Could we be Shaka's forever home?

[DoctorV]

Who were/are the big dollar supporters of MU ball and MU now. I used to know, but haven't really heard as of late.

It has been said that the Michels from Michels Corp played a big role in the Teve Wojexit and subsequent Shakarrival

[hairy worthen]

Yeah, that would never work today.  And it was a bad decision even then.

Was it?  Elaborate on why you think that.

[The Sultan]

Was it?  Elaborate on why you think that.

Because they had a really good team that could made the Final Four.  But instead they went to beat up on a bunch of also rans in the NIT.

[The Lens]

Nah Ma, if you studied Al, it was about reaching the mountain top of the profession, hey?

With Al, it was all about money.  It's why he left at the age of 47.  He wanted to make some real money. 

[Galway Eagle]

Because they had a really good team that could made the Final Four.  But instead they went to beat up on a bunch of also rans in the NIT.

While I agree it wasn't a good decision I don't think it's fair to call the field also rans. I mean it's like a 2seed team playing the field of 5 and 6 seeds.

[The Sultan]

I just meant also rans because they didn't make the NCAA.

[hairy worthen]

Because they had a really good team that could made the Final Four.  But instead they went to beat up on a bunch of also rans in the NIT.

Al probably benefited more in the long run by gaining publicity and further defining the program identity.  My take on it has always been Al felt like he was screwed and wanted to make a statement.  That helped define who he was and the program in future years and contributed to his legend.  Also, the NIT was no where near what it is today. Winning it still meant something at that time.

[The Sultan]

Al probably benefited more in the long run by gaining publicity and further defining the program identity.  My take on it has always been Al felt like he was screwed and wanted to make a statement.  That helped define who he was and the program in future years and contributed to his legend.  Also, the NIT was no where near what it is today. Winning it still meant something at that time.

If winning the NIT still meant something, why was it such a controversial decision when it happened?

IMO, the only reason it helped the "Al legend" is because he eventually won it in 1977.  If that didn't happen, it would have just been seen as a wasted opportunity.

[hairy worthen]

If winning the NIT still meant something, why was it such a controversial decision when it happened?

IMO, the only reason it helped the "Al legend" is because he eventually won it in 1977.  If that didn't happen, it would have just been seen as a wasted opportunity.

Maybe 1977 happened because of 1970 in terms of program building and recruiting a certain type of player.  There are plenty of coaches that won the NCAA that aren't the legend that AL became.  It wasn't only because of 1977

[The Sultan]

Maybe 1977 happened because of 1970 in terms of program building and recruiting a certain type of player.  There are plenty of coaches that won the NCAA that aren't the legend that AL became.  It wasn't only because of 1977

I don't understand why choosing to go to the NIT instead of the NCAA helped to build the program and recruit a certain type of player.  Wasn't he already getting those types of players?  Thompson had already graduated.  Meminger and Brell were on the 1970 team, Chones was on the team but ineligible as a freshman.

This is just my opinion obviously, but I think these are things that we tell ourselves for why Al made this choice.  But I think it's more the stuff of legend.

[hairy worthen]

I don't understand why choosing to go to the NIT instead of the NCAA helped to build the program and recruit a certain type of player.  Wasn't he already getting those types of players?  Thompson had already graduated.  Meminger and Brell were on the 1970 team, Chones was on the team but ineligible as a freshman.

This is just my opinion obviously, but I think these are things that we tell ourselves for why Al made this choice.  But I think it's more the stuff of legend.

I think it is just reinforced who he was and made the program more desirable to his target recruit. More of a big picture thing. Hell, I was 10 at the time what do I know.  Had they taken the NCAA bid and lost in the first or second round it would have been a blip on the radar, but here we are 50 years later talking about how Al turned down the NCAA and won the NIT. 

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

1970's NIT had a pretty good group of "also-rans":

Dr. J
Pistol Pete
Dean Smith coaching UNC
Bob Knight coaching Army (I think that was his last year there)

[MU82]

There are plenty of coaches that won the NCAA that aren't the legend that AL became.  It wasn't only because of 1977

Al became a legend because:

1. He won in 1977 in dramatic fashion, his very last game as a coach, to cap a decade in which he put Marquette basketball on the map.
2. He was a character, with a personality unlike any other.
3. His broadcasting career. A lot of people who knew little (or nothing) about his success at Marquette came to know him as a fun, provocative analyst -- kind of a similar situation to John Madden.

To Scoopers and the rest of those who love Marquette hoops, No. 1 on my list above obviously is No. 1, but otherwise the reason for his status as a "legend" probably is in a different order than I listed.

