Buffalo shooting, take 2

[pacearrow02]

Breaking News

NRA Agrees To Gun Ban - oh, it's only at the NRA convention in Texas this week.

Is your suggestion that guns are allowed in elementary schools?

[MuggsyB]

Something that we haven't seemed to discuss here is that 99% of mass murderers are males and women are buying more guns than ever.  Including AR-15's which I've read tend to be their weapon of choice.  I'm all for extensive mental health checks before gun purchases but maybe men 35 and under should be profiled based on the statistics? 

[MU82]

From German Lopez of the NYT:

Where there are more guns, there are more gun deaths. Studies have found this to be true at the state and national level. It is true for homicides, suicides, mass shootings and even police shootings.

It is an intuitive idea: If guns are more available, people will use them more often. If you replaced "guns" in that sentence with another noun, it would be so obvious as to be banal.

Stricter gun laws appear to help. They are associated with fewer gun deaths, in both a domestic and global context, while looser gun laws are linked with more gun deaths.

But federal laws are lax. Other developed countries typically require at least a license to own a gun, if they allow someone to get a firearm at all. In the U.S., even a background check is not always required to buy a gun — a result of poor enforcement and legal loopholes.

The U.S. is always going to have more guns, and consequently more deaths, than other rich countries. Given the Second Amendment, mixed public opinion and a closely divided federal government, lawmakers face sharp limits on how far they can go.

But since America's gun laws are so weak, there is a lot of room to improve — and at least cut some gun deaths.

To reduce mass shootings, experts have several ideas:

++ More thorough background checks might stop some gunmen, like those in the church shootings in Charleston, S.C., in 2015 and in Sutherland Springs, Texas, in 2017.

++ "Red flag" laws allow law enforcement officials to confiscate guns from people who display warning signs of violence, like threatening their peers or family members. The laws might have applied to the gunman in the Parkland, Fla., school shooting in 2018.

++ Assault weapon bans would restrict or prohibit access to the kinds of rifles shooters often use. A ban could at least make mass shootings less deadly by pushing gunmen toward less effective weapons, some experts argue.

[Hards Alumni]

Not sure what you're getting snarky about, Wags. I'm agreeing with you.

I've been on the receiving end of you agreeing with me as well.

It barely feels that way. 

[Hards Alumni]

Scalise being #2 on that list is rich given he himself was shot by a lunatic...but given that he's a moronic dinosaur, not entirely surprising he's lacking sense.

I was going to say the same... but Steve is only 56 years old.   

[GB Warrior]

1. The Thin Blue Line was too thin
2. Uvalde didn't back the blue enough

3. They were majority hispanic

[Hards Alumni]

Well it's no St Louis in terms of rate, but in terms of number of murders it did lead the pack-.797 murders in 2021, New York and LA combined for 872-to put it into perspective.

That's cherry picking of the worst order.  We are talking murder RATE, not total numbers.  As a lawyer, I'm sure you can appreciate why this matters.

[Uncle Rico]

3. They were majority hispanic

Saw the video of the cops holding the parents back.  They did a pretty good job of it.  That funding was well spent. 

[Hards Alumni]

Something that we haven't seemed to discuss here is that 99% of mass murderers are males and women are buying more guns than ever.  Including AR-15's which I've read tend to be their weapon of choice.  I'm all for extensive mental health checks before gun purchases but maybe men 35 and under should be profiled based on the statistics?

And most are White.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

https://twitter.com/paleofuture/status/1529689677749534721

I could only watch a small part of this.  Just awful.

[Hards Alumni]

https://twitter.com/paleofuture/status/1529689677749534721

I could only watch a small part of this.  Just awful.

I'm not a parent, and there is no chance I can watch even 10 seconds of something like that. 

I saw a tiny snippet of video of a man who couldn't find his daughter that afternoon... turned my stomach upside down.

[lawdog77]

That's cherry picking of the worst order.  We are talking murder RATE, not total numbers.  As a lawyer, I'm sure you can appreciate why this matters.

