MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Silkk the Shaka on January 18, 2022, 10:53:14 AM
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Thinking about Kolek in context of past MU PGs, where would you rate him? I'll start the list based on those I'm familiar with or have actually seen play
1.) Tony Miller - top 10 assist man in NCAA history, holds many if not all MU assist records. I never saw him play but those that have I'm sure can attest (or disagree!)
2.) Travis Diener - knew exactly where his teammates were at all times, put the ball exactly where it needed to be exactly when it needed to be there. Had an absolutely absurd 53% assist rate his senior year, leading the nation.
3.) Tyler Kolek - his passing hitting rollers for easy dunks, open guys in rhythm for 3s, and dribble drive wrap-around passes in the paint have completely unlocked the offense and has helped create a program sea change from the prior star-focused ball-dominant regime
4.) Dominic James - his passing goes underappreciated (as does his entire career frankly) because of how he was used earlier in his career (higher volume shooter PG). But he was never a selfish player, and led an offense for a 4-year tournament team. Had an assist rate over 30% for his MU career.
5.) Junior Cadougan - another underappreciated player, he was a steady hand and had a great feel for pace (when to push in transition, when to probe in the half court, when to get out of the way for stars).
I only started following the program as a freshman in '02 so please chime in with any players you'd slot in with the above.
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Sam Worthen would be slotted #1 if you include players prior to you watching them.
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Sam Worthen would be slotted #1 if you include players prior to you watching them.
+1000
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Sam Worthen would be slotted #1 if you include players prior to you watching them.
Awesome will read up on him - anyone know if there are clips of him floating around?
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Sam Worthen was definitely the fanciest passer in school history.
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https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sam+worthen+marquette&&view=detail&mid=EB9BBE557A2ABEFBED17EB9BBE557A2ABEFBED17&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dsam%2Bworthen%2Bmarquette%26FORM%3DHDRSC4
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https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sam+worthen+marquette&&view=detail&mid=EB9BBE557A2ABEFBED17EB9BBE557A2ABEFBED17&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dsam%2Bworthen%2Bmarquette%26FORM%3DHDRSC4
Is that Al? The announcer sounds like Pete gillen.
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Any list like this has to include Sam Worthen, Lloyd Walton, and Dean Meminger.
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Lloyd Walton is high on the all-time list.
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1. Tony Miller
2. Worthen
3. Diener
4. Dominic James
5. Hutch
6. Walton
I'd stop it there.
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1. Tony Miller
2. Worthen
3. Diener
4. Dominic James
5. Hutch
6. Walton
I'd stop it there.
No there's never been a player who's as good at anything Al's guys did before or after them outside of Wade.
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Any list like this has to include Sam Worthen, Lloyd Walton, and Dean Meminger.
Agree 100%. But I'll put Sam Worthen on top
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I understand Mike Deane made a lot of passes
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Need to include Mandy "magic" Johnson on this list.
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Need to include Mandy "magic" Johnson on this list.
And John "Magic" Dawson.
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Agree 100%. But I'll put Sam Worthen on top
At a Globe Trotters game 7-8years ago at the Joyce ACC on NDs campus, Sam Worthen was the head coach of the Generals. Part of his job that night was to fire up the crowd. He gets on the microphone as says “the Generals are going to kick the Globe Trotters ass, the same way Marquette is going to kick Notre Dame’s ass tomorrow”. We happened to be playing ND the next day in Milwaukee. My kids and I yelled out “Hell yeah!” and stood up and clapped (I brain washed them very early on MU fandom). The rest of the arena was dead silent. I think they were shocked that anyone would say that on their home court. It was awkward and funny all at the same time. Had to explain to my kids, who were young at the time, who Sam was.
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At a Globe Trotters game 7-8years ago at the Joyce ACC on NDs campus, Sam Worthen was the head coach of the Generals. Part of his job that night was to fire up the crowd. He gets on the microphone as says “the Generals are going to kick the Globe Trotters ass, the same way Marquette is going to kick Notre Dame’s ass tomorrow”. We happened to be playing ND the next day in Milwaukee. My kids and I yelled out “Hell yeah!” and stood up and clapped (I brain washed them very early on MU fandom). The rest of the arena was dead silent. I think they were shocked that anyone would say that on their home court. It was awkward and funny all at the same time. Had to explain to my kids, who were young at the time, who Sam was.
Given that the Globetrotters are family fare, I'm kind of shocked that Sam would say "ass" twice over the P.A. system.
But I do like the story.
And yes, Sam was the best passer I've seen in a Marquette uniform.
One name Scoopers are forgetting ... Dwyane Wade. Yes, his role was to be a finisher, not a passer. But he was an outstanding passer, often drew double-teams and passed well out of them, and averaged 4+ assists his last year even though he was the scoring star. A very good passer during his NBA career, too.
