Best passers in MU history

[swoopem]

Wow, I just read the first page and half without realizing the thread was from January 2022. I was thinking to myself that you guys, especially the older folks, were absolutely nuts for dismissing Kolek.

Glad I finally recognized the timeframe. Kolek is an all timer (kinda like Bailey, eh chicos)

[Lennys Tap]

Best passers in MU history
1 - Tony Miller
2 - Tyler Kolek (for now)
3 - Sam Worthen
4 - Lloyd Walton
5 - Dominic James
6 - Aaron Hutchins
7 - Dwyane Wade
8 - Jerel McNeal
9 - Junior Cadougan
10 - Robert Hall

Meminger, Diener and Marcus Washington didn’t make your top 10? Really?

[MU82]

Wow, I just read the first page and half without realizing the thread was from January 2022. I was thinking to myself that you guys, especially the older folks, were absolutely nuts for dismissing Kolek.

Glad I finally recognized the timeframe. Kolek is an all timer (kinda like Bailey, eh chicos)

The trajectory of this thread underscores how much Kolek has improved during his time at Marquette. He had to get better for our team to take the next step, and he has gotten SO much better.

I'm a pretty tough grader, and I'm not young so I've seen lots of MU point guards, and Kolek absolutely is the best passer I've seen in a Marquette uniform. I wouldn't have said that 14 months ago -- and I didn't early in this thread, naming Worthen.

Pretty incredible that Shaka could watch this kid as a mid-major 2-guard and identify him as a floor general good enough to be BEPOY -- an all-time recruiting "get" IMHO. Also kudos to Scoopers like Ners and Goose for realizing early on that he could be pretty special.

Oh, and kudos to brew, too. He said this way back on 1/18/22 -- a long time before Shaka trusted Oso to be our "point center":

I wouldn't put him on any list like this yet, but I could see Oso being on this type of list down the line. Definitely one of the best big man passers we've had.

As we now know, Oso is an awesome passer ... and reason #1A that Marquette is the Big East champion.

[TedBaxter]

Great Sam Worthen story from Ernie Douse/Tony Sykes.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ernie+douse+sam+worthen&&view=detail&mid=531CC3756D3CF72F3FEB531CC3756D3CF72F3FEB&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dernie%2520douse%2520sam%2520worthen%26qs%3Dn%26form%3DQBVR%26%3D%2525eManage%2520Your%2520Search%2520History%2525E%26sp%3D-1%26lq%3D0%26pq%3Dernie%2520douse%2520sam%2520worthen%26sc%3D0-23%26sk%3D%26cvid%3D1B36BAE8F3F2494695E1E82626BB7D99%26ghsh%3D0%26ghacc%3D0%26ghpl%3D

[TedBaxter]

I want anyone who remembers better to correct me, because I may be fuzzy on this. I believe Marquette was playing Duke on national TV in the 1979-80 season.  The game was played at the Dane County Coliseum in Madison and Billy Packer was the analyst. 

Duke was inbounding under their own basket and Sam was fronting a Duke playing on the side of the lane with his back to the inbounder.  All of a sudden Sam is on the ground with the Duke player on top of him and a charge was called on the Duke player.  The replay showed that Sam had grabbed the Duke players shorts with both hands and fell back and the Duke player fell on top of him. Billy Packer went absolutely wild calling it a playground move.  I was in the TV room at a dorm at UW-LaCrosse watching the game with about 8 other guys and everybody just started laughing because it was so damn funny and indeed a playground move.

Worthen was one of the most unique players to ever play at Marquette.

https://twitter.com/MUOverload/status/1624196516628889601

[Goose]

Ted


Worthen was indeed unique. He was a ton of fun to watch, and he was ahead of the curve in being a tall PG. Easily one of he most entertaining players in MU history, IMO.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Ted


Worthen was indeed unique. He was a ton of fun to watch, and he was ahead of the curve in being a tall PG. Easily one of he most entertaining players in MU history, IMO.

My memory of Sam the Sham also includes Rod Luck on the play by play.

Yes, Ted, your memory was perfectly correct.

[5DollarPitcher]

Kolek is the best and it’s not close.

