US Economy thread

[rocket surgeon]

Rocket

My bad. My kids lived on campus, but after they graduated. They came home for one reason, to save money. As I mentioned, I hope that every scooper can help their kids in the same manner.

You did good, Rocket!!!

  thanks goose, you know my boys and I've met yours as well-great americans

my oldest did live at home for about 6 mos while he and his fiance saved for their house

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Good to know we are only accepting articles from an, as yet, undetermined time frame.  What are we looking for?  Do you expect the sourced data from that article change?  No?  Only an article from the last year?  An NPR interview will do, obviously.

Will the goal posts continue to move?

If you think data that is nine years old supports your opinion, that's fine.

I don't though. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I'm not sure if you're referring to me here, but I'm significantly more concerned for the poorest third of the country than the middle third, although I do think the gap between the top 10% and the rest of us will continue to grow.

Sultan --

Apologies in advance if this is scattered as I haven't had time to organize my thoughts, but when I said rewards, I meant I don't believe we're benefitting nearly as much when making "smart" choices.

The average college graduate starting salary has increased about 37% since 2000 according to the National Center for Education Statistics. A 75th percentile salary was 72K in 2000 and 95K in 2023, an increase of 31%. Over that same time period, cost of living is up 70%. In the same timeframe, tuition costs are up 65%. Rent is up 73%. Mortgage rates are about the same, but property values are much higher. Which is great when you already have had property but much worse for first time homebuyers with higher debt to income ratios than we've seen in the past. These aren't small costs and when you think of what that means in terms of monthly expenses and revenues, it becomes very difficult to accumulate wealth at the same pace as past generations.

A higher percentage of college graduates are working as consultants instead of as full time employees. This isn't by choice. Corporations are offering less and less full time positions as they look to save money. So in addition to salaries not keeping up with inflation, people now have to pay more for healthcare, other benefits, and get less time off. A similar percentage of the workforce is earning minimum wage as 20 years ago, but the minimum wage hasn't increased or has barely increased in most places.

Major costs are all rising significantly faster than incomes. We're expected to cover a higher percentage of those costs, as corporations cover less. After the same expenses, we are seeing a much smaller percentage of our income than previous generations. And unless something changes drastically, the next generation will see an even smaller percentage of their incomes. The stock market is doing well, but we're able to put a lower and lower percentage of our money into it, making wealth accumulation more difficult. And that's not even to get into the significantly harsher challenges that the poorest third of the country have to face but aren't part of my reality.

And again, I'm not trying to complain. I'm sure there are positive strides we've made that I'm unaware of. I need to continue to become more educated on this topic. The reality is the reality and we need to individually and collectively find a way to navigate it. But in my opinion, too many people are denying the reality. Individually, we can still find ways to succeed. Collectively, it looks bleaker and bleaker with each passing year, and it will only become a bigger problem unless we all acknowledge it.

I'll try to expand on my positions later.

EDIT: Completely agree with Hards on trades professions. That's one area where there is a lot more opportunity than in the past.

EDIT 2: I enjoyed this Ted Talk if anyone has time to spend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEJ4hkpQW8E

I appreciate this response. I've read it twice and will look at it more carefully later.

[Goose]

Rocket

No doubt that our boys are GREAT Americans. I frickin love it!!

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Rocket

No doubt that our boys are GREAT Americans. I frickin love it!!

lol.

[Skatastrophy]

lol.

You're a great american, lol

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

You're a great american, lol

Thanks. As are you.

[Goose]

Fluff

Why is it that I love my boys is funny to you? Is there something wrong with being proud of my kids? I seriously have no idea how any adult would laugh about a parent loving their kids.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Fluff

Why is it that I love my boys is funny to you? Is there something wrong with being proud of my kids? I seriously have no idea how any adult would love about a parent loving their kids.

That's not why I'm laughing.

[Goose]

Then why are you laughing?

[rocket surgeon]

Then why are you laughing?

  ...OUT LOUD

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Then why are you laughing?

You're (unintentionally) humorous.

[Goose]

Fluff

What was unintentionally humorous? Maybe you taking the bait was the joke.

[Skatastrophy]

  ...OUT LOUD

lol means lots of love

[jesmu84]

Speaking of college...do y'all remember when you could work a summer job and pay for your tuition?

[tower912]

No.

[rocky_warrior]

You're a great american, lol

You are an inconsistently outstanding American.

[Skatastrophy]

You are an inconsistently outstanding American.

Thanks Rocky, you're also a notable American

[tower912]

...now everybody, do the propoganda
and sing along to the age of paranoia...