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I understand Mike Deane made a lot of passes
I see you TSmith. Well played
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Thinking about Kolek in context of past MU PGs, where would you rate him? I'll start the list based on those I'm familiar with or have actually seen play
1.) Tony Miller - top 10 assist man in NCAA history, holds many if not all MU assist records. I never saw him play but those that have I'm sure can attest (or disagree!)
2.) Travis Diener - knew exactly where his teammates were at all times, put the ball exactly where it needed to be exactly when it needed to be there. Had an absolutely absurd 53% assist rate his senior year, leading the nation.
3.) Tyler Kolek - his passing hitting rollers for easy dunks, open guys in rhythm for 3s, and dribble drive wrap-around passes in the paint have completely unlocked the offense and has helped create a program sea change from the prior star-focused ball-dominant regime
4.) Dominic James - his passing goes underappreciated (as does his entire career frankly) because of how he was used earlier in his career (higher volume shooter PG). But he was never a selfish player, and led an offense for a 4-year tournament team. Had an assist rate over 30% for his MU career.
5.) Junior Cadougan - another underappreciated player, he was a steady hand and had a great feel for pace (when to push in transition, when to probe in the half court, when to get out of the way for stars).
I only started following the program as a freshman in '02 so please chime in with any players you'd slot in with the above.
Agree with This but Sam Worthen came immediately to mind too and would put Him somewhere in there. Mandy was awesome . I met him and Ate with him at Schroeder. He liked my ex gf. Although believe Mandy was a McDonalds All American an awesome quick and fast player But would not put him on here as a passer since he predetermined his reads too much and could not adjust fast enough in mid dribble to either pass or shoot. But love Mandy as a person and player.
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I understand Mike Deane made a lot of passes
This joke bites.
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Mike1977
Mandy liked everyone's gf or ex-gf. He was a great guy, great defender but far from an all time great MU passer.
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#31...end of da disskoosion, hey?
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Please consider turnover rates
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1. Tony Miller
2. Worthen
3. Diener
4. Dominic James
5. Hutch
6. Walton
I'd stop it there.
DJames over Kolek with Kolek not even worthy of the list? Is it just because Kolek hasn't finished his career yet? Just curious on your take is all since you saw the Worthen/Hutch/Walton/Miller crew too
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Doc
31 would have field day in this style of ball. Plus, he was a tall, talented PG. His height was made him even better as a passer.
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Doc
31 would have field day in this style of ball. Plus, he was a tall, talented PG. His height was made him even better as a passer.
His number is hanging in the rafters, hey?
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Joey Hauser was the best and most unselfish passer I ever saw
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Dr. B,
Something like his number hanging in the rafters.
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Dr. B,
Something like his number hanging in the rafters.
;)
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I wouldn't put him on any list like this yet, but I could see Oso being on this type of list down the line. Definitely one of the best big man passers we've had. Other than Luke Fischer, I'm not sure we've had a ton of great passers out of the post in the past couple decades. Anyone else that comes to mind in terms of passers who weren't point guards?
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I wouldn't put him on any list like this yet, but I could see Oso being on this type of list down the line. Definitely one of the best big man passers we've had. Other than Luke Fischer, I'm not sure we've had a ton of great passers out of the post in the past couple decades. Anyone else that comes to mind in terms of passers who weren't point guards?
Sam Hauser?
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I wouldn't put him on any list like this yet, but I could see Oso being on this type of list down the line. Definitely one of the best big man passers we've had. Other than Luke Fischer, I'm not sure we've had a ton of great passers out of the post in the past couple decades. Anyone else that comes to mind in terms of passers who weren't point guards?
Henry was a good passer.
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Walter Downing was a good passer.
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I wouldn't put him on any list like this yet, but I could see Oso being on this type of list down the line. Definitely one of the best big man passers we've had. Other than Luke Fischer, I'm not sure we've had a ton of great passers out of the post in the past couple decades. Anyone else that comes to mind in terms of passers who weren't point guards?
Justin Lewis
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I've made more passes than any of the ones named so far.
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DJames over Kolek with Kolek not even worthy of the list? Is it just because Kolek hasn't finished his career yet? Just curious on your take is all since you saw the Worthen/Hutch/Walton/Miller crew too
Kolek's played in 22 games for Marquette. He does not belong in any pantheon of Marquette players yet.
I did not see all those guys plays, but there are plenty of old games available to watch. It's worth the time, just to watch the game evolve. There's some transcendent talent amongst the generations and it's easy to spot, even if the 70s game no longer translates.
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Kolek's played in 22 games for Marquette. He does not belong in any pantheon of Marquette players yet.
I did not see all those guys plays, but there are plenty of old games available to watch. It's worth the time, just to watch the game evolve. There's some transcendent talent amongst the generations and it's easy to spot, even if the 70s game no longer translates.
