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Author Topic: Omax  (Read 2786 times)

MU82

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Re: Omax
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2022, 01:04:13 PM »
There were a few, but I thought the hubub was that we are over signed for next year, but not to worry because a player already told Shaka he was going pro after this year.  I think many assumed that was OMax - it may not have been?

Good point.

Not saying Omax might leave, but another player for sure is leaving, that player got over recruited, probably leave in spring.

Yes, and who knows ... if Shaka wants to bring in a transfer, there could be more than one who gets Shaka'd, Rattled and Rolled.
"We have a severe problem in American life today called the assault on truth." -- Pulitzer Prize winning New Yorker editor David Remnick

BCHoopster

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Re: Omax
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2022, 01:12:44 PM »
There were few, if any, that were more bullish on Omax coming into the season than I was, and time will tell. IMO, he is the key to this team having success in BE play and am not jumping off the train. My optimism stemmed from the fact that when he slowed things down last year, he showed a great deal of promise. If he can start hitting some shots maybe things slow down for him.

That being said, I will not argue with anyone for criticism thrown his way thus far this season. He has been wildly inconsistent and reckless with the ball. In addition, he really has not shown any flashes, in real games, of being a multi offensive threat. At this point, I am disappointed but believe much better days are ahead for Omax.

As for my comment on him being the next guy to leave early for the NBA, I still believe that he is a great athlete, potential to be an elite defender and he has offensive skills when he plays under control. I think he is light years beyond where Cain was a sophmore and a much more polished basketball player.

Goose, I tried to answer you but not techie, if you want to email me at Bobc44@aol.com that would be fine, tried answering and it came right back at me. Boone as
well, thanks.

Pakuni

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Re: Omax
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2022, 01:19:44 PM »
Yep, I'm constantly amazed how many people think college production is what matters when projecting pro players. What matters is body type and defense. Offense is a distant third.

Not really. You're right about NBA teams caring mostly about the upside that comes with size and athleticism (not so much body type), but not defense vs offense.
NBA teams would much, much rather draft a guy with a high offensive ceiling and hope to teach him defense, than a defensive player with limited offense, and think they can teach him how to shoot/score. Offense is a far more instinctual/natural ability than defense.
It's why guys like Jimmer Fredette go ahead of Kawhi Leonard, and Marshan Brooks goes ahead of Jimmy Butler.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2022, 01:45:14 PM by Pakuni »

tower912

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Re: Omax
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2022, 01:27:29 PM »


Yes, and who knows ... if Shaka wants to bring in a transfer, there could be more than one who gets Shaka'd, Rattled and Rolled.
Shaka and awed (odd) man out.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball

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Re: Omax
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2022, 02:03:47 PM »
Not really. You're right about NBA teams caring mostly about the upside that comes with size and athleticism (not so much body type), but not defense vs offense.
NBA teams would much, much rather draft a guy with a high offensive ceiling and hope to teach him defense, than a defensive player with limited offense, and think they can teach him how to shoot/score. Offense is a far more instinctual/natural ability than defense.
It's why guys like Jimmer Fredette go ahead of Kawhi Leonard, and Marshan Brooks goes ahead of Jimmy Butler.

You have it backwards my man. NBA is all about who you can guard and they bank on being able to teach you offense. Jimmy Butler was only drafted because of his defense. While we all love JFB, his senior year he didn't make an All-Big East team despite there being three teams back then. He was an honorable mention. He wasn't considered to be one of the top 16 players in his conference but he was selected 30th in the NBA draft because teams saw the size/athleticism (probably a better descriptor than what I used) and the defensive ability.
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The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Goose

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Re: Omax
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2022, 02:13:39 PM »
TAMU

If you look at Omax vs. Cain/Juan at this point of their careers it is Omax in a landslide. He might not ever be the college player I hope he becomes, but his body, speed and D is going to help him earn a living playing basketball.

Pakuni

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Re: Omax
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2022, 02:16:20 PM »
You have it backwards my man. NBA is all about who you can guard and they bank on being able to teach you offense. Jimmy Butler was only drafted because of his defense. While we all love JFB, his senior year he didn't make an All-Big East team despite there being three teams back then. He was an honorable mention. He wasn't considered to be one of the top 16 players in his conference but he was selected 30th in the NBA draft because teams saw the size/athleticism (probably a better descriptor than what I used) and the defensive ability.