[brewcity77]

Maybe it's just me, but Oso is up there too. His no-looks, his sense for where guys are the pick and roll, his ability to receive and quickly redistribute, definitely the best passing big I've seen here and one of the better passers period.

Another impressive aspect for Kolek is how much he's cut down the turnovers. He still has the occasional too hot pass or risky pass that ends up in the defense's hands, but it's far less than last year and as he said recently, if you're going to create for others, you're going to turn it over sometimes too.

[willie warrior]

Maybe it's just me, but Oso is up there too. His no-looks, his sense for where guys are the pick and roll, his ability to receive and quickly redistribute, definitely the best passing big I've seen here and one of the better passers period.

Another impressive aspect for Kolek is how much he's cut down the turnovers. He still has the occasional too hot pass or risky pass that ends up in the defense's hands, but it's far less than last year and as he said recently, if you're going to create for others, you're going to turn it over sometimes too.

Like Oso but Koleks court vision is far greater than Osos.

[Goose]

5 Dollar

I agree. I have never been a stat only guy in grading players and Kolek is the best, regardless of stats. Tony Miller had the ball in his hands an awful lot of the time and was very good in that role. That said, it is not even a question that Kolek is the best ever at MU.

[real chili 83]

5 Dollar

I agree. I have never been a stat only guy in grading players and Kolek is the best, regardless of stats. Tony Miller had the ball in his hands an awful lot of the time and was very good in that role. That said, it is not even a question that Kolek is the best ever at MU.

Yep, Miller was damned good, but he got a ton more games and touches.

[Goose]

Real

Tony Miller was a one man stall, not because of him, but KO. He fit the role KO wanted perfectly, but I would never consider him an all time great, even passer.

That said, his performance against Kentucky remains an all time great performance. Was one of my highlights post Al being at that game  and being on the team plane with my son and brother in law. A lot of beer was consumed that night.

[DoctorV]

From the jump, very early in his Marquette career, it was very obvious that TyKo was an elite passer, with some of the best court vision and passing ability that we have seen and I have seen in the years I’ve watched Marquette Basketball.

I can’t speak for the period before 2003, that’s why I love the perspective everyone on this board offers, but since that time Tyler is the best passing pg I’ve seen at Marquette. That’s a massive feat in itself when we had Travis Diener.

That said, it’s amazing when the game begins to slow down for a player and everything begins to work.
The rest of Tyler’s game, particularly his outside shooting and ability to drive and finish, needed a lot of work.
As MU82 has said, dude completely transformed himself in those departments and it’s amazing to see.

He just seems a step quicker, giving him more ability to get by his defender and around the big to get a good shot yo around the basket to score.
Why though? It’s doubtful he got quicker in one season like that.
When the outside shot starts dropping all other aspects of TyKos game completely open up. The defender has to respect him, has to step out and hesitate more on what he will do.
That extra second of doubt on if he will drain a 3 or make the perfect pass to the big or an open shooter allows Tyler to drive by and be more effective at getting enough separation to get a good shot up and score at the basket.

Tyler Kolek will be Big East PoY and he’s earned all of it.
Here’s to hoping he, and the rest of the awesome players on the squad, can carry Marquette to some March madness

[Goose]

DoctorV

By the time Kolek is done, we will be calling Travis Diener a poor man's Tyler Kolek and that is saying a lot. Travis Diener was a big time PG, high level competitor and winner during his time at MU. I believe Tyler Kolek has surpassed him all three categories this season. I believe Tyler Kolek is having the greatest single season since Dwade and one of the all time great years in MU history.

[tower912]

C'mon, Goose, go big.   We will be comparing Brunson to Tyler.   

[MU82]

He just seems a step quicker, giving him more ability to get by his defender and around the big to get a good shot yo around the basket to score.
Why though? It’s doubtful he got quicker in one season like that.
When the outside shot starts dropping all other aspects of TyKos game completely open up. The defender has to respect him, has to step out and hesitate more on what he will do.
That extra second of doubt on if he will drain a 3 or make the perfect pass to the big or an open shooter allows Tyler to drive by and be more effective at getting enough separation to get a good shot up and score at the basket.