I can’t prove this, but I think there are less great passers across all levels of basketball than in the past. The game has evolved to the point where a guy like Kolek feels like a bit of an outlier
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Ray Buivid
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I've made more passes than any of the ones named so far.
Passin' gas duzant kount, hey?
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Henry was a good passer.
Henry only made the easy passes.
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I've made more passes than any of the ones named so far.
Not many were completed, sources say.
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Markus.
*ducks*
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I can’t prove this, but I think there are less great passers across all levels of basketball than in the past. The game has evolved to the point where a guy like Kolek feels like a bit of an outlier
Well you can also look at assist % and with available data (looking at kenpom here so back to 2002) he's 2nd best behind Diener over the past 20 years and it's a pretty wide margin. Granted small sample size but eye test definitely agrees (IMHO of course).
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1. Tony Miller
2. Worthen
3. Diener
4. Dominic James
5. Hutch
6. Walton
I'd stop it there.
Never saw Worthen or Walton play. However, Kolek is a better passer than Tony Miller, Diener, Dominic James, and Aaron Hutchins - and it’s really not even close.
Diener, Dom, Hutch were largely shoot first/pass second players.
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Never saw Worthen or Walton play. However, Kolek is a better passer than Tony Miller, Diener, Dominic James, and Aaron Hutchins - and it’s really not even close.
Diener, Dom, Hutch were largely shoot first/pass second players.
Huh?
Diener's assist rate his last two years were 41.8% and 53.3% (!), respectively. In other words, he assisted on 53.3% of the rest of the team's made field goals his senior year.
Kolek is at a very impressive 36.9% this year, but he's a long way off from Diener. You're vastly underrating his passing acumen and how much of a distributor he was.
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Markus.
*ducks*
He could pass it to the hoop like nobody I've ever seen
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Lots of great passers over the years, and several of these were great. But ... No mention of Doc Rivers or Jim Boylan (only PG with a championship)?
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Lots of great passers over the years, and several of these were great. But ... No mention of Doc Rivers or Jim Boylan (only PG with a championship)?
Rivers has been mentioned
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No he hasn't. And, if you knew MU hoops, like you pretend you know everything else, #31 isn't a reference to Rivers, hey?
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Rivers has been mentioned
0/10. Wrong player referenced.
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Rivers has been mentioned
uncle geeko another zero fer the zero...sounds like a U dubya dude to me
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No he hasn't. And, if you knew MU hoops, like you pretend you know everything else, #31 isn't a reference to Rivers, hey?
Whenever I think of #31 I think of Rod Luck for his Sam the Sham calls. After the 10 PM news, Rod used to come into The Gym with a broad on each arm.
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/communities/san-diego/story/2021-03-06/obituary-1948-2021-former-kusi-newsman-rod-luck-remembered-for-oversize-personality
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0/10. Wrong player referenced.
Bo 😞
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Huh?
Diener's assist rate his last two years were 41.8% and 53.3% (!), respectively. In other words, he assisted on 53.3% of the rest of the team's made field goals his senior year.
Kolek is at a very impressive 36.9% this year, but he's a long way off from Diener. You're vastly underrating his passing acumen and how much of a distributor he was.
Yes. I stand corrected on Travis. Despite Tony Miller holding the all time assist record, he started every game since he was a freshman at MU so tons of minutes. He was very good, yet Kolek is a much better penetrator and creator. I feel similarly about Dominic.
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Yes. I stand corrected on Travis. Despite Tony Miller holding the all time assist record, he started every game since he was a freshman at MU so tons of minutes. He was very good, yet Kolek is a much better penetrator and creator. I feel similarly about Dominic.
I’d be interested in seeing Tony’s advanced stats throughout his Marquette career. Tyler runs the offense incredibly efficiently but his turnover rate is too high.
Dominic is similar to Kolek with less turnovers
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Markus.
*ducks*
Sample size too small
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You folks have missed the most obvious one of all:
Who did Al have threw the cross-court pass in March 1977 that defeated UNCC and set us to the Natty?
Butch Lee.
Enough said!
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Dr. B
Rod Luck was one of a kind. I think there may be a number of posters that have no idea who 31 is, yet are listing off all time greats. But, thanks for clarity, I was not sure if you guys were talking Bo or Rivers or 31.
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Dr. B
Rod Luck was one of a kind. I think there may be a number of posters that have no idea who 31 is, yet are listing off all time greats. But, thanks for clarity, I was not sure if you guys were talking Bo or Rivers or 31.
Some good sarcasm is often missed on Scoop. I love Doc and for all he has done including for the university. But, his jersey is in the rafters because Crean was suckling up to him, not for what he did on the floor.
Worthen was a one of a kind passer, making those around him, who were rather mediocre, much better. I wish there was more tape of him. The ND tape didn’t do justice because of the zone and slow down pace of that game.
Eras change. MU fans are blessed to be able to compare across with so much talent and history.
