OT: Old Big East teams in the ACC

[The Lens]

Slightly off topic, and Super Bar me if you want BUT...

With Chris Mack rumors swirling and Pitt & Cuse playing a meaningless game last night.  I decided to do a quick comp of OBE team last 5 years in the Big East vs their last 5 years in the ACC.  It's not pretty.

KenPom average their last 5 years in the Big East

Cuse: 9.2
Pitt: 22
Vile: 15
ND: 33

KenPom average last 5 years of ACC

Cuse: 50.8
Pitt: 138.2
Ville: 56.2
ND: 66.4

It's glaring for Pitt, Cuse and Louisville who were sometimes top 5 teams all at once and now are largely irrelevant.  They all chased the football money and ironically the teams that got stronger were the true football schools, the SEC, which has become a real power in hoops, too.

[tower912]

And the Big East survived and thrived.   For now.   

[brewcity77]

Requiem for the former members of the Big East. Looking outside the ACC...

Last 5 Big East years...

West Virginia: 19.4
Cincinnati: 49.2
South Florida: 106.4
Rutgers: 122.4

Last 5 years...

West Virginia: 37.6
Cincinnati: 53.0
South Florida: 176.4
Rutgers: 74.0 (All hail Steve Pikiell)

And the coup de grace...

UConn (Last 5 years Big East): 30.0
UConn (Last 5 years AAC): 90.2
UConn (Since rejoining Big East): 19.0

Only Rutgers has done better outside this league than in it, and that's thanks to a generational coach that brought them their first NCAA bid in three decades.

The Big East, it's just better here.

[Dr. Blackheart]

MU last 5 years in the Old BE: 23
Last 5 years (before Shaka): 46

[mug644]

"The Big East. It's a slam dunk."

[Mr. Nielsen]

This is what ACC match ups look like now. 
https://twitter.com/EmptySeatsPics/status/1486185654023303172?cxt=HHwWiMC5pc3-_p8pAAAA

[The Lens]

MU last 5 years in the Old BE: 23
Last 5 years (before Shaka): 46

Coaching matters.  Boeheim got old, Pitino got in trouble, Dixon got thrown under a bus and Brey is getting older.

So with like MU, you can make excuses for each place BUT when every school except Rutgers is down, it says something.

[Pakuni]

Requiem for the former members of the Big East. Looking outside the ACC...

Last 5 Big East years...

West Virginia: 19.4
Cincinnati: 49.2
South Florida: 106.4
Rutgers: 122.4

Last 5 years...

West Virginia: 37.6
Cincinnati: 53.0
South Florida: 176.4
Rutgers: 74.0 (All hail Steve Pikiell)

And the coup de grace...

UConn (Last 5 years Big East): 30.0
UConn (Last 5 years AAC): 90.2
UConn (Since rejoining Big East): 19.0

Only Rutgers has done better outside this league than in it, and that's thanks to a generational coach that brought them their first NCAA bid in three decades.

The Big East, it's just better here.

Now do athletic department revenues (excluding pandemic seasons, of course).

[The Lens]

Now do athletic department revenues (excluding pandemic seasons, of course).

Chasing short term revenue while producing a inferior product and upsetting your most loyal customers seems like a smart business strategy.

[tower912]

Don't mess with happy.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Chasing short term revenue while producing a inferior product and upsetting your most loyal customers seems like a smart business strategy.

Is it short-term, though? 

[BrewCity83]

The Big East, it's not just for breakfast anymore.

[Pakuni]

Chasing short term revenue while producing a inferior product and upsetting your most loyal customers seems like a smart business strategy.

You really believe the revenue gap between P5 programs and everyone else is short term?
My man, the gap is only going to get wider.

[#UnleashSean]

MU last 5 years in the Old BE: 23
Last 5 years (before Shaka): 46

Thanks to another once in a generation coach.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Slightly off topic, and Super Bar me if you want BUT...

With Chris Mack rumors swirling and Pitt & Cuse playing a meaningless game last night.  I decided to do a quick comp of OBE team last 5 years in the Big East vs their last 5 years in the ACC.  It's not pretty.

KenPom average their last 5 years in the Big East

Cuse: 9.2
Pitt: 22
Vile: 15
ND: 33

KenPom average last 5 years of ACC

Cuse: 50.8
Pitt: 138.2
Ville: 56.2
ND: 66.4

It's glaring for Pitt, Cuse and Louisville who were sometimes top 5 teams all at once and now are largely irrelevant.  They all chased the football money and ironically the teams that got stronger were the true football schools, the SEC, which has become a real power in hoops, too.

So what should they have done?

1.  Dropped football.  Just kidding - none of the schools were going to do this.
2.  Stayed in the Big East, which means now they are likely members of the American Conference (except for ND)
3.  Taken the ACC invite.

The obvious answer is #3.  Even if they knew THEN what they know NOW, they would have chosen #3 each and every time.  In fact they probably would have accepted the invites faster given what has happened to their former BE football playing colleagues.

[TallTitan34]

So what should they have done?

1.  Dropped football.  Just kidding - none of the schools were going to do this.
2.  Stayed in the Big East, which means now they are likely members of the American Conference (except for ND)
3.  Taken the ACC invite.

The obvious answer is #3.  Even if they knew THEN what they know NOW, they would have chosen #3 each and every time.  In fact they probably would have accepted the invites faster given what has happened to their former BE football playing colleagues.

4.  Not tell the rest of the league to turn down a massive ESPN deal then bolt. (Pitt)

Sure it likely would have broken up down the road but Pitt's program can rot for that move they pulled.

[thebigjake]

4.  Not tell the rest of the league to turn down a massive ESPN deal then bolt. (Pitt)

Sure it likely would have broken up down the road but Pitt's program can rot for that move they pulled.

