2022-23 NBA Thread

[Uncle Rico]

Anybody who thinks there is a lack of D now compared to the 1980s didn't watch a lot of basketball in the 1980s.

Well, back in my day you could clothesline a dude and not get called for a foul

[Uncle Rico]

ben simmons seems to be severely over-rated, not very good or rusty and not a good fit with the nets.  surely not worth the $35 million/year contract

Dynamite drop, Montee

[4everwarriors]

ben simmons seems to be severely over-rated, not very good or rusty and not a good fit with the nets.  surely not worth the $35 million/year contract

Kendall kicked his ass to da curb years ago. Maybe Brooklyn should due da same, hey?

[Hards Alumni]

I was thinking the same thing about the top players (add Embid to the list at #5, and he's from Cameroon). This was Stern's vision, to make the NBA a truly worldwide league. I don't think the game is better today than it was in the 80s (too many threes and a lack of D), but the skill and overall athleticism are better.

Lol lack of D.

Why not just say that you don't watch the NBA?

[tower912]

Other than the Pistons, defense wasn't emphasized until the playoffs.   After the Pistons' run, the early to mid 90's saw the real uptick in physicality and playoff games finishing in the 70's.

[The Sultan]

Other than the Pistons, defense wasn't emphasized until the playoffs.   After the Pistons' run, the early to mid 90's saw the real uptick in physicality and playoff games finishing in the 70's.

Yeah but I struggle to call that "good defense" like now. Freedom of movement is a thing now.

[BM1090]

Lakers are 0-4 against the spread and 0-4 on the year.

Some good value in taking them vs Minny tonight.

Lakers and Magic would be my two best plays if I were gambling tonight.

[forgetful]

Yeah but I struggle to call that "good defense" like now. Freedom of movement is a thing now.

1. But that is what a lot of us call good defense. There used to be a lot more physicality both on ball (hand-checks/steering), and off ball. It was part of the game for a long time, and removed for "freedom of movement" to create a more exciting and higher scoring game.

2. It might be that I don't remember it much, because you couldn't watch as many regular season games (only 2-3 channels) in the 80's, so much of what I remember is playoffs. But there is a lot more just standing and doing nothing, not even trying to get back on D, than I remember.

The latter could also be, because I've watched the Lakers a bunch this year and man, is there no effort on D at all by several of them.

[Billy Hoyle]

Ah yes, spoken from experience.  Remembers watching the game in the 80s, but too young to remember MU as the Warriors.

MU wasn't a thing to me until I applied after the name had been changed. College Basketball was Michigan and the Fab Five for me as a kid, so why would I have known about MU as Warriors? Now, the Bad Boys Pistons, that started in the mid 80s

And then the 90's Knicks and 2004 Pistons for real defense.

[wadesworld]

MU wasn't a thing to me until I applied after the name had been changed, why would I? Now, the Bad Boys Pistons....

And then the 90's Knicks and 2004 Pistons.

Lol come on man.  I never even considered applying to St. John's or Syracuse but I remember clear as day when they were the Orangemen and the Redmen.

You purchased your first car in 1992 but hadn't even applied to college until after Marquette changed their name to Golden Eagles in May of 1994?  Did you buy your first vehicle at 12?

1982 Oldsmobile Fiernza. A white hatchback. 50,000 miles. Purchased in 1992 for $2000.

You get so caught in your own lies that you then try to twist yourself in pretzels and it's hilarious.

[JWags85]

1. But that is what a lot of us call good defense. There used to be a lot more physicality both on ball (hand-checks/steering), and off ball. It was part of the game for a long time, and removed for "freedom of movement" to create a more exciting and higher scoring game.

2. It might be that I don't remember it much, because you couldn't watch as many regular season games (only 2-3 channels) in the 80's, so much of what I remember is playoffs. But there is a lot more just standing and doing nothing, not even trying to get back on D, than I remember.

The latter could also be, because I've watched the Lakers a bunch this year and man, is there no effort on D at all by several of them.

The "physicality" removed added little to the game, IMO.  You want to watch body checks and clogged lanes with low scoring, watch mediocre HS basketball.   It doesn't even have to be run and gun 130 points a game Warriors offense, any good motion offense, even a Princeton style offense by teams that don't score a ton of points, is negatively impacted by hand checking and grabbing and "bodying" up people.

That being removed, "good" defense looks different.  Why waste the energy getting 18 inches from your man when they are athletic enough to slip by you on a cut, when you can understand spacing and passing lanes and intercept passes or deflect/angle in space.

I'm not accusing you of this, but some people that watched chest to chest defense in the 70s/80s can't fathom how you play good defense when you aren't running around constantly or in somebody's grill for 48 min.

[rocket surgeon]

Lakers and Magic would be my two best plays if I were gambling tonight.

i'm going with a lot of unders

[Hards Alumni]

The "physicality" removed added little to the game, IMO.  You want to watch body checks and clogged lanes with low scoring, watch mediocre HS basketball.   It doesn't even have to be run and gun 130 points a game Warriors offense, any good motion offense, even a Princeton style offense by teams that don't score a ton of points, is negatively impacted by hand checking and grabbing and "bodying" up people.

That being removed, "good" defense looks different.  Why waste the energy getting 18 inches from your man when they are athletic enough to slip by you on a cut, when you can understand spacing and passing lanes and intercept passes or deflect/angle in space.

I'm not accusing you of this, but some people that watched chest to chest defense in the 70s/80s can't fathom how you play good defense when you aren't running around constantly or in somebody's grill for 48 min.

Nailed it.

[forgetful]

The "physicality" removed added little to the game, IMO.  You want to watch body checks and clogged lanes with low scoring, watch mediocre HS basketball.   It doesn't even have to be run and gun 130 points a game Warriors offense, any good motion offense, even a Princeton style offense by teams that don't score a ton of points, is negatively impacted by hand checking and grabbing and "bodying" up people.