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https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sam+worthen+marquette&&view=detail&mid=EB9BBE557A2ABEFBED17EB9BBE557A2ABEFBED17&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dsam%2Bworthen%2Bmarquette%26FORM%3DHDRSC4
Thanks for posting that footage. Hadn’t seen it. Would love to see more of Worthen when MU was playing vs man-to-man where he’s weaving and dishing. Vs that stagnant zone it’s hard to get a feel for his skill as a passer.
That was a lot of talent on the floor for Notre Dame. Future NBA all stars in Woolridge, Trepuka and Paxon.
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Thanks for posting that footage. Hadn’t seen it. Would love to see more of Worthen when MU was playing vs man-to-man where he’s weaving and dishing. Vs that stagnant zone it’s hard to get a feel for his skill as a passer.
That was a lot of talent on the floor for Notre Dame. Future NBA all stars in Woolridge, Trepuka and Paxon.
What a different game back then. Technical for a two handed dunk. No shot clock. No three point shot. Fun to watch still but way different. Those were the MU teams I was old enough to enjoy and why I went to MU. Little did I know Dukiet would have the reigns when I arrived. Makes me want to vomit.
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Worthen had that "it" factor from my observations. Supreme coolness for lack of a better phrase.
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You folks have missed the most obvious one of all:
Who did Al have threw the cross-court pass in March 1977 that defeated UNCC and set us to the Natty?
Butch Lee.
Enough said!
We can probably all agree that although Butch was not the greatest passer in MU history, that was the greatest pass in MU history.
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Worthen had that "it" factor from my observations. Supreme coolness for lack of a better phrase.
The fans in my section used to call him "God." He was rockin' the shaved head way before it became popular (OK, it mostly was very close-cropped, but he did shave it a couple times), and had incredible swag before "swag" existed in the lexicon. As a player, he had the ball on a string and was a gifted passer, and he was taller than most PGs at the time so could see over the top. Only an OK jump-shooter but he had a variety of moves around the hoop and was a great finisher. Definitely my favorite player from my MU years.
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You folks have missed the most obvious one of all:
Who did Al have threw the cross-court pass in March 1977 that defeated UNCC and set us to the Natty?
Butch Lee.
Enough said!
Yep. One of the best gems is Gasaway's book was that he said that Al made a big show of arguing that Whitehead made the shot before the buzzer (only thing everyone was focusing on) to distract the refs from noticing in the replay that Whitehead was guilty of goaltending. Al saw it, but the refs attention was on the shot clock.
Edit- rest in peace Jerome. It was fairly clear that the COD was drug OD. I wish his life in his later years had turned out better.
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The fans in my section used to call him "God." He was rockin' the shaved head way before it became popular (OK, it mostly was very close-cropped, but he did shave it a couple times), and had incredible swag before "swag" existed in the lexicon. As a player, he had the ball on a string and was a gifted passer, and he was taller than most PGs at the time so could see over the top. Only an OK jump-shooter but he had a variety of moves around the hoop and was a great finisher. Definitely my favorite player from my MU years.
I was a freshman at Marquette when he came on the scene, but my dad had been a season ticket holder since the Meminger days so I had attended almost all of MU home games during the 70's before enrolling in 1978. Sam was unique. Kind of had that Magic Johnson swag. Tall point guard, ball on a string as you said, and the no look passes. Then I got to see Doc Rivers follow him.
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I had Worthen in a couple classes. Definitely a cool cat.
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I was a freshman at Marquette when he came on the scene, but my dad had been a season ticket holder since the Meminger days so I had attended almost all of MU home games during the 70's before enrolling in 1978. Sam was unique. Kind of had that Magic Johnson swag. Tall point guard, ball on a string as you said, and the no look passes. Then I got to see Doc Rivers follow him.
Swag does matter. I kinda miss "Rowsey-time".
5 Swagiest MU hoopers 1st team?
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Start another thread.
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Wonder if Trend Blackledge or Todd Townsend make the list, they had a lot of swag
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Sam Worthen would be slotted #1 if you include players prior to you watching them.
Yes.
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Lots of great passers over the years, and several of these were great. But ... No mention of Doc Rivers or Jim Boylan (only PG with a championship)?
Or Dick Nixon. A real blast from the past
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I had Worthen in a couple classes. Definitely a cool cat.
Did you ever get a chance to see him on the court at Helfaer?
He would throw passes off the walls to teammates under the basket, (causing an occasional jogger to go scrambling).
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Did you ever get a chance to see him on the court at Helfaer?
He would throw passes off the walls to teammates under the basket, (causing an occasional jogger to go scrambling).
No I didn't, but I can imagine how entertaining that must've been.
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No I didn't, but I can imagine how entertaining that must've been.
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They were amazing at the rec center.
I was at that ND game.
We won.
ND SUCKS!