It's not unheard of for an athlete to improve his quickness with agility training and the like, but I think the "quickness" comes not from anything he's done physically but from the work he put in to become a better finisher and more complete offensive player -- which, most importantly of all, made him more confident and decisive.

Last season, whenever he'd take it into the lane, he was gonna pass. Plain and simple. He was still fairly effective, but he'd occasionally get caught in the air, or his eyes would get read by the defense. So he averaged 5 assists and had a 2/1 A/TO ratio -- not horrible at all but not as efficient as Marquette needed its non-scoring PG to be.

Now, Tyler goes in thinking he'll pass or score, whichever opens up best for him. You can tell he has total confidence in his ability to finish over defenders, even taller ones. He lacked that confidence last season -- and for good reason, because he couldn't do it. That second dimension (and a third dimension, his improved outside shooting) has opened things up for him and his teammates. That he's working with a gifted passing big like Oso helps, too. As a result, Kolek is now averaging 8 assists with a 3/1 A/TO ratio, which is All-American stuff.

By the time Kolek is done, we will be calling Travis Diener a poor man's Tyler Kolek and that is saying a lot. Travis Diener was a big time PG, high level competitor and winner during his time at MU. I believe Tyler Kolek has surpassed him all three categories this season. I believe Tyler Kolek is having the greatest single season since Dwade and one of the all time great years in MU history.

I mostly agree, Goose, but there is one category in which Kolek has yet to surpass Diener.

Travis didn't just ride Wade's coattails to the 2003 Final Four; he carried Wade and the rest of the team into the Sweet 16, and he played well in the third and fourth rounds, too.

I truly appreciate what Kolek has accomplished this season. But, as is the case with every top athlete, ultimately he'll be measured by how far he has led his team. Diener was gonna be remembered fondly no matter what for his body of work, but he became a Marquette legend because of what he did in the first two games of the 2003 NCAA tournament. Similarly, Kolek has a great chance to cement that part of his legacy over the next 4 weeks -- and I wouldn't bet against him doing it!

[Goose]

82

Agreed. March success defines a career in my book.

[Newsdreams]

I want anyone who remembers better to correct me, because I may be fuzzy on this. I believe Marquette was playing Duke on national TV in the 1979-80 season.  The game was played at the Dane County Coliseum in Madison and Billy Packer was the analyst. 

Duke was inbounding under their own basket and Sam was fronting a Duke playing on the side of the lane with his back to the inbounder.  All of a sudden Sam is on the ground with the Duke player on top of him and a charge was called on the Duke player.  The replay showed that Sam had grabbed the Duke players shorts with both hands and fell back and the Duke player fell on top of him. Billy Packer went absolutely wild calling it a playground move.  I was in the TV room at a dorm at UW-LaCrosse watching the game with about 8 other guys and everybody just started laughing because it was so damn funny and indeed a playground move.

Worthen was one of the most unique players to ever play at Marquette.

https://twitter.com/MUOverload/status/1624196516628889601

Was at the game

[JWags85]

Jeff Anderson SUX

[JWags85]

Trajectory?

You think he's an NBA player?

1000%.  And the more you watch him, it bears out.  Honestly, he reminds me of Jason Williams at Florida when you start to look at his vision and creativity when it come to passing and angles.

And honestly, while it seems crazy to think about given his professional trajectory and different eras...

Steve Nash 6'3 195 (Jr and Sr year at Santa Clara): 19/3.5/6 on 44/40/88
Tyler Kolek 6'3 190 (Jr at Marquette):                      13/4.1/8 on 49/41/82

Hmmm....Nash also didn't have a good secondary scoring option.  Kolek does.

Also, no disrespect to either of them, but when you look at his recent BE POY comps, Arcidiacono and Gillespie, not only is he an equivalent shooter to them, but he's a FAR superior distributor. 

If he's not a mid-second round pick in the 2024 draft, if not higher, id be shocked

[Tyler COLEk]

I agree and would take Kolek’s NBA prospects ahead of anyone else on the team at this point. Wouldn’t have said that two months ago.

Improving quickness and agility, especially defensively, will be key for him to unlock the next level. But he’s not a player I’d bet against to keep evolving his game.