Wisdom of playing Mbakwe

[Pakuni]

.......escapes me.

I see where they said he just started practicing on Thursday.

And I sure didn't think he looked 100 percent.

Ahem ...

Mbakwe's rehabilitation had been ahead of schedule, however, and he had working out extensively with the team in recent weeks since receiving medical clearance to do so.

"It got to the point that my rehab workouts were harder than actually practicing and playing," Mbakwe said in a release

http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/2008/02/15/mu-lifts-redshirt-on-mbakwe-will-play-tonight.aspx

And besides, it never was a health issue for you, right?

Well, gee whiz genius -- Trevor himself seems to say otherwise:

"I knew I was going to come back, but we didn't predict it until the St. John's game next week," said Mbakwe. "This was earlier than we decided. I had worked out with the physical therapist and the doctor on Wednesday, Thursday I practiced with the team for the first time and then Thursday night (the doctor) told me he'd clear me to play, that everything was good and he didn't have a problem with me playing."

I'm not positive, but I believe when somebody says "Thursday I practiced with the team for the first time" it means that Thursday was the first time he practiced with the team.

Or am I mistaken?

Actually, you may very well be mistaken.

While Thursday may indeed have been his first full team practice, that's not necessarily the same as his first practice nor is it that same as him not doing anything at all prior to Thursday, which is what your initial post implied.
As the MU press release announcing his return states, he'd been cleared for/resuming "basketball activities" for several weeks. I would suspect "basketball activities" includes practicing basketball, but perhaps - as with most things around here, it seems - you know the "real" story.

FWIW, I'm not quite a genius, but thanks for recognizing my superior intelligence.  

[Marquette84]

84, is the teal green for sarcasm or smugness? 

Sarcasm.

Your post had a monopoly on smugness.

But let me ask you straight out:   Who are you to suggest that you know more than the doctors who gave Trevor his clearance to play?  On what basis can you substantiate your claim that he needs another seven months to recover?  On what medical authority can you state that another seven months would be of any help whatsoever?

 

[The Lens]

I have no medical background, in fact since I have a degree from the College of Communication you could say I barely have a bachelors...BUT I do think common sense would tell you that erroring on the side of caution isn't a bad thing.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I have no medical background, in fact since I have a degree from the College of Communication you could say I barely have a bachelors...BUT I do think common sense would tell you that erroring on the side of caution isn't a bad thing.

I don't disagree that sometimes caution is needed... but seriously, what are the coaches supposed to do?

The kid (from all reports) worked his butt off to come back and play this season.

Is Crean now supposed to tell him "No, you can't play, even though the doctors cleared you and you are good enough to earn minutes?"

If the kid doesn't plan on sticking around for 5 years (for whatever the reason), then why shouldn't the coaches respect his wishes and allow him a shot to earn minutes this season?

[Pardner]

By all reports...the docs have cleared him medically.  He has worked hard on the rehab to the point where he has strengthened the knee.  He was insistent he wants to play NOW.  TM is excited to lace on the shoes with his friends as we make our run.  The team has a need for him.  If TC said "no", what then?  Might TM want to transfer back home?  Put yourselves in TM's shoes. 

There is almost a good half season potentially to play.  We have a 4/5 in Ooze.  A 4 in Burke.  A 3/4 in Trend who actually doesn't fit any mold with his freakish athletic ability.  And another 4/5 in TM with some raw but rare match-up abilities--especially on D.  Meanwhile, we have lost to UL, ND and UCONN because of their backlines.

With SC coming back from knee surgery in just a few weeks, and others like Padgett and Palacios returning quickly, this really isn't out of the norm today.  The key question then is it better for TM's development to play the fifth year?  Simply put, the kid is on record saying he didn't want to do that no matter what we may think. 

The kid looked rusty against Pitt, but held his own.  Now we have a couple of lower tier BE games coming up where he can get some extended PT.  It is also a time for TC to try out some backline rotations.  This move only makes our team stronger.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The only way playing him makes sense is if we're 90+% sure that he's not interested in a fifth year.  If that is the case, then why not play him?  I would rather they kept him red-shirted so they could get four full seasons out of him, but I'm sure they had good reasons to do what they did.