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I was a freshman at Marquette when he came on the scene, but my dad had been a season ticket holder since the Meminger days so I had attended almost all of MU home games during the 70's before enrolling in 1978. Sam was unique. Kind of had that Magic Johnson swag. Tall point guard, ball on a string as you said, and the no look passes. Then I got to see Doc Rivers follow him.
You and I were classmates, sir. Maybe even exchanged high-5s after one of Sam's no-look passes! (Unless you were doin' the whole Vander thing and ignoring slaps of 5.)
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You and I were classmates, sir. Maybe even exchanged high-5s after one of Sam's no-look passes! (Unless you were doin' the whole Vander thing and ignoring slaps of 5.)
Probably did somewhere along the line. There was a lot of good talent there during our tenure.
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Did you ever get a chance to see him on the court at Helfaer?
He would throw passes off the walls to teammates under the basket, (causing an occasional jogger to go scrambling).
I dunked on him at the Rec Center
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Wanted to bump this topic, anyone have a different rank one year later?
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I’d be interested in seeing Tony’s advanced stats throughout his Marquette career. Tyler runs the offense incredibly efficiently but his turnover rate is too high.
Dominic is similar to Kolek with less turnovers
Tyler is 3.3/1 assist to TO ratio
Dominic was roughly 2:1 assist to TO ratio
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No one MU has ever provided more easy baskets to a teammate more than Kolek has imo. Sam Worthen was a joy to watch and more flare to his game, but Kolek is the best in making everyone better due to his passing.
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Never saw Worthen or Walton play. However, Kolek is a better passer than Tony Miller, Diener, Dominic James, and Aaron Hutchins - and it’s really not even close.
Diener, Dom, Hutch were largely shoot first/pass second players.
I stand by this quote from last January, now with another season of evidence. Maybe Diener was a better passer, but I sure don't recall watching Travis play and being blown away at the caliber of passes/court vision he had. Yet his assist rate Junior and Senior year was 41 and 53% respectively. Though he played in an inferior conference and on inferior teams his Junior/Senior season, as compared to what Kolek has last year/this year.
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Elon
If there hockey assists in basketball Kolek would blow any past player away by a wide margin. The amount of times that he hits the right guy, who then hits the right guy is off thd charts.
Secondly, I learned a long time ago that best passers know where to hit the receiver of the pass. No one has ever come close to putting the ball in the right place more than Kolek.
I will add I learned that from Rick Majerus at a very young age, like grade school and I never forgot it. The guy catching the ball has to be in the right position and pass needs to match. That is one area Gold needs to improve a great deal. I would say Kolek has one turnover a game due to Gold not expecting the pass.
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No one MU has ever provided more easy baskets to a teammate more than Kolek has imo. Sam Worthen was a joy to watch and more flare to his game, but Kolek is the best in making everyone better due to his passing.
Totally agree Goose. Would be interesting to see our offensive efficiency when Kolek is off the floor.
Elon
If there hockey assists in basketball Kolek would blow any past player away by a wide margin. The amount of times that he hits the right guy, who then hits the right guy is off thd charts.
Secondly, I learned a long time ago that best passers know where to hit the receiver of the pass. No one has ever come close to putting the ball in the right place more than Kolek.
I will add I learned that from Rick Majerus at a very young age, like grade school and I never forgot it. The guy catching the ball has to be in the right position and pass needs to match. That is one area Gold needs to improve a great deal. I would say Kolek has one turnover a game due to Gold not expecting the pass.
Gold did have a couple of rough possessions last game where he fumbled the passes from Tyler, that were really pretty on target. Yet, in the previous game there was an absolute bullet Tyler fired to Gold from only 3-4 feet away that Ben snared with 1 hand and was able to reverse pivot, and then pivot into converting for a score. Gold has had moments of butterfingers but I feel some of that was just a function of adjusting to the speed of the game. He's too coordinated to not have good hands.
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Elon
Unfortunately Gold and Kolek likely do not have two more years of playing together, but I believe if they did, they would make the Kolek-Oso combo look like a CYO team. With Gold’s shooting and ability to get to the rim it would be highlight film for the ages.
Again, unfortunately, we will only see glimpses of that next year if Oso is back. That said, it all starts with fxxk ‘em and he makes everyone look better.
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Kolek is certainly one of the best passers in MU history. But this team passes better than any other Marquette team I've seen. The way they move the ball is a pure joy to watch.
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Elon
Unfortunately Gold and Kolek likely do not have two more years of playing together, but I believe if they did, they would make the Kolek-Oso combo look like a CYO team. With Gold’s shooting and ability to get to the rim it would be highlight film for the ages.
Again, unfortunately, we will only see glimpses of that next year if Oso is back. That said, it all starts with fxxk ‘em and he makes everyone look better.
I very much hope Oso is back.