One could say the whole NIT situation contributed to the legend, as did the many Al stories that happened along the way, but nowhere near as much as the three things I listed.

[Herman Cain]

I think it is just reinforced who he was and made the program more desirable to his target recruit. More of a big picture thing. Hell, I was 10 at the time what do I know.  Had they taken the NCAA bid and lost in the first or second round it would have been a blip on the radar, but here we are 50 years later talking about how Al turned down the NCAA and won the NIT.

I agree with this analysis

[Galway Eagle]

Al became a legend because:

1. He won in 1977 in dramatic fashion, his very last game as a coach, to cap a decade in which he put Marquette basketball on the map.
2. He was a character, with a personality unlike any other.
3. His broadcasting career. A lot of people who knew little (or nothing) about his success at Marquette came to know him as a fun, provocative analyst -- kind of a similar situation to John Madden.

To Scoopers and the rest of those who love Marquette hoops, No. 1 on my list above obviously is No. 1, but otherwise the reason for his status as a "legend" probably is in a different order than I listed.

One could say the whole NIT situation contributed to the legend, as did the many Al stories that happened along the way, but nowhere near as much as the three things I listed.

Agreed. To me the argument for the NIT is: we won! It was still a big deal back then! Al walked to the beat of his own drum!

"We won": yes against an inferior field, high risk low reward.

"It was a big deal back then": yes it was. But the ncaa had definitely overtaken the NIT as the premier tournament. At the end of the day even another Elite 8 would be more impactful today to MU's bball tradition than an NIT championship.

Al's character: if we hadn't turned down the ncaa, would Al still be a character? Yes. There'd be a million great Al stories out there and his eccentric legend would still be memorable. In fact if we made the Final Four he might be an even bigger legend.

[dgies9156]

Maybe 1977 happened because of 1970 in terms of program building and recruiting a certain type of player.  There are plenty of coaches that won the NCAA that aren't the legend that AL became.  It wasn't only because of 1977

Gang:

A little bit of history:

  -- The 1969 basketball team was a free throw away from the Final Four. We were already near top of mountain and attracting the kind of recruits that were going to keep us a Blue Blood School through the 1970s.

  -- The 1970 decision was in no small measure due to a recurring feud between Al McGuire and Adolph "the Bigot" Rupp. Coach Rupp had been beaten by an arrogant, quite flamboyant McGuire at the Mideast Regional in Madison in 1969. Rupp was angry and as an SEC champion and member of the NCAA "committee" he had influence in where we went. We went to the Midwest Regional in Oklahoma City rather than the close-in Mideast Regional ostensibly because the Bigot was afraid we would defeat his Wildcats yet again.

  -- The NIT was really good in those days. Only conference champions and a select few independents made the tournament. There were 24 NCAA teams and everyone fell into one of those categories. The second best conference team, which today makes the NCAA hands down -- stayed home. In some cases, the second best team was better than the team that won the conference.

  -- Marquette was one of the comparatively few NCAA teams that at the time didn't care less what your color was as long as you could play basketball. The talent line was coming to us regardless because of Coach McGuire and because you knew you'd get a "fair" (meaning McGuire treated everyone equally) shake at Marquette.

Could we have made the Final Four in 1970? We were a point away from doing it in 1969 and returned most of that team. The following year, 1971 (with a young Jim Chones), proved that making that pinnacle is easier said than done, when we were jobbed out of a win against Ohio State in Athens, GA.

The basketball gods are fickle. We had an incredible team in both 1974 and 1976. In the former, we ran up against a team with David Thompson, whose talents were on par with Michael Jordan's (thank you drugs for ruining that!). In 1976, we had the second best team in the nation but ran up against the last undefeated team in NCAA history -- Indiana -- in the regional final. When we won in 1977, we had the worst record up to that time of any team ever to win the National Championship. We were about the last team in -- Last in last out.

Let's hope we have this kind of a debate about Shaka in the years ahead. I'm looking forward to it!

[Uncle Rico]

Gang:

A little bit of history:

  -- The 1969 basketball team was a free throw away from the Final Four. We were already near top of mountain and attracting the kind of recruits that were going to keep us a Blue Blood School through the 1970s.

  -- The 1970 decision was in no small measure due to a recurring feud between Al McGuire and Adolph "the Bigot" Rupp. Coach Rupp had been beaten by an arrogant, quite flamboyant McGuire at the Mideast Regional in Madison in 1969. Rupp was angry and as an SEC champion and member of the NCAA "committee" he had influence in where we went. We went to the Midwest Regional in Oklahoma City rather than the close-in Mideast Regional ostensibly because the Bigot was afraid we would defeat his Wildcats yet again.