I think we're 100% sure...Trevor said it himself.  He's not going to school for 5 years....his words.

[79Warrior]

.......escapes me.

Very simple...Trevor said it himself last night.  He's not staying for 5 years so he wants to get it going now.  Nothing to do with wisdom, it's a simple desire to get on with his playing.

I agree with this, but I think the poster is questioning the wisdom of playing him in last night's game.  Having only practiced with the team since Wednesday, it's questionable.  However, I could understand if it was Crean's way of rewarding him for the drive and hard work it took him to rejoin the team after what should have been a season ending injury.  And being such a lopsided game probably made it easier.

Who said he has only practiced since Wednesday?

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

I have no medical background, in fact since I have a degree from the College of Communication you could say I barely have a bachelors...BUT I do think common sense would tell you that erroring on the side of caution isn't a bad thing.

Perhaps this was the action that erred on the side of caution. The quotes mention Mbakwe participating in individual drills with the team for some time to get medical clearance. It would have been reckless to play him based off of that. It seemed they took the cautious route and pragmatic route in having him complete those drills and then practice before clearing him to play. Thus, erring on the side of caution.

I'm reading the 3 or 4 people who are constantly questioning this (they happen to be the same 3 or 4 who tend to stray towards the negative on every situation but I'm trying to reserve passing judgement) and I just don't get it. Are you worried because of Mbakwe's health? Are you worried because it seems desperate? Are you worried because you didn't see this coming? Are you worried because he may not live up to your expectations?

We laughed when Wisconsin redshirted Brian Butch and then said it was the player's decision. Now, we have a player who was redshirting (due to injury and not simply to get stronger like Butch or our own Matt Mortensen) and decided to come out of it on his own and the coach is getting slammed for the decision. So which is it? Does the player have autonomous reign over his decision to redshirt or is the coach forcing the redshirt?

[Nukem2]

FWIW, I did watch Mbakwe participate in the pre-game warmups/drills (35 minutes or so) prior to the Lousville home game on 2/4.  Obviously he was doing more than individual drills for a while...?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I have no medical background, in fact since I have a degree from the College of Communication you could say I barely have a bachelors...BUT I do think common sense would tell you that erroring on the side of caution isn't a bad thing.

Perhaps this was the action that erred on the side of caution. The quotes mention Mbakwe participating in individual drills with the team for some time to get medical clearance. It would have been reckless to play him based off of that. It seemed they took the cautious route and pragmatic route in having him complete those drills and then practice before clearing him to play. Thus, erring on the side of caution.

I'm reading the 3 or 4 people who are constantly questioning this (they happen to be the same 3 or 4 who tend to stray towards the negative on every situation but I'm trying to reserve passing judgement) and I just don't get it. Are you worried because of Mbakwe's health? Are you worried because it seems desperate? Are you worried because you didn't see this coming? Are you worried because he may not live up to your expectations?

We laughed when Wisconsin redshirted Brian Butch and then said it was the player's decision. Now, we have a player who was redshirting (due to injury and not simply to get stronger like Butch or our own Matt Mortensen) and decided to come out of it on his own and the coach is getting slammed for the decision. So which is it? Does the player have autonomous reign over his decision to redshirt or is the coach forcing the redshirt?

I completely agree... but I'm afraid we aren't going to hear from any of the doubters on this topic until something bad happens with Trevor (either performance or injury).

Then this board will blow up with "I told you so's"... even though those posters haven't said anything in response to the idea that Trevor himself is the one who wanted to remove his redshirt and play, not Crean.

Somehow, somewhere, somebody is going to blame the head coach if something goes awry with Trevor's return.

It won't be the doctor's fault. It won't be Trevor's fault. It will be Crean's fault for even playing him 

[augoman]

I guess I understand that TC must consider the player's wishes, but when all is said and done, he is the coach, the decision is HIS to make.  Now, having said that, I further understand you can't run a successful team with descention on it, and ignoring a player's desires would lead to a lot of unhappy people.  Nevertheless, I am sure Butch didn't want to sit out a year, bulking up, changing his style of play, learning to bang the boards-in short- becoming the type of player BoBo wanted him to be, not the type of player he was-yet he stayed, he bulked, he's their one 'rivals top 25 player'.  The point of the post wasn't 'did the doctors clear Mbakwe', rather, I was hoping to find some wisdom in playing him.  Sounds like TC played him because Mbakwe told him to.