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Elon
Unfortunately Gold and Kolek likely do not have two more years of playing together, but I believe if they did, they would make the Kolek-Oso combo look like a CYO team. With Gold’s shooting and ability to get to the rim it would be highlight film for the ages.
Again, unfortunately, we will only see glimpses of that next year if Oso is back. That said, it all starts with fxxk ‘em and he makes everyone look better.
You don't think Gold will stay for 2 more seasons?
Tyler already said he wants to play in College as long as he can. Sounds like he will probably be back for 2 more.
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You don't think Gold will stay for 2 more seasons?
Tyler already said he wants to play in College as long as he can. Sounds like he will probably be back for 2 more.
TK said that. But at his trajectory no chance he uses that 5th year. And thats ok with me because hes earning it.
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Golden
If Tyler Kolek is still playing basketball at MU in two years he better be getting big time money or else he bumped his head. I wish he could play five more years, but I also hope he does what is best for him. I cannot see any scenario that would include playing two more years of college basketball that would be in his best interest.
Hell, I am selfish when it comes to being an MU fan, but that would be asking too much from him, imo. If I was coach or Dad I would strongly encourage him not to be playing college basketball in two years based off where he is today.
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Golden
If Tyler Kolek is still playing basketball at MU in two years he better be getting big time money or else he bumped his head. I wish he could play five more years, but I also hope he does what is best for him. I cannot see any scenario that would include playing two more years of college basketball that would be in his best interest.
Hell, I am selfish when it comes to being an MU fan, but that would be asking too much from him, imo. If I was coach or Dad I would strongly encourage him not to be playing college basketball in two years based off where he is today.
Yeah, I took his podcast comment more as a "Im loyal to Marquette" type of thing.
The guy wasnt guarnateeing hes going to do two more years of college and turn down millions of dollars(if offered) to play pro ball ha.
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PG’s
Again I am a very selfish fan and I would be pissed at him if he was still here in two years. Granted, if he had a chance to do something of serious note, not be all time assist leader, I could be swayed in my opinion. But, to me something historical is team success oriented and not ready to proclaim thoughts on that topic. But, it would not be going to three straight S16’s or one FF.
If he/they do something of serious note as a team I could see an argument for chasing something bigger than money, provided he is making real coin at MU. Again selfishly, I hope we are having team success discussions 13 months from now.
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TK is the best of my lifetime. Not even close
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TAMU
Based off almost two years of watching Kolek, I believe he is the best I have seen in my lifetime. That is based off of overall body of work, not simply entertainment purposes. Sam Worthen was the most entertaining and best for a long time, but Kolek’s overall impact has surpassed Worthen in my book.
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TK said that. But at his trajectory no chance he uses that 5th year. And thats ok with me because hes earning it.
Trajectory?
You think he's an NBA player?
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Best passers in MU history
1 - Tony Miller
2 - Tyler Kolek (for now)
3 - Sam Worthen
4 - Lloyd Walton
5 - Dominic James
6 - Aaron Hutchins
7 - Dwyane Wade
8 - Jerel McNeal
9 - Junior Cadougan
10 - Robert Hall
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Trajectory?
You think he's an NBA player?
Even if not NBA the amount of $ he could make in Europe no NIL would compensate.
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Best passers in MU history
1 - Tony Miller
2 - Tyler Kolek (for now)
3 - Sam Worthen
4 - Lloyd Walton
5 - Dominic James
6 - Aaron Hutchins
7 - Dwyane Wade
8 - Jerel McNeal
9 - Junior Cadougan
10 - Robert Hall
Great list
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TAMU
Based off almost two years of watching Kolek, I believe he is the best I have seen in my lifetime. That is based off of overall body of work, not simply entertainment purposes. Sam Worthen was the most entertaining and best for a long time, but Kolek’s overall impact has surpassed Worthen in my book.
Agreed. Kolek has already surpassed Worthen who was awesome
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If I made a pass at a coed I just might get slapped. ;D
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Wow, I just read the first page and half without realizing the thread was from January 2022. I was thinking to myself that you guys, especially the older folks, were absolutely nuts for dismissing Kolek.
Glad I finally recognized the timeframe. Kolek is an all timer (kinda like Bailey, eh chicos)
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Best passers in MU history
1 - Tony Miller
2 - Tyler Kolek (for now)
3 - Sam Worthen
4 - Lloyd Walton
5 - Dominic James
6 - Aaron Hutchins
7 - Dwyane Wade
8 - Jerel McNeal
9 - Junior Cadougan
10 - Robert Hall
Meminger, Diener and Marcus Washington didn’t make your top 10? Really?
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Wow, I just read the first page and half without realizing the thread was from January 2022. I was thinking to myself that you guys, especially the older folks, were absolutely nuts for dismissing Kolek.
Glad I finally recognized the timeframe. Kolek is an all timer (kinda like Bailey, eh chicos)
The trajectory of this thread underscores how much Kolek has improved during his time at Marquette. He had to get better for our team to take the next step, and he has gotten SO much better.