I dont know who this "we" is. I was sinply pointing out that in terms of number of murders, Chicago tops the list. Almost twice as many as New York  or LA. I dont know why people want to minimize that number. Its not all Chicago's fault, as guns travel interstate.

[Uncle Rico]

I'm not a parent, and there is no chance I can watch even 10 seconds of something like that. 

I saw a tiny snippet of video of a man who couldn't find his daughter that afternoon... turned my stomach upside down.

Maybe the doors were locked by the killer?  Once a door is locked from the inside, it's impossible to get in

[Hards Alumni]

I dont know who this "we" is. I was sinply pointing out that in terms of number of murders, Chicago tops the list. Almost twice as many as New York  or LA. I dont know why people want to minimize that number. Its not all Chicago's fault, as guns travel interstate.

Sorry, I was the one that brought it up, and then you changed the way that murders are represented.  I'll accept that maybe I was going for the royal We there, but I think we are both having a conversation about how the murder rate in Chicago is grossly inflated on this board and widely in the national media.

Consider why that narrative is constantly pushed.  Chicago is in a solidly Democrat state, run by a Solidly Democrat governor, and managed by a Democrat mayor.  It is going to be the scapegoat for all murder stories pushed by the right because it is the perfect story for them.  They'll ignore NYC and LA... because the story doesn't fit well enough to push to their base.

[Pakuni]

I dont know who this "we" is. I was sinply pointing out that in terms of number of murders, Chicago tops the list. Almost twice as many as New York  or LA. I dont know why people want to minimize that number. Its not all Chicago's fault, as guns travel interstate.

"Maybe mentally ill 18-year-olds shouldn't have easy access to AR-15s."
"But what about Chicago?"

"It sure would be nice if elementary school kids could be sent to school without their parents having to worry about them being murdered in their classroom."
"But there was a shooting last night in Chicago!"

"It's awful that 10 people were killed while grocery shopping because a radicalized teenager was taught to hate Black people."
"Yeah, but Black people get shot every day in Chicago!"

Nobody here disagrees that Chicago has a gun violence problem, and that more can and should be done about it. But it's objectively not nearly as bad as some here - and in certain corners of the media - would have you believe.

But more than that, the people who incessantly bring up Chicago violence don't really care about Chicago violence, beyond its utility as a dog whistle and a distraction. When I've specifically asked what policies should be enacted or changed, they either misstate reality ("They should reinstate cash bail" ... uh, cash bail still exists in Chicago) or it's crickets.

So yeah, gun violence is a significant problem in Chicago. And the people who talk about it most here don't care.

[brewcity77]

IDK if this actually means anything, but I have seen more "we gotta do something" comments from the conservative, Trump supporters on my Facebook feed the last couple of days than I have after previous incidents like this. Perhaps this was so horrific, and so many of the myths around these incidents have been shown to be wrong, that there actually might be movement on some sensible legislation.

I remember the groundswell after Sandy Hook and all that's come of that is things getting worse. I won't believe in anyone "doing something" until we see improved outcomes. Even passing legislation is meaningless until the enforcement is proven to matter.

[cheebs09]

IDK if this actually means anything, but I have seen more "we gotta do something" comments from the conservative, Trump supporters on my Facebook feed the last couple of days than I have after previous incidents like this. Perhaps this was so horrific, and so many of the myths around these incidents have been shown to be wrong, that there actually might be movement on some sensible legislation.

I'm hoping things finally start moving but not optimistic. Based on the chart showing what the public actually wants, I'm not sure what it takes for the politicians to do something. Other than the NRA changing course.

[lawdog77]

"Maybe mentally ill 18-year-olds shouldn't have easy access to AR-15s."
"But what about Chicago?"

"It sure would be nice if elementary school kids could be sent to school without their parents having to worry about them being murdered in their classroom."
"But there was a shooting last night in Chicago!"

"It's awful that 10 people were killed while grocery shopping because a radicalized teenager was taught to hate Black people."
"Yeah, but Black people get shot every day in Chicago!"