[muarmy81]

I personally didn't like this decision when I first heard about it because, selfishly, I wanted to have Trevor for 4 FULL years and I figured he'd be that much more of a monster having practiced and learned the college system for a year.  But looking at it now you can't fault the kid wanting to play and the more I think about it you gotta believe that adding somebody, almost anybody, to our array of post players would help.  It's nice to see ooze play well but Burke has faded hard and Trend is a great energy player but just not physical enough to pound with bigger bodies like I'm sure 240 lb Trevor can.  In the end, I think it'll take awhile for Trevor to get into his own rythm during the games but I do think he'll add value for our tournament run.

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

I guess I understand that TC must consider the player's wishes, but when all is said and done, he is the coach, the decision is HIS to make.  Now, having said that, I further understand you can't run a successful team with descention on it, and ignoring a player's desires would lead to a lot of unhappy people.  Nevertheless, I am sure Butch didn't want to sit out a year, bulking up, changing his style of play, learning to bang the boards-in short- becoming the type of player BoBo wanted him to be, not the type of player he was-yet he stayed, he bulked, he's their one 'rivals top 25 player'.  The point of the post wasn't 'did the doctors clear Mbakwe', rather, I was hoping to find some wisdom in playing him.  Sounds like TC played him because Mbakwe told him to.

The problem people are having has to do with the announcements then the actually actions that have taken place. Had MU announced back on November 1 that Mbakwe was to have surgery and they hoped to have him back before the end of the season and if not he would redshirt there would be no issue. Rather, Marquette announced that Mbakwe would take a redshirt season and prepare for 08-09 whereas we learned Saturday from the quotes of both Mbakwe and Crean that the prevailing thought within the program was that Mbakwe was indeed going to be back this season if his rehab progressed well. It's simply a matter of MU dropping the ball in the way they announced what was going to take place.

As for Mbakwe actually playing, I'm 50/50. I understand the perspective that giving him a month of games to get into game shape and letting him play in a NCAA setting will only be beneficial for TM as his career progresses. Adding to that, we have seen over the last 8-10 games that Blackledge is best as a 5-7 minute spot guy and Burke has completely lost his place. On the nights when Barro is missing lay-ups and mishandling passes we need another body to play and Mbakwe fits that.

OTOH, I understand that you let the team play as they are this season since they're 22 games into it. I think they've learned to play with the shortcomings but I fear they've also learned that they need to play a perfect game to beat a team like Louisville. That last part is the worst and perhaps the reason why Mbakwe has found his way back into the fold.

[Pakuni]

Nevertheless, I am sure Butch didn't want to sit out a year, bulking up, changing his style of play, learning to bang the boards-in short- becoming the type of player BoBo wanted him to be, not the type of player he was-yet he stayed, he bulked, he's their one 'rivals top 25 player'. 

Actually, redshirting was Butch's decision. Although I'm sure Ryan and the rest of the staff had a say, it was something Butch choose to do, not something forced upon him.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/bigten/2007-01-08-wisconsin-butch_x.htm

The anonymous hostile e-mails were bad enough. The anonymous phone callers telling Brian Butch he was a failure really crossed the line.
But Butch remained undaunted about his decision to redshirt the 2003-04 season, his freshman year at Wisconsin, even though some of the Wisconsin faithful couldn't stomach the idea of a 6-11 McDonald's All-American sitting out.

He chose to redshirt because he was rail thin at 185 pounds and lacked the strength to bang his body against other big men in the Big Ten. Overzealous fans looking for immediate results couldn't accept his logic.

[augoman]

based on your quote, Pakuni, you're right..., but the facts are complicated by Butch being forced to play other than his natural position.  he was not a 'banger', and I believe he didn't want to be- he was told by staff how he would be used and that he was not ready for that.  IMO he wanted to play ala Steve Novak, taking advantage of his tremendous ability to shoot 3's, and to shoot them over defenders.