I'm a pretty tough grader, and I'm not young so I've seen lots of MU point guards, and Kolek absolutely is the best passer I've seen in a Marquette uniform. I wouldn't have said that 14 months ago -- and I didn't early in this thread, naming Worthen.
Pretty incredible that Shaka could watch this kid as a mid-major 2-guard and identify him as a floor general good enough to be BEPOY -- an all-time recruiting "get" IMHO. Also kudos to Scoopers like Ners and Goose for realizing early on that he could be pretty special.
Oh, and kudos to brew, too. He said this way back on 1/18/22 -- a long time before Shaka trusted Oso to be our "point center":
I wouldn't put him on any list like this yet, but I could see Oso being on this type of list down the line. Definitely one of the best big man passers we've had.
As we now know, Oso is an awesome passer ... and reason #1A that Marquette is the Big East champion.
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Great Sam Worthen story from Ernie Douse/Tony Sykes.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ernie+douse+sam+worthen&&view=detail&mid=531CC3756D3CF72F3FEB531CC3756D3CF72F3FEB&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dernie%2520douse%2520sam%2520worthen%26qs%3Dn%26form%3DQBVR%26%3D%2525eManage%2520Your%2520Search%2520History%2525E%26sp%3D-1%26lq%3D0%26pq%3Dernie%2520douse%2520sam%2520worthen%26sc%3D0-23%26sk%3D%26cvid%3D1B36BAE8F3F2494695E1E82626BB7D99%26ghsh%3D0%26ghacc%3D0%26ghpl%3D
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I want anyone who remembers better to correct me, because I may be fuzzy on this. I believe Marquette was playing Duke on national TV in the 1979-80 season. The game was played at the Dane County Coliseum in Madison and Billy Packer was the analyst.
Duke was inbounding under their own basket and Sam was fronting a Duke playing on the side of the lane with his back to the inbounder. All of a sudden Sam is on the ground with the Duke player on top of him and a charge was called on the Duke player. The replay showed that Sam had grabbed the Duke players shorts with both hands and fell back and the Duke player fell on top of him. Billy Packer went absolutely wild calling it a playground move. I was in the TV room at a dorm at UW-LaCrosse watching the game with about 8 other guys and everybody just started laughing because it was so damn funny and indeed a playground move.
Worthen was one of the most unique players to ever play at Marquette.
https://twitter.com/MUOverload/status/1624196516628889601
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Ted
Worthen was indeed unique. He was a ton of fun to watch, and he was ahead of the curve in being a tall PG. Easily one of he most entertaining players in MU history, IMO.
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Ted
Worthen was indeed unique. He was a ton of fun to watch, and he was ahead of the curve in being a tall PG. Easily one of he most entertaining players in MU history, IMO.
My memory of Sam the Sham also includes Rod Luck on the play by play.
Yes, Ted, your memory was perfectly correct.
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Kolek is the best and it’s not close.
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Maybe it's just me, but Oso is up there too. His no-looks, his sense for where guys are the pick and roll, his ability to receive and quickly redistribute, definitely the best passing big I've seen here and one of the better passers period.
Another impressive aspect for Kolek is how much he's cut down the turnovers. He still has the occasional too hot pass or risky pass that ends up in the defense's hands, but it's far less than last year and as he said recently, if you're going to create for others, you're going to turn it over sometimes too.
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Maybe it's just me, but Oso is up there too. His no-looks, his sense for where guys are the pick and roll, his ability to receive and quickly redistribute, definitely the best passing big I've seen here and one of the better passers period.
Another impressive aspect for Kolek is how much he's cut down the turnovers. He still has the occasional too hot pass or risky pass that ends up in the defense's hands, but it's far less than last year and as he said recently, if you're going to create for others, you're going to turn it over sometimes too.
Like Oso but Koleks court vision is far greater than Osos.
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5 Dollar
I agree. I have never been a stat only guy in grading players and Kolek is the best, regardless of stats. Tony Miller had the ball in his hands an awful lot of the time and was very good in that role. That said, it is not even a question that Kolek is the best ever at MU.
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5 Dollar
I agree. I have never been a stat only guy in grading players and Kolek is the best, regardless of stats. Tony Miller had the ball in his hands an awful lot of the time and was very good in that role. That said, it is not even a question that Kolek is the best ever at MU.
Yep, Miller was damned good, but he got a ton more games and touches.
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Real
Tony Miller was a one man stall, not because of him, but KO. He fit the role KO wanted perfectly, but I would never consider him an all time great, even passer.
That said, his performance against Kentucky remains an all time great performance. Was one of my highlights post Al being at that game and being on the team plane with my son and brother in law. A lot of beer was consumed that night.