Nobody here disagrees that Chicago has a gun violence problem, and that more can and should be done about it. But it's objectively not nearly as bad as some here - and in certain corners of the media - would have you believe.

But more than that, the people who incessantly bring up Chicago violence don't really care about Chicago violence, beyond its utility as a dog whistle and a distraction. When I've specifically asked what policies should be enacted or changed, they either misstate reality ("They should reinstate cash bail" ... uh, cash bail still exists in Chicago) or it's crickets.

So yeah, gun violence is a significant problem in Chicago. And the people who talk about it most here don't care.

Well, when people tend to minimize the sheer number of murders, not to mention how many shootings there were (how many shootings were there in 2021? Those injured by gun violence would like to be considered, I am sure), I am sure that's driven politically as well. It is Objectively bad, 2 murders a day in 2021. I don't care about the rate, and the victims families dont either. I am not blaming the violence in Chicago on Chicago laws, or police enforcement. It's a national problem. Those who want to defend Chicago's murder rate aren't helping the problem

Edit for googling: 508 shootings in Chicago Jan -March 2022. Down from 2021 time period, but up from 2019, and 2020.

[MU82]

My daughter-in-law is a 5th grade teacher in the Chicago burbs. She and I had a text exchange last night.

She said that she worries more as a parent after she drops off her kids at preschool than she does as a teacher who could get shot. "I try not to think about it (getting shot) because it would make it impossible to do my job. These kids need us to remain focused on teaching them."

And she said that in class yesterday, none of her 5th-graders even mentioned the Texas shooting. "These things happen so often that the kids are numb to them. There have been more school shootings this school year than we've had field trips." 

Wow.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Those who want to defend Chicago's murder rate aren't helping the problem

Yeah, no one is doing that.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Zara Rahim
@ZaraRahim
·
May 24
insane how the only notable change since Sandy Hook is that kids are now formally trained to hide, barricade doors, fight, or run for their lives. that was the solution. to literally put the responsibility on them to figure it out and wish them luck.

[lawdog77]

Yeah, no one is doing that.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on Today at 06:25:24 AM
Look guys, Chicago isn't the cesspool you have been lead to believe.  It's 10th.  So this trope that Chicago is some sort of daily massacre situation is an objective fallacy and a narrative pushed by a lot of people around here.  In 2021, it wasn't even in the top 20, and in 2022 it was 10th.

Additionally, let's stop the lie that it is only cities with Democrat mayors and governors.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I don't know enough about his politics overall. I do know that he was working with Manchin on bipartisan gun violence legislation but his party wouldn't let it happen.

That's the really frustrating and disappointing part. When 75% of your own voters favor something, but you are unwilling to pass it because 1) The crazies will primary you , 2) the titular head of your party will say insane things about you, 3) your media will actively destroy you, and 4) you'll lose that sweet, sweet NRA money...it's a unnatural carnal knowledgeed up system.

[shoothoops]

Guns are a public health crisis. The spin for personal power and wealth, is to gaslight and say that guns are a political issue.

The leading cause of death for those under age 20, is guns.

Teen drunk driving? Nope. Not any more. There have been a lot of new safety features and policies the past 20 years to address teen drunk driving.

[muwarrior69]

Sorry, I was the one that brought it up, and then you changed the way that murders are represented.  I'll accept that maybe I was going for the royal We there, but I think we are both having a conversation about how the murder rate in Chicago is grossly inflated on this board and widely in the national media.

Consider why that narrative is constantly pushed.  Chicago is in a solidly Democrat state, run by a Solidly Democrat governor, and managed by a Democrat mayor.  It is going to be the scapegoat for all murder stories pushed by the right because it is the perfect story for them.  They'll ignore NYC and LA... because the story doesn't fit well enough to push to their base.

NYC has pretty strict gun laws, but I guess they don't apply to juveniles. Pass all the gun control laws you want. If Prosecutors are not going to enforce them what is the point.

https://www.complex.com/music/charges-dropped-against-16-year-old-bronx-rapper-c-blu