[21Jumpstreet]

Can Trevor play any minutes and still redshirt?  Is there a maximum?  Maybe this is a test for him, and if he doesn't feel perfect he can still take the redshirt.  It seems to me that it would be a total waste to put him out there for the final month only to see him reinjure himself.  As a fan it was great to see him out there, and as a realist I am not sure it was the right move.

[🏀]

Can Trevor play any minutes and still redshirt?  Is there a maximum?  Maybe this is a test for him, and if he doesn't feel perfect he can still take the redshirt.  It seems to me that it would be a total waste to put him out there for the final month only to see him reinjure himself.  As a fan it was great to see him out there, and as a realist I am not sure it was the right move.

No, he played. His redshirt is gone.

[Ready2Fly]

The wisdom lies in the fact that this is our year to make some noise in the tournament, since it's most likely James' last year.  The one thing we are lacking is a big who can defend, rebound, and catch a dish off from James and stuff it.  Based on the preseason scrimmages, these are all things that Mbakwe brings to the table.  Blackledge and Burke just ain't gonna cut it if we hope to make the second weekend.  If indeed Mbakwe is fully healthy (he wouldn't be medically cleared if he wasn't), this is a no-brainer.

[21Jumpstreet]

Thanks

[NotAnAlum]

Let me take this another direction.  Regardless of how much this helps or doesn't help our situation this year having TM play these last games which are magnified because they are at the end of the year (BE tourne, NCAA tourne etc) is certainly going to help his position next year.  Keep in mind that this year we lose Ooze, Blackledge and Fitz.  So the ONLY returning post player this team would have, for that matter the only returning player over 6'6", would be Burke.  That should make anybody stop and think twice.  It could be a huge advantage in next years pre conference season to start a somewhat seasoned TM at the 5 rather than relying on either a red shirt freshman or true freshman to be our center.  I'll take my chances on our post depth 4 years from now when that time comes.  It certainly can't be any worse than it is now.   

[Pago Warrior]

Exactly, notanalum.

It will be a bonus to the team if he can contribute significantly this year.
The greater payoff to him and the team will be felt most next year with the experience he gets from playing the remaing games in this season.

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

based on your quote, Pakuni, you're right..., but the facts are complicated by Butch being forced to play other than his natural position.  he was not a 'banger', and I believe he didn't want to be- he was told by staff how he would be used and that he was not ready for that.  IMO he wanted to play ala Steve Novak, taking advantage of his tremendous ability to shoot 3's, and to shoot them over defenders.

The facts aren't complicated by anything. You act as if the coach is the dictator of his banana republic and the player should have no input. Btw, not really sure you are right on Butch's "tremendous ability" to shoot 3-pointers.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Is everyone continuing to ignore the obvious....he said he doesn't want to be here for 5 years so redshirting him would have made ZERO sense.  He's not going to be here 5 years, so it's 4 years max and he wants to play now...he's cleared...let him play.

[WashDCWarrior]

Let me take this another direction.  Regardless of how much this helps or doesn't help our situation this year having TM play these last games which are magnified because they are at the end of the year (BE tourne, NCAA tourne etc) is certainly going to help his position next year.  Keep in mind that this year we lose Ooze, Blackledge and Fitz.  So the ONLY returning post player this team would have, for that matter the only returning player over 6'6", would be Burke.  That should make anybody stop and think twice.  It could be a huge advantage in next years pre conference season to start a somewhat seasoned TM at the 5 rather than relying on either a red shirt freshman or true freshman to be our center.  I'll take my chances on our post depth 4 years from now when that time comes.  It certainly can't be any worse than it is now.   

Patrick Hazel is 6'7.  I know he hasn't played any significant minutes this year, but a lot can happen between freshman and sophomore years.  Especially when a couple guys in front of you on the depth chart graduate.

[SpryTastik]

The kid wanted to play and there was a lot of hype about him at the beginning of the season, so why not?  For being in such a game in the heat of the Big East season with a lot to prove, Mbakwe didn't play terribly, though it could have been better.  Perhaps tonight at St. John's will be his turn-around game.

On a side note, maybe Crean called up Dixon earlier that day and said, "If you're bringing back Fields, then I'm bringing back Mbakwe, so =P"  Sounds pretty good to me!