Also, Pitt's massive nosedive in hoops was COMPLETELY predictable.  I never understood why they couldn't see it. Their entire recruiting base was NY and Penn. Those kids don't care about playing in Greensboro, NC (ACC tourney site).  And it's hard to get the kids that do care to also want to move up to Pittsburgh.

And it was predictable because the exact same thing had already happened to BC.  They used to be an NCAA tourney regular. Move from the BE to the ACC, completely fall apart. It was right there, but they ignored it.  For football. Which hasn't been anything special either, in Pitt or BC.

[TallTitan34]

Their entire recruiting base was NY and Penn. Those kids don't care about playing in Greensboro, NC (ACC tourney site).  And it's hard to get the kids that do care to also want to move up to Pittsburgh.

Len Elmore approves this post.

[Billy Hoyle]

Also, Pitt's massive nosedive in hoops was COMPLETELY predictable.  I never understood why they couldn't see it. Their entire recruiting base was NY and Penn. Those kids don't care about playing in Greensboro, NC (ACC tourney site).  And it's hard to get the kids that do care to also want to move up to Pittsburgh.

And it was predictable because the exact same thing had already happened to BC.  They used to be an NCAA tourney regular. Move from the BE to the ACC, completely fall apart. It was right there, but they ignored it.  For football. Which hasn't been anything special either, in Pitt or BC.

All of them took the football TV money and ran. Then to compound it, Pitt made an absolutely brutal hire with Kevin Stallings. The Athletic had an excellent piece on Pitt's cratering a few weeks ago. They made their bed, to hell with them.

While Syracuse hasn't won any conference titles in the ACC they have made two Final Fours and two more Sweet 16's since leaving, so it isn't like they've fallen off the face of the Earth.

[Pakuni]

Also, Pitt's massive nosedive in hoops was COMPLETELY predictable.  I never understood why they couldn't see it. Their entire recruiting base was NY and Penn. Those kids don't care about playing in Greensboro, NC (ACC tourney site).  And it's hard to get the kids that do care to also want to move up to Pittsburgh.

And it was predictable because the exact same thing had already happened to BC.  They used to be an NCAA tourney regular. Move from the BE to the ACC, completely fall apart. It was right there, but they ignored it.  For football. Which hasn't been anything special either, in Pitt or BC.

Jamie Dixon's departure and the hiring of Kevin Stallings to replace him had far more to do with Pitt's nosedive than conference affiliation.
Where a team plays its conference tourney probably ranks in the 30s or 40s among factors that lead to a kid's college decision.

[MarquetteDano]

Interested to see the same analysis for football. I think it hurt the basketball teams but does not seem like football has suffered too much. I dont count UConn has they were basically kicked out.

[thebigjake]

Jamie Dixon's departure and the hiring of Kevin Stallings to replace him had far more to do with Pitt's nosedive than conference affiliation.
Where a team plays its conference tourney probably ranks in the 30s or 40s among factors that lead to a kid's college decision.

You don't think Jamie Dixon bolted from there because he just lost his recruiting base?  I didn't mean to imply that the location of the tourney mattered that much- that was an example of the broader point- kids from NY (where he got most of his players) don't care as much about the ACC as the BE. And the kids that care about the ACC don't care about Pittsburgh.  Insert BC and kids from NE and the point is the same.

Taken in a football context, its the same point with Nebraska football and the Big 10. NB's primary recruiting base was OK and TX (and of course NB). But moving to the Big 10 took that away from them.  And the kids that grew up wanting to play in the Big 10 don't care about Nebraska.  Re-establishing those relationships isn't easy.  These schools saw the $ and ignored the obvious downsides.

[Pakuni]

You don't think Jamie Dixon bolted from there because he just lost his recruiting base?  I didn't mean to imply that the location of the tourney mattered that much- that was an example of the broader point- kids from NY (where he got most of his players) don't care as much about the ACC as the BE. And the kids that care about the ACC don't care about Pittsburgh.  Insert BC and kids from NE and the point is the same.

I think you're vastly overrating the importance of conference affiliation when it comes to recruiting, especially basketball recruiting. The one exception is SEC for football.
That said, wjhere's your evidence that Pitt (or any other from BE schools) lost their recruiting base by moving conferences?
Pitt's current roster includes five kids from NY/NJ, and four others from Pennsylvania.
Syracuse's current roster has eight kids from the NY/New England region (and only two of them are related to the coach).

[WhiteTrash]

Lots of good points made here. I do think the move from the Big East to the ACC hurt the basketball brands, but every school was correct in doing so, the money was significantly more. If I were a Pitt fan I'd make that move 100x out of 100.

I think the bigger mistake was the ACC overvaluing the programs they brought in. But it was probably a defense move as there were rumblings of SEC and Big 10 expansion.   

[bilsu]

Slightly off topic, and Super Bar me if you want BUT...

With Chris Mack rumors swirling and Pitt & Cuse playing a meaningless game last night.  I decided to do a quick comp of OBE team last 5 years in the Big East vs their last 5 years in the ACC.  It's not pretty.

KenPom average their last 5 years in the Big East

Cuse: 9.2
Pitt: 22
Vile: 15
ND: 33

KenPom average last 5 years of ACC

Cuse: 50.8
Pitt: 138.2
Ville: 56.2
ND: 66.4

It's glaring for Pitt, Cuse and Louisville who were sometimes top 5 teams all at once and now are largely irrelevant.  They all chased the football money and ironically the teams that got stronger were the true football schools, the SEC, which has become a real power in hoops, too.

What about Boston Co., Virginia Tech and Miami? I think they were the teams that left that allowed MU and other teams to join Big East.