So Marhsan Broooks went ahead of Jimmy in that draft because he projected better defensively?
Jimmer Fredette was a top 10 pick because of his defense?
If teams prioritized defense, Jimmy would have gone much higher than 30th. Teams knew he had the potential to be a defensive stopper in the NBA, but had serious questions about his offensive upside. Thus, he squeaked into the first round, whereas an all-offense, no defense guy like Jimmer was a lottery pick.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Omax
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2022, 02:25:07 PM »
What league would that be?

Where is Bailey playing? Probably that league
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TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball

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Re: Omax
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2022, 02:41:48 PM »
So Marhsan Broooks went ahead of Jimmy in that draft because he projected better defensively?
Jimmer Fredette was a top 10 pick because of his defense?
If teams prioritized defense, Jimmy would have gone much higher than 30th. Teams knew he had the potential to be a defensive stopper in the NBA, but had serious questions about his offensive upside. Thus, he squeaked into the first round, whereas an all-offense, no defense guy like Jimmer was a lottery pick.

I didn't say offense wasn't considered, I said it was a distant 3rd to size/athleticism and defense. You are making a strawman.  Jimmer's offense was elite plus he had PG skills so he was drafted higher. Marshon Brooks was a great defender in college and had the right size/build to be an NBA PG. Picking random players that you perceive as being bad on defense who got drafted doesn't help your argument.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Pakuni

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Re: Omax
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2022, 03:06:46 PM »
I didn't say offense wasn't considered, I said it was a distant 3rd to size/athleticism and defense. You are making a strawman.  Jimmer's offense was elite plus he had PG skills so he was drafted higher. Marshon Brooks was a great defender in college and had the right size/build to be an NBA PG. Picking random players that you perceive as being bad on defense who got drafted doesn't help your argument.

Last thing and we can agree to disagree.
1. I never claimed you said "offense doesn't matter" or anything close to that. The only straw man here is yours.
2. Jimmer did not have point guard skills. It's one of the reasons he flopped in the NBA.
3. Brooks never projected as a point guard in the NBA and was never viewed as a good (much less great) defender. Go read his pre-draft profiles (I supplied a couple below). None I found mentioned defense as a positive attribute, much less call him a great defender. In the pros, his defense was so bad his teammates made jokes about it.


"I watched him play extensively this season in person and on tape and I wonder if he's going to be able to get away with some of the things that he did at Providence, the way he monopolizes the ball, his shot selection, the tunnel-vision he shows, the bad body language, the lack of enthusiasm for playing defense"
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/marshon-brooks-6347/ ©DraftExpress

" Needs to put forth more intensity and effort on the defensive end …"

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/marshon-brooks/

And what his Nets teammates thought of his defense:
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/12wk1u/derons_face_when_asked_about_marshon_brooks/
https://www.netsdaily.com/2012/11/11/3630534/marshon-brooks-defense-subject-of-brooklyn-nets-jokes

We R Final Four

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Re: Omax
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2022, 03:11:08 PM »
You have it backwards my man. NBA is all about who you can guard and they bank on being able to teach you offense. Jimmy Butler was only drafted because of his defense. While we all love JFB, his senior year he didn't make an All-Big East team despite there being three teams back then. He was an honorable mention. He wasn't considered to be one of the top 16 players in his conference but he was selected 30th in the NBA draft because teams saw the size/athleticism (probably a better descriptor than what I used) and the defensive ability.
I think you know that all conference teams arent selected in the manner in which you are representing. The league’s 5th best pg in a particular season doesn’t usually make a team…..does that mean hes not even a top 20 player in the league? No.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2022, 03:14:00 PM by We R Final Four »

TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball

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Re: Omax
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2022, 03:18:02 PM »
Last thing and we can agree to disagree.
1. I never claimed you said "offense doesn't matter" or anything close to that. The only straw man here is yours.

The arguments you were making "Jimmer was drafted for his defense" imply that I said that offense doesn't matter. Of course Jimmer was drafted for his offense, he reached an offensive level few ever reach.

2. Jimmer did not have point guard skills. It's one of the reasons he flopped in the NBA.

He did in college. He averaged over 4 assists a game and the thought was that he could develop them in the pros. He couldn't.

3. Brooks never projected as a point guard in the NBA and was never viewed as a good (much less great) defender. Go read his pre-draft profiles (I supplied a couple below). None I found mentioned defense as a positive attribute, much less call him a great defender. In the pros, his defense was so bad his teammates made jokes about it.