  -- The NIT was really good in those days. Only conference champions and a select few independents made the tournament. There were 24 NCAA teams and everyone fell into one of those categories. The second best conference team, which today makes the NCAA hands down -- stayed home. In some cases, the second best team was better than the team that won the conference.

  -- Marquette was one of the comparatively few NCAA teams that at the time didn't care less what your color was as long as you could play basketball. The talent line was coming to us regardless because of Coach McGuire and because you knew you'd get a "fair" (meaning McGuire treated everyone equally) shake at Marquette.

Could we have made the Final Four in 1970? We were a point away from doing it in 1969 and returned most of that team. The following year, 1971 (with a young Jim Chones), proved that making that pinnacle is easier said than done, when we were jobbed out of a win against Ohio State in Athens, GA.

The basketball gods are fickle. We had an incredible team in both 1974 and 1976. In the former, we ran up against a team with David Thompson, whose talents were on par with Michael Jordan's (thank you drugs for ruining that!). In 1976, we had the second best team in the nation but ran up against the last undefeated team in NCAA history -- Indiana -- in the regional final. When we won in 1977, we had the worst record up to that time of any team ever to win the National Championship. We were about the last team in -- Last in last out.

Let's hope we have this kind of a debate about Shaka in the years ahead. I'm looking forward to it!

March is a crapshoot, aina?

[The Sultan]

My dad had always told me that Marquette being placed in the Midwest had nothing to do with Rupp, but with the Big Ten champion always being placed in the Mideast region.  And that even though that year's champion, Iowa, was more in the midwest than the mideast, that they decided to place them in the mideast due to tradition more than anything.  That meant one of the other schools had to move, and Marquette was the furthest west of the remaining mideast schools.

[Galway Eagle]

Gang:

A little bit of history:

  -- The 1969 basketball team was a free throw away from the Final Four. We were already near top of mountain and attracting the kind of recruits that were going to keep us a Blue Blood School through the 1970s.

  -- The 1970 decision was in no small measure due to a recurring feud between Al McGuire and Adolph "the Bigot" Rupp. Coach Rupp had been beaten by an arrogant, quite flamboyant McGuire at the Mideast Regional in Madison in 1969. Rupp was angry and as an SEC champion and member of the NCAA "committee" he had influence in where we went. We went to the Midwest Regional in Oklahoma City rather than the close-in Mideast Regional ostensibly because the Bigot was afraid we would defeat his Wildcats yet again.

  -- The NIT was really good in those days. Only conference champions and a select few independents made the tournament. There were 24 NCAA teams and everyone fell into one of those categories. The second best conference team, which today makes the NCAA hands down -- stayed home. In some cases, the second best team was better than the team that won the conference.

  -- Marquette was one of the comparatively few NCAA teams that at the time didn't care less what your color was as long as you could play basketball. The talent line was coming to us regardless because of Coach McGuire and because you knew you'd get a "fair" (meaning McGuire treated everyone equally) shake at Marquette.

Could we have made the Final Four in 1970? We were a point away from doing it in 1969 and returned most of that team. The following year, 1971 (with a young Jim Chones), proved that making that pinnacle is easier said than done, when we were jobbed out of a win against Ohio State in Athens, GA.

The basketball gods are fickle. We had an incredible team in both 1974 and 1976. In the former, we ran up against a team with David Thompson, whose talents were on par with Michael Jordan's (thank you drugs for ruining that!). In 1976, we had the second best team in the nation but ran up against the last undefeated team in NCAA history -- Indiana -- in the regional final. When we won in 1977, we had the worst record up to that time of any team ever to win the National Championship. We were about the last team in -- Last in last out.

Let's hope we have this kind of a debate about Shaka in the years ahead. I'm looking forward to it!

I'm sorry you're right it was better than it is now but this myth that it was basically on par with the NCAA tournament needs to be popped.

Your 1970 NIT field ranking at selection:

Army: NR 22-6
Cincinnati: 19 21-6
Duke: NR 17-9
Duquesne: NR 17-7
Georgetown: NR 18-7
Georgia Tech: NR 17-10
LSU: NR 22-10
Louisville: NR 18-9
Manhattan: NR 18-8
Marquette: 9 26-3
Massachusetts: NR 18-7
Miami (OH): NR 15-9
North Carolina: NR 18-9
Oklahoma: NR 19-9
St. John's: NR 21-8
Utah: NR 18-10


For the level of team we were that everyone gushes over the only team in that field who deserved to be on the court with us was Cincinnati.

