6th Man

[Elonsmusk]

When you compare John Dawson to Magic Johnson, anything is possible.

Haha.  Sultan trying to make the same joke that has been made 100s of times here.  Time for some new material.  But, you are a prodigious user of the search function.  Please place the quote from the past where I  said anything like John Dawson was as good as Magic Johnson.  Saying a guy makes some Magic Johnson like passes - as in no look passes/creative passing doesn't mean one is saying he'll be as good, etc.

By the way, I was early here to say Jamal Cain had NBA potential/prospects and the same handful of Projos ridiculed that projection.

[The Sultan]

As you like to say Wades:  Chase is a "dude."  Markus was a prolific scorer, marginal (at best) defender, and quite frankly, pretty selfish. 

It continues to baffle me that people will continue to rip on the most accomplished player we have had around here in awhile. Most fanbases would trip over themselves to laud a guy who put in four years for their program, ended as its leading scorer and was a consensus all-American their senior year.  And did so while being an absolutely wonderful representative of the school.

But our fanbase labels such a guy as "selfish" and proclaims that a freshman who has played a grand total of 21 minutes is a better player.

Not to mention that this type of comparison is horribly unfair to Chase Ross. Let the guy play. If he ends up a better player, that would be wonderful. But if he doesn't, I hope he makes his mark. Making such predictions now is beyond silly.

[UWW2MU]

The steal was nice, but I'll disagree that Jop's defense looked better. He was out of position a couple of times last night. Once Kam literally had to push him into position because he had picked up the wrong man in transition. But like you said earlier in your post, one game sample size. Doesn't mean he hasn't improved, I just don't think he showed it last night.

Jop definitely still got out of position, but last year it felt like every possession and he looked absolutely lost.  This year seemed more confident and only got out of position at times.   At least to my very untrained eye.

[CountryRoads]

It continues to baffle me that people will continue to rip on the most accomplished player we have had around here in awhile. Most fanbases would trip over themselves to laud a guy who put in four years for their program, ended as its leading scorer and was a consensus all-American their senior year.  And did so while being an absolutely wonderful representative of the school.

I have no problem with Howard as a person or player but there is some nuance to this rhetoric. Some would argue that the system that allowed for his amazing individual accomplishments was actually a net negative  for the program overall.

[Elonsmusk]

It continues to baffle me that people will continue to rip on the most accomplished player we have had around here in awhile. Most fanbases would trip over themselves to laud a guy who put in four years for their program, ended as its leading scorer and was a consensus all-American their senior year.  And did so while being an absolutely wonderful representative of the school.

But our fanbase labels such a guy as "selfish" and proclaims that a freshman who has played a grand total of 21 minutes is a better player.

Not to mention that this type of comparison is horribly unfair to Chase Ross. Let the guy play. If he ends up a better player, that would be wonderful. But if he doesn't, I hope he makes his mark. Making such predictions now is beyond silly.

Ahh..I didn't compare Chase to Markus.  Compared him to Jerel/Wes, as the best Freshman prospect.  Markus was a fantastic scorer. Prolific.  But, you'd think as a two-time All-American and the program's leading scorer - he'd have been able to stick on an NBA roster if he was such an amazing prospect.  I'm projecting out to the NBA...

Btw - Predictions are fun to make. We all speculate a lot here.  It's part of scooping.  But, thanks for being the no fun police for Scoop Sultan! 

[wadesworld]

Ahh..I didn't compare Chase to Markus.  Compared him to Jerel/Wes, as the best Freshman prospect.  Markus was a fantastic scorer. Prolific.  But, you'd think as a two-time All-American and the program's leading scorer - he'd have been able to stick on an NBA roster if he was such an amazing prospect.  I'm projecting out to the NBA...

Btw - Predictions are fun to make. We all speculate a lot here.  It's part of scooping.  But, thanks for being the no fun police for Scoop Sultan!

I forgot how much NBA success Jerel McNeal had.  All 36 career minutes.  Markus only had 10x that.

[Galway Eagle]

Ahh..I didn't compare Chase to Markus.  Compared him to Jerel/Wes, as the best Freshman prospect.  Markus was a fantastic scorer. Prolific.  But, you'd think as a two-time All-American and the program's leading scorer - he'd have been able to stick on an NBA roster if he was such an amazing prospect.  I'm projecting out to the NBA...

Btw - Predictions are fun to make. We all speculate a lot here.  It's part of scooping.  But, thanks for being the no fun police for Scoop Sultan!

I don't have a dog in this fight but maybe look at it objectively and think "oh at 5'10" (generously) maybe there's a reason a scorer like him played four years as opposed to leaving as a sophomore or junior"

I'd say playing 1.5 NBA seasons is an accomplishment for a guy who's short enough to lie about his height on tinder

[Shooter McGavin]

It continues to baffle me that people will continue to rip on the most accomplished player we have had around here in awhile. Most fanbases would trip over themselves to laud a guy who put in four years for their program, ended as its leading scorer and was a consensus all-American their senior year.  And did so while being an absolutely wonderful representative of the school.

