what form that loan forgiveness should take. I'm not on the "forgive all debt" train but do think some amount of forgiveness is warranted and would be healthy. But the argument of "I suffered so my neighbor should suffer as I did" is not a logical, loving, or Christian argument.

I don't think "it's not fair to people who already paid their loans" should have any place in this conversation. That is a sunk cost. The decision needs to be forward-thinking, "is this the best decision for America moving forward" should really be the only question considered.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I understand why they may feel differently. I respect that they have the right to feel how they feel. But I find their feelings to be selfish, destructive, and illogical.

To be clear, there is a lot of room to debate whether loan forgiveness is the right decision and if it is the right decision, what form that loan forgiveness should take. I'm not on the "forgive all debt" train but do think some amount of forgiveness is warranted and would be healthy. But the argument of "I suffered so my neighbor should suffer as I did" is not a logical, loving, or Christian argument.

I don't think "it's not fair to people who already paid their loans" should have any place in this conversation. That is a sunk cost. The decision needs to be forward-thinking, "is this the best decision for America moving forward" should really be the only question considered.

Yep.

If people were mad that they raised their kids at a time before the child tax credit, should that have factored into its adoption 30 years ago? No. And it wasn’t.

[MU82]

North Carolina is one of many states that has started to use taxpayer money to help parents send kids to private schools. (I don’t like the policy, but that’s beside the point.)

If you’re a NC parent who found some way to put your kids through private school 10 years ago, are you ticked off now that some of today’s parents are getting taxpayer money to do the same thing?

[The Lens]

My view on student loan forgiveness, is the same is my view on immigration.

I'm a capitalist. I want to make money.  I want the economy to soar. 

People make money. People move economies.  People are the life blood to capitalism.  If we let more people in, more people can buy things, more people can sell things.  If we forgive loans, more people can buy things -- more people can participate in the economy.

Stop telling me about your feelings, start thinking about the economy. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Remember when Republicans didn’t think feelings were important? Good times.

[tower912]

I don't mind that they got in touch with their feelings.   I just miss the days when they dealt in facts and mocked the conspiracy theory types.