That being removed, "good" defense looks different.  Why waste the energy getting 18 inches from your man when they are athletic enough to slip by you on a cut, when you can understand spacing and passing lanes and intercept passes or deflect/angle in space.

I'm not accusing you of this, but some people that watched chest to chest defense in the 70s/80s can't fathom how you play good defense when you aren't running around constantly or in somebody's grill for 48 min.

Not disagreeing with the gist of your post, but the bolded misrepresents hand checking/steering and the defenses of the 80's early 90's.

They definitely understood spacing and passing lanes. Hand checking/steering was just a way to control the ball handler, and direct him where you wanted them to go, often into a trap defense. The Pistons in particular excelled at this, and it was predicated upon spacing and getting into the passing lanes.

Also, the hand checking, and physicality was a way to exhaust and frustrate the offensive player and wear them down. In my opinion, it's why a lot of those guys didn't have the longevity of a lot of the players today.

I think you are also mixing on-ball defense (where hand checking matters) and off-ball defense, where you are trying to get in passing lanes. In many regards, the defenses in the 80's were better at the off ball aspects, as the 3-point shot hadn't been emphasized yet, so it was easier to sag into passing lanes and set up traps that limited ball handler penetration.

[MU82]

The game was vastly different in the '80s and into the '90s. Big men ruled, and mid-range jumpers were the norm. The 3-pointer was still relatively rarely deployed, and certainly not as a primary weapon. Everything was different. Not necessarily "better" or "worse," but very different.

The greats of that era still would be great today, and the greats today would have flourished back then IMHO.

[The Sultan]

The game was vastly different in the '80s and into the '90s. Big men ruled, and mid-range jumpers were the norm. The 3-pointer was still relatively rarely deployed, and certainly not as a primary weapon. Everything was different. Not necessarily "better" or "worse," but very different.

The greats of that era still would be great today, and the greats today would have flourished back then IMHO.

It was worse.  Much less free flowing.  The iso ball resulting from mandatory man to man defense?  Awful...

And yes the greats from then would be fine today.  The role players from back then would be hanging out in the G-League however.

[MuggsyB]

🔥 🔥 🔥 Alert:

Tyrese Maxey has 24 pts, 9-9, 6-6 from distance, with 7 mins left in the 2nd Q. 

[4everwarriors]

He's on fire, hey?

[forgetful]

It was worse.  Much less free flowing.  The iso ball resulting from mandatory man to man defense?  Awful...

And yes the greats from then would be fine today.  The role players from back then would be hanging out in the G-League however.

Yes, zones were "illegal defenses," but nearly all the teams played zone principles, e.g. 1-2-2 trap, and sometimes outright zones that just weren't officiated. It was the most inconsistently called aspect of the NBA.

I think the defensive 3 second rule was a bigger change to the game than allowing a zone.

The game was vastly different in the '80s and into the '90s. Big men ruled, and mid-range jumpers were the norm. The 3-pointer was still relatively rarely deployed, and certainly not as a primary weapon. Everything was different. Not necessarily "better" or "worse," but very different.

The greats of that era still would be great today, and the greats today would have flourished back then IMHO.

100% agree. Loved the game then, still love the game now.

Greatly appreciate the aspects of the game that were different then, and now, and appreciate how they shaped the game and the roles of the players playing the different positions.

It has honestly been pretty cool watching how the next generation of players (particularly big men) have adapted their game, similarly guys like Curry who have changed how the game is played.

[Jockey]

It has honestly been pretty cool watching how the next generation of players (particularly big men) have adapted their game, similarly guys like Curry who have changed how the game is played.

There are more great young players than I ever remember, as well.

[The Sultan]

Yes, zones were "illegal defenses," but nearly all the teams played zone principles, e.g. 1-2-2 trap, and sometimes outright zones that just weren't officiated.

Yeah that's just not an accurate statement.

[forgetful]

Yeah that's just not an accurate statement.

We are going to have to disagree on this one. I tried to even give you the benefit of the doubt, and it was just many years clouding my memory. But a quick perusal of the internet confirms my memory of the game.

Here is one such example, from the SI vault from the 1982 championship.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1982/06/07/las-streak-goes-by-the-boards

"What had been especially vexing to Philadelphia in the first game was the way the Laker running game had fed off its trapping defense (which is legal in the NBA) and its zone defense (which isn't). "They play a zone," Philadelphia Coach Billy Cunningham said on Saturday. "Trapping isn't illegal. We have traps, too—full-court, half-court, three-quarter-court."

Maybe back then you didn't understand the game well enough to see the "zone principles" in the trap defense that were employed, or how often flat out zones were being used and not called.

[The Sultan]

I trust my memory and basketball knowledge more than I do yours. A couple examples that state otherwise don't mean much to me.

[MuggsyB]

If you were the GM of the Lakers what would you do?  It seems to me they have very few options.  They may be the worst team in the league, consider how incredible that is?  They are paying three guys about 130M this season.  Also, if they do make the lottery NOLA gets their pick.  Is there any team that actually wants Westbrook because of his expiring contract?  Davis has three more years on his deal... is he worth rolling the dice for a semi contender? 

[forgetful]

If you were the GM of the Lakers what would you do?  It seems to me they have very few options.  They may be the worst team in the league, consider how incredible that is?  They are paying three guys about 130M this season.  Also, if they do make the lottery NOLA gets their pick.  Is there any team that actually wants Westbrook because of his expiring contract?  Davis has three more years on his deal... is he worth rolling the dice for a semi contender?

I'd try to trade Lebron for 3 point shooters.