[dgies9156]

My dad had always told me that Marquette being placed in the Midwest had nothing to do with Rupp, but with the Big Ten champion always being placed in the Mideast region.  And that even though that year's champion, Iowa, was more in the midwest than the mideast, that they decided to place them in the mideast due to tradition more than anything.  That meant one of the other schools had to move, and Marquette was the furthest west of the remaining mideast schools.

Fluff, ole buddy, not sure I agree with your Dad. Sounds in part like it was developed by the advocates for making Adolph Rupp a College Basketball saint.

We weren't competing with the Big 10 for that regional slot. In fact, in those days, we played an extra game because we were not in a conference (usually against the OVC or the MAC champion). We were competing with Notre Dame for the last Major Independent slot in the Mideast. Either we or Notre Dame were going to Oklahoma City.

McGuire argued we should stay closer to our fans because we had a better record than Notre Dame.

Damn Domers.

[dgies9156]

I'm sorry you're right it was better than it is now but this myth that it was basically on par with the NCAA tournament needs to be popped.
For the level of team we were that everyone gushes over the only team in that field who deserved to be on the court with us was Cincinnati.

Brother Galway:

I could go on all day about the differences in media exposure affecting ratings in those days compared to today. But suffice to say, the NCAA and Marquette made sure that never happened again.

The NCAA said if you're invited, you go. Period. Father John Raynor told Coach McGuire afterward that henceforth, the university would be making those decisions.

[Galway Eagle]

Brother Galway:

I could go on all day about the differences in media exposure affecting ratings in those days compared to today. But suffice to say, the NCAA and Marquette made sure that never happened again.

The NCAA said if you're invited, you go. Period. Father John Raynor told Coach McGuire afterward that henceforth, the university would be making those decisions.

Fair you can go on about media and exposure about the rankings. That's why I included records. Only 4 teams (not including us) had 20+ wins. Still not an impressive accomplishment considering who we're supposed to be at that point.

[JWags85]

1970's NIT had a pretty good group of "also-rans":

Dr. J
Pistol Pete
Dean Smith coaching UNC
Bob Knight coaching Army (I think that was his last year there)

I'm sorry you're right it was better than it is now but this myth that it was basically on par with the NCAA tournament needs to be popped.

Your 1970 NIT field ranking at selection:

Army: NR 22-6
Cincinnati: 19 21-6
Duke: NR 17-9
Duquesne: NR 17-7
Georgetown: NR 18-7
Georgia Tech: NR 17-10
LSU: NR 22-10
Louisville: NR 18-9
Manhattan: NR 18-8
Marquette: 9 26-3
Massachusetts: NR 18-7
Miami (OH): NR 15-9
North Carolina: NR 18-9
Oklahoma: NR 19-9
St. John's: NR 21-8
Utah: NR 18-10


For the level of team we were that everyone gushes over the only team in that field who deserved to be on the court with us was Cincinnati.

Exactly.  Look at Juan's list, all significant because of what they would do later, not at that time.

Bob Knight's Army teams were decent, but nothing special.  His legacy is from IU, not from Army.

LSU was mediocre.  Pistol Pete scored a million points but they beat nobody.  Lost to UK both times, lost to UCLA, lost their other ranked games.  Lost to Yale.

UMass had a first year Dr J.  His true breakout was the next year.  Again, decent, but nothing special.

That UNC team was probably Dean Smith's worst team since he got the UNC program cooking 5 years till he retired

[Dr. Blackheart]

Brother Galway:

I could go on all day about the differences in media exposure affecting ratings in those days compared to today. But suffice to say, the NCAA and Marquette made sure that never happened again.

The NCAA said if you're invited, you go. Period. Father John Raynor told Coach McGuire afterward that henceforth, the university would be making those decisions.

The crazy thing, the NIT had arguably the better players that year. That said, Al's stance helped break up a lot of NCAA and social barriers in years to come with his stance.

[The Sultan]

Fluff, ole buddy, not sure I agree with your Dad. Sounds in part like it was developed by the advocates for making Adolph Rupp a College Basketball saint.

We weren't competing with the Big 10 for that regional slot. In fact, in those days, we played an extra game because we were not in a conference (usually against the OVC or the MAC champion). We were competing with Notre Dame for the last Major Independent slot in the Mideast. Either we or Notre Dame were going to Oklahoma City.

McGuire argued we should stay closer to our fans because we had a better record than Notre Dame.

Damn Domers.

You could very well be correct.