[JWags85]

But that's not what the post gen X generations were told.

"Go to college. Accrue a little debt. Your reward is a financially stable, middle class life."

Multiple generations have kept up their part.

Instead, they're saddled with an enormous amount of debt. They're being underpaid in relation to inflation and/or production (and getting worse every year).

Not to mention near-zero chance of a middle class lifestyle with children on one income as the boomers enjoyed.

I'm not entirely victim blaming, but the idea of "go to college and you'll be fine no matter what" hasn't been true for 20 years.  People using that myth to justify complaining that they can't find a job or they are underemployed with a degree from a middling university in a silly major.  Some of that definitely falls to parents for buying into it, but it wasn't a prevailing theme even recently.

I graduated HS in 2003 and even then my parents and my friends parents were very much of the mentality of "we'll help you with school, but make sure its a degree with value."  Hell, I was a Psych major (eventually double major) and I had to work out what I planned to do with it for my dad and my grandfather (one for college help, the other for avoiding stern lectures about my future).   I got into a good school so I was fortunate, but my neighbor who was a year younger ended up going to CC for 2 years and transferring to Marquette (instead of going 4 years at a lower level school), not in small part to discussions his father and my father had.

I'm firmly a millennial and I have siblings aged across the next decade into the zoomers, so I have a broad scope of viewpoints and experiences of the age range.  I don't disagree with some of the points, what I do disagree with is supposedly smart people (both parents and children) who employed little to no critical thinking and now perpetually complain about the system.  For everyone first generation college grad with a ton of debt who is underemployed (who has truly been screwed and I feel for) you have another one or two 20 somethings who graduated with a 3.0 from a mid level university with a marketing degree and expect a very well paying job because they have a degree.
 
Also, for your statement about middle class income, I think people havent scaled what they think of as middle class.  I saw median income for middle class nationally was roughly $91K.  I know 3 different friends/family who make within $10K of that number who are a single earner household with 1-2 kids.  They don't live in Lincoln Park or Brookfield or Highland Park (they are in Chicago, MKE, and Dallas burbs respectively) but they have no issue with it.  I would cede that its tougher with current interest rates, but 2 of them bought in the 4% range (the other still rents a 3BR apartment).  I feel like people making the "middle class can't do XYZ" argument still view middle class as $60-70K.

[Jockey]

I'm not entirely victim blaming, but the idea of "go to college and you'll be fine no matter what" hasn't been true for 20 years.  People using that myth to justify complaining that they can't find a job or they are underemployed with a degree from a middling university in a silly major.  Some of that definitely falls to parents for buying into it, but it wasn't a prevailing theme even recently.

.......

Great post. I think you and Tower have really hit the nail on the head.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm not entirely victim blaming, but the idea of "go to college and you'll be fine no matter what" hasn't been true for 20 years.  People using that myth to justify complaining that they can't find a job or they are underemployed with a degree from a middling university in a silly major.  Some of that definitely falls to parents for buying into it, but it wasn't a prevailing theme even recently.

I graduated HS in 2003 and even then my parents and my friends parents were very much of the mentality of "we'll help you with school, but make sure its a degree with value."  Hell, I was a Psych major (eventually double major) and I had to work out what I planned to do with it for my dad and my grandfather (one for college help, the other for avoiding stern lectures about my future).   I got into a good school so I was fortunate, but my neighbor who was a year younger ended up going to CC for 2 years and transferring to Marquette (instead of going 4 years at a lower level school), not in small part to discussions his father and my father had.

I'm firmly a millennial and I have siblings aged across the next decade into the zoomers, so I have a broad scope of viewpoints and experiences of the age range.  I don't disagree with some of the points, what I do disagree with is supposedly smart people (both parents and children) who employed little to no critical thinking and now perpetually complain about the system.  For everyone first generation college grad with a ton of debt who is underemployed (who has truly been screwed and I feel for) you have another one or two 20 somethings who graduated with a 3.0 from a mid level university with a marketing degree and expect a very well paying job because they have a degree.
 

This feels very anecdotal, so allow me some anecdotes of my own!

I was four years after you and while my dad was a first generation college student, my mom's family had gone to college for at least the previous four generations. I don't know if I would say my parents were "go to college and you'll be fine no matter what" believers, but what I do know was that I was told not going to college was not an option for me. I mean that literally, there was a time I expressed interest in going a different route and I was told I would be going to college whether I liked it or not. It was the right choice for me, but there were no conversations for me about finding a degree with value. I was told we will pay for half your college, you will pay for the other half, the rest is up to you to figure out. Ultimately I did figure it out. I struggled for many years post-graduation but I managed to stay above water until a couple of years ago when my career finally took off and am now comfortable. It was a weird path, I spent a lot of years working jobs under $40K a year but living in employee housing to offset the lack of salary, and it worked out.