But our fanbase labels such a guy as "selfish" and proclaims that a freshman who has played a grand total of 21 minutes is a better player.

Not to mention that this type of comparison is horribly unfair to Chase Ross. Let the guy play. If he ends up a better player, that would be wonderful. But if he doesn't, I hope he makes his mark. Making such predictions now is beyond silly.

I think the Howard haters are less than 1% of the hardcore fan base.  Most recognize that he was a special scoring guard who gave his all for Marquette, is the MU scoring leader by far and a two time all American.   

If we start having NCAA tournament success again, the bitterness toward the Wojo era will fade.  When it does even the less than 1% will give him his due.  Wojo was the problem, not Markus.   His recruiting/retention and coaching errors submarined what should have been undeniably, inarguably great MU career.  Despite our lack of post season success, I believe he made four years of the Wojo era more palatable than it would have been otherwise.

[BrewCity83]

Chase Ross looks like he's going to be a BEAST!!

Having said that, he's never going to shoot like Markus Howard.  Shooters like Markus are few and far between.

But Ross has an exceptional physicality that will already play well in the Big East.  Can't wait to watch him develop into a complete player.

[The Sultan]

I have no problem with Howard as a person or player but there is some nuance to this rhetoric. Some would argue that the system that allowed for his amazing individual accomplishments was actually a net negative  for the program overall.

And that's Howard's fault how?

[The Sultan]

Ahh..I didn't compare Chase to Markus.  Compared him to Jerel/Wes, as the best Freshman prospect.  Markus was a fantastic scorer. Prolific.  But, you'd think as a two-time All-American and the program's leading scorer - he'd have been able to stick on an NBA roster if he was such an amazing prospect.  I'm projecting out to the NBA...

Btw - Predictions are fun to make. We all speculate a lot here.  It's part of scooping.  But, thanks for being the no fun police for Scoop Sultan! 

You should try being less sensitive for once.

[Goose]

Shooter

As you know, I was not a Howard or Wojo guy, but I hold no bad feelings towards Howard. He was not might type of player, but that is my preference. He was a very accomplished scorer and has a big place in MU history. Truthfully, I am 100% looking forward and looking forward to watching the Shaka era.

At this point, I have zero idea if any one guy is going to be an all time great, but I think the foundation is being built for long term success. All I care about is program success and if a guy emerges as a great player, all the better.

[Uncle Rico]

Shooter

As you know, I was not a Howard or Wojo guy, but I hold no bad feelings towards Howard. He was not might type of player, but that is my preference. He was a very accomplished scorer and has a big place in MU history. Truthfully, I am 100% looking forward and looking forward to watching the Shaka era.

At this point, I have zero idea if any one guy is going to be an all time great, but I think the foundation is being built for long term success. All I care about is program success and if a guy emerges as a great player, all the better.

This x 1000

Can there be Threads about current players and team not derailed by the same stupid arguments and even stupider comparisons to former players?

[The Sultan]

Shooter

As you know, I was not a Howard or Wojo guy, but I hold no bad feelings towards Howard. He was not might type of player, but that is my preference. He was a very accomplished scorer and has a big place in MU history. Truthfully, I am 100% looking forward and looking forward to watching the Shaka era.

At this point, I have zero idea if any one guy is going to be an all time great, but I think the foundation is being built for long term success. All I care about is program success and if a guy emerges as a great player, all the better.

Yep yep

[Shooter McGavin]

Agreed Goose.

[Elonsmusk]

You should try being less sensitive for once.

You and Wades are the two getting all sensitive about my take on Chase Ross and thinking it is or was a diss of Markus.  It wasn't. I didn't and don't "hate" Markus.  He was a prolific scorer and good kid - other than being selfish on the basketball court - yet that was exacerbated by his clueless Head Coach imploring him to "shoot more, and the ultimate green light."

Try harder Sultan.

[Elonsmusk]

This x 1000

Can there be Threads about current players and team not derailed by the same stupid arguments and even stupider comparisons to former players?

Good call.  Take it up with Wades and Sultan for getting all sensitive and bringing Markus into the discussion.

[The Sultan]

You and Wades are the two getting all sensitive about my take on Chase Ross and thinking it is or was a diss of Markus.  It wasn't. I didn't and don't "hate" Markus.  He was a prolific scorer and good kid - other than being selfish on the basketball court - yet that was exacerbated by his clueless Head Coach imploring him to "shoot more, and the ultimate green light."

Try harder Sultan.

Hey aside from being all sensitive about any criticism, some reading comprehension should probably do you some good. I never claimed you hate Markus, no matter if you put the word in quotes or not.

So excuse me for not taking your advice seriously.