"I watched him play extensively this season in person and on tape and I wonder if he's going to be able to get away with some of the things that he did at Providence, the way he monopolizes the ball, his shot selection, the tunnel-vision he shows, the bad body language, the lack of enthusiasm for playing defense"
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/marshon-brooks-6347/ ©DraftExpress

" Needs to put forth more intensity and effort on the defensive end …"

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/marshon-brooks/

And what his Nets teammates thought of his defense:
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/12wk1u/derons_face_when_asked_about_marshon_brooks/
https://www.netsdaily.com/2012/11/11/3630534/marshon-brooks-defense-subject-of-brooklyn-nets-jokes

Alright I'll give you that one. I clearly misremembered Brooks as a defender though I'll add that he had to play as de-facto PF for Providence because of how small they were. He didn't play PG in college but he did project as a PG in the pros, clearly it didn't work out for him.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

TAMU, the Wizard of MU Basketball

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Re: Omax
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2022, 03:25:34 PM »
I think you know that all conference teams arent selected in the manner in which you are representing. The league’s 5th best pg in a particular season doesn’t usually make a team…..does that mean hes not even a top 20 player in the league? No.

...That's not how those teams work. First team All-Big East that year was Kemba Walker, Austin Freeman, Ben Hansborough, Ashton Gibbs, Marshon Brooks, and Dwight Hardy, 6 guards. 2nd team was Preston Knowles, DJO, Brad Wanamaker, Rick Jackson, and Corey Fisher, 4 guards and a Forward. Third team was Chris Wright, Tim Abromaitis, Jeremy Hazell, Kris Joseph, and Corey Stokes, 3 guards and 2 forwards. So Jimmy was the 4th best forward but didn't make any of the All-Big East teams.

Those teams are based on one season of college production and heavily skew towards offensive stats. That's why I brought it up. Jimmy couldn't crack this top 16 list but because of his defensive ability he was draft 30th overall.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

4everwarriors

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Re: Omax
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2022, 06:47:38 PM »
Pretty sure Bailey's playin' in da League of Women's voters, hey?
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wadesworld

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Re: Omax
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2022, 07:16:14 PM »
There are certain guys who are elite defenders that have length and athleticism that get drafted because they have potential offensively (Sochan this year comes to mind). But by and large offensive skill set is way, way more important. Nobody was drafting Paolo or Zion 1 overall for their defensive abilities.
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Stretchdeltsig

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Re: Omax
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2022, 07:13:30 AM »
Omax plays like an octopus with lo g arms and legs spread out in different directions. This form works good for defense but terrible for offense.

Sultan Sultanberger

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Re: Omax
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2022, 07:21:11 AM »
Omax plays like an octopus with lo g arms and legs spread out in different directions. This form works good for defense but terrible for offense.

Why is that terrible for offense?
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ATL MU Warrior

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Re: Omax
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2022, 07:26:55 AM »
Why is that terrible for offense?
Everybody knows that octopuses suck at offense.

tower912

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Re: Omax
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2022, 07:33:45 AM »
The ball gets stuck instead of moving.
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MU82

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Re: Omax
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2022, 09:21:00 AM »
The ball gets stuck instead of moving.

Well yeah ... octopi have all those suction cups on their arms!
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21Jumpstreet

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Re: Omax
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2022, 09:22:38 AM »
Omax plays like an octopus with lo g arms and legs spread out in different directions. This form works good for defense but terrible for offense.

I think it also gives the impression that he is working hard and causing trouble. He does do both, but perhaps it’s also a bit out of control and wasted motion/energy.

Goose

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Re: Omax
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2022, 09:26:08 AM »
21Jump

I agree it looks like wasted energy to me as well. I am getting old, but I thought last year he definitely slowed down and looked more in control after the first 6-7 games. That is my hope for this year.

21Jumpstreet

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Re: Omax
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2022, 09:32:21 AM »
21Jump

I agree it looks like wasted energy to me as well. I am getting old, but I thought last year he definitely slowed down and looked more in control after the first 6-7 games. That is my hope for this year.

Goose

I agree and think he will settle in. I think he could be great if he uses his length to press the ball handler and first pass, but I think his flailing nature gets him off balance then he has to catch up. The catch up plays, hustle blocks from behind look great and are an indication of effort, but it could also be an indication that we are allowing ourselves to get beat. Defense is tough as we all know, everyone has to buy in. One guy presses the PG, one or two guys slide and rotate on the drive, and one guy ball watches which leads to a score. Gotta be dialed in every moment. We have the guys, go hard for 3 minutes, sub, go hard, sub, then settle in and wear them out.

Uncle Rico

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Re: Omax
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2022, 11:43:13 AM »
We have a foot of snow in this thread.  Hopefully, the new board the letter writers promised is right around the corner
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

rocky_warrior

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Re: Omax
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2022, 11:46:09 AM »
Newsie - knock it off.  Everyone else...WTF?  I'll get the snowplow out now...
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