My wife was two years after me. She's the daughter of a librarian and a failed janitor. Her mom was first generation college student, no one in her dad's family had ever gone to college. She didn't have the test scores to go to an elite university but was considering SUNY level schools. Her parents pushed her to attend a local private school (IIRC you know the one, I think we discovered our wives were alumni of the same school) because in their mind "private was better". As a 17 year old my wife was the one questioning, "this is a lot of money, should I go to a community college first" but the consistent refrain she heard from her parents was that the debt didn't matter because as long as she graduated, she would end up with a high paying job. To make matters worse, her parents tell her that they will take out Parent Plus loans but she will be responsible for paying them back afterward (these are of course scaled to income of a librarian with 35+ years of experience, not the income of a recent college grad who hasn't gotten a job yet). So she goes and gets a psych degree from an undergrad institution that is more expensive than Marquette but no one outside of Long Island has ever heard of. She leaves with six figures in debt, needing to make two separate payments a month (one for her direct loans, one paying back her parents for their loan) and no job prospects that could remotely accommodate that. Now, she too made it work. She put the debt in deferment by getting a master's degree and then doctoral degree from a much more prestigious university in a much more valuable field and now makes enough to handle those payments and the rest of life.

My six cousins (from two sets of aunts/uncles) range from being four years behind me to eleven years behind me. None of their parents went to college but all were insistent that their kids go to college. They all cited the belief that it was the only way for them to have a better life. The first four of them all go to different colleges (various mid-size publics in Michigan) and none of them make it past their sophomore year. All of them either fail out or drop out. The fifth one makes it through graduation and finds zero job prospects. The sixth one opted to join the army instead (and is thriving). The five who went to college all end up various trades and while one is still finding his way the other four are extremely happy. But if you talk to them, they bemoan the lost years of earning they could have had if they went straight into their trades.

In general, I think we overestimate how "supposedly smart" people are at 17/18 when they have to make these decisions. We're asking children to take on tens of thousands in debt with no required conversations about the ramifications or their future earning potential. Ideally, they have a parent or guardian who is savvy enough to have the conversations that it sounds like your family had with you, but I think more often than not, the parent involved is either unwilling to or incapable of having those kinds of conversations effectively. I think most high schools could benefit from requiring additional classes on financial literacy. I don't know what others experiences were but I had one class my junior year on economics. We learned how to balance a checkbook (I haven't balanced a checkbook since), were given pretend money to invest in pretend stocks (this was actually useful), and had to make a fake business plan for a made up business (could have been useful but I remember just making up numbers and no one calling me on it). 

[lawdog77]

If people would spend their time at a second job instead of message boards, problem solved.

[rocket surgeon]

seems like weekend has just turned this college thing into the "new bank bail out" operation.  way past due to put the financial onus on the colleges who offer these value-less "edumacations" so they can put their money where their mouth is.  make them responsible for collecting the debt. 
   maybe these schools would then quit offering some of these fairy tale majors the 'students" could learn in a few hours online on their own

btw wags, my youngest son story is very similar to yours.  I told him (gently however) to sprinkle  some business/marketing in with his psych major and he had the good fortunes of getting in to a work study with a prominent Milwaukee area business.  he walked straight off the stage with his diploma into this company's line and has been promoted numerous times and yes, it is within their marketing department.  my oldest, in finance, is also in the marketing department of a prominent national financial institution

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

seems like weekend has just turned this college thing into the "new bank bail out" operation.  way past due to put the financial onus on the colleges who offer these value-less "edumacations" so they can put their money where their mouth is.  make them responsible for collecting the debt. 
   maybe these schools would then quit offering some of these fairy tale majors the 'students" could learn in a few hours online on their own

btw wags, my youngest son story is very similar to yours.  I told him (gently however) to sprinkle  some business/marketing in with his psych major and he had the good fortunes of getting in to a work study with a prominent Milwaukee area business.  he walked straight off the stage with his diploma into this company's line and has been promoted numerous times and yes, it is within their marketing department.  my oldest, in finance, is also in the marketing department of a prominent national financial institution

Expansion of the student loan debt relief program for teachers and law enforcement isn’t necessarily bad public policy.