[We R Final Four]

It had better be Jop or we are in for a long season.

Chase and Sean will be nice surprises, but we need some big scoring games from Jop to win games this year.

[MU82]

Ahh..I didn't compare Chase to Markus.  Compared him to Jerel/Wes, as the best Freshman prospect.  Markus was a fantastic scorer. Prolific.  But, you'd think as a two-time All-American and the program's leading scorer - he'd have been able to stick on an NBA roster if he was such an amazing prospect.  I'm projecting out to the NBA...

So, in the Ners world, a guy has to have stuck on an NBA roster to have been a great prospect as a college freshman?

Markus had a freakin' amazing freshman year. The guy shot 56% from 3 and carried us down the stretch, all within the flow of an offense that had seven guys who averaged between 8 and 13 ppg.

The vast majority of Marquette fans would be over the moon if any of this season's freshmen play their role as well as Markus did and contribute as much to this team as Markus did to that fun-to-watch, tourney-bound 2016-17 Marquette team.

And if Shaka lands a recruit with the exact same skill set that Markus had coming out of high school -- when he was a 4-star who would have been a 5-star had he not opted to graduate as a 17-year-old -- you would be trumpeting it as an incredible recruiting get. And you'd be right.

Chase Ross played very effectively in his 22-minute stint against Radford. He seems to have all the tools to excel, and I'll be looking forward to seeing how he does against better competition. (And BTW, you're not the only one who has been bullish on him. Several Scoopers were talking glowingly about him last week, and he's received a ton of praise since the game.)

Maybe he'll become the 6th man -- to get back to what this thread is about -- or maybe he'll even break into the starting lineup. Or maybe not. We'll see!

[Elonsmusk]

So, in the Ners world, a guy has to have stuck on an NBA roster to have been a great prospect as a college freshman?

Markus had a freakin' amazing freshman year. The guy shot 56% from 3 and carried us down the stretch, all within the flow of an offense that had seven guys who averaged between 8 and 13 ppg.

The vast majority of Marquette fans would be over the moon if any of this season's freshmen play their role as well as Markus did and contribute as much to this team as Markus did to that fun-to-watch, tourney-bound 2016-17 Marquette team.

And if Shaka lands a recruit with the exact same skill set that Markus had coming out of high school -- when he was a 4-star who would have been a 5-star had he not opted to graduate as a 17-year-old -- you would be trumpeting it as an incredible recruiting get. And you'd be right.

Chase Ross played very effectively in his 22-minute stint against Radford. He seems to have all the tools to excel, and I'll be looking forward to seeing how he does against better competition. (And BTW, you're not the only one who has been bullish on him. Several Scoopers were talking glowingly about him last week, and he's received a ton of praise since the game.)

Maybe he'll become the 6th man -- to get back to what this thread is about -- or maybe he'll even break into the starting lineup. Or maybe not. We'll see!

Great post.  Markus was a great guard.  I'm excited to see a return of the Buzz-like, physical guards, and thus Chase Ross and Sean Jones.  I'm equally excited to see a return to good team basketball.  Have a great night!

[Newsdreams]

It continues to baffle me that people will continue to rip on the most accomplished player we have had around here in awhile. Most fanbases would trip over themselves to laud a guy who put in four years for their program, ended as its leading scorer and was a consensus all-American their senior year.  And did so while being an absolutely wonderful representative of the school.

But our fanbase labels such a guy as "selfish" and proclaims that a freshman who has played a grand total of 21 minutes is a better player.

Not to mention that this type of comparison is horribly unfair to Chase Ross. Let the guy play. If he ends up a better player, that would be wonderful. But if he doesn't, I hope he makes his mark. Making such predictions now is beyond silly.

If he was a traditional it would have been fine

[tower912]

Markus was a generational talent.  An all time scorer.  A multi-year All American.    A leader and a trailblazer for mental health awareness for student athletes. He should be on MU's Mount Rushmore by any objective measure.

It was his unfortunate fate to be so tightly linked to an unsuccessful coach.    Because of that association, some seize on and even seek reasons to dislike him.  It will take a few more years for him to get the appreciation he deserves.

The NBA didn't like him because he is 5'10.

[VanderBlueFanClub]

Ahh..I didn't compare Chase to Markus.  Compared him to Jerel/Wes, as the best Freshman prospect.  Markus was a fantastic scorer. Prolific.  But, you'd think as a two-time All-American and the program's leading scorer - he'd have been able to stick on an NBA roster if he was such an amazing prospect.  I'm projecting out to the NBA...

Btw - Predictions are fun to make. We all speculate a lot here.  It's part of scooping.  But, thanks for being the no fun police for Scoop Sultan!

Jimmer, Morrison, Markus. 3 players went off night after night but couldn't play in the NBA. Just cause you can score in College doesn't mean anything in the NBA.

[tower912]

Yup.  And short guys struggle in the NBA, too.