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From the jump, very early in his Marquette career, it was very obvious that TyKo was an elite passer, with some of the best court vision and passing ability that we have seen and I have seen in the years I’ve watched Marquette Basketball.
I can’t speak for the period before 2003, that’s why I love the perspective everyone on this board offers, but since that time Tyler is the best passing pg I’ve seen at Marquette. That’s a massive feat in itself when we had Travis Diener.
That said, it’s amazing when the game begins to slow down for a player and everything begins to work.
The rest of Tyler’s game, particularly his outside shooting and ability to drive and finish, needed a lot of work.
As MU82 has said, dude completely transformed himself in those departments and it’s amazing to see.
He just seems a step quicker, giving him more ability to get by his defender and around the big to get a good shot yo around the basket to score.
Why though? It’s doubtful he got quicker in one season like that.
When the outside shot starts dropping all other aspects of TyKos game completely open up. The defender has to respect him, has to step out and hesitate more on what he will do.
That extra second of doubt on if he will drain a 3 or make the perfect pass to the big or an open shooter allows Tyler to drive by and be more effective at getting enough separation to get a good shot up and score at the basket.
Tyler Kolek will be Big East PoY and he’s earned all of it.
Here’s to hoping he, and the rest of the awesome players on the squad, can carry Marquette to some March madness
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DoctorV
By the time Kolek is done, we will be calling Travis Diener a poor man's Tyler Kolek and that is saying a lot. Travis Diener was a big time PG, high level competitor and winner during his time at MU. I believe Tyler Kolek has surpassed him all three categories this season. I believe Tyler Kolek is having the greatest single season since Dwade and one of the all time great years in MU history.
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C'mon, Goose, go big. We will be comparing Brunson to Tyler.
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He just seems a step quicker, giving him more ability to get by his defender and around the big to get a good shot yo around the basket to score.
Why though? It’s doubtful he got quicker in one season like that.
When the outside shot starts dropping all other aspects of TyKos game completely open up. The defender has to respect him, has to step out and hesitate more on what he will do.
That extra second of doubt on if he will drain a 3 or make the perfect pass to the big or an open shooter allows Tyler to drive by and be more effective at getting enough separation to get a good shot up and score at the basket.
It's not unheard of for an athlete to improve his quickness with agility training and the like, but I think the "quickness" comes not from anything he's done physically but from the work he put in to become a better finisher and more complete offensive player -- which, most importantly of all, made him more confident and decisive.
Last season, whenever he'd take it into the lane, he was gonna pass. Plain and simple. He was still fairly effective, but he'd occasionally get caught in the air, or his eyes would get read by the defense. So he averaged 5 assists and had a 2/1 A/TO ratio -- not horrible at all but not as efficient as Marquette needed its non-scoring PG to be.
Now, Tyler goes in thinking he'll pass or score, whichever opens up best for him. You can tell he has total confidence in his ability to finish over defenders, even taller ones. He lacked that confidence last season -- and for good reason, because he couldn't do it. That second dimension (and a third dimension, his improved outside shooting) has opened things up for him and his teammates. That he's working with a gifted passing big like Oso helps, too. As a result, Kolek is now averaging 8 assists with a 3/1 A/TO ratio, which is All-American stuff.
By the time Kolek is done, we will be calling Travis Diener a poor man's Tyler Kolek and that is saying a lot. Travis Diener was a big time PG, high level competitor and winner during his time at MU. I believe Tyler Kolek has surpassed him all three categories this season. I believe Tyler Kolek is having the greatest single season since Dwade and one of the all time great years in MU history.
I mostly agree, Goose, but there is one category in which Kolek has yet to surpass Diener.
Travis didn't just ride Wade's coattails to the 2003 Final Four; he carried Wade and the rest of the team into the Sweet 16, and he played well in the third and fourth rounds, too.
I truly appreciate what Kolek has accomplished this season. But, as is the case with every top athlete, ultimately he'll be measured by how far he has led his team. Diener was gonna be remembered fondly no matter what for his body of work, but he became a Marquette legend because of what he did in the first two games of the 2003 NCAA tournament. Similarly, Kolek has a great chance to cement that part of his legacy over the next 4 weeks -- and I wouldn't bet against him doing it!
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82
Agreed. March success defines a career in my book.
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I want anyone who remembers better to correct me, because I may be fuzzy on this. I believe Marquette was playing Duke on national TV in the 1979-80 season. The game was played at the Dane County Coliseum in Madison and Billy Packer was the analyst.
Duke was inbounding under their own basket and Sam was fronting a Duke playing on the side of the lane with his back to the inbounder. All of a sudden Sam is on the ground with the Duke player on top of him and a charge was called on the Duke player. The replay showed that Sam had grabbed the Duke players shorts with both hands and fell back and the Duke player fell on top of him. Billy Packer went absolutely wild calling it a playground move. I was in the TV room at a dorm at UW-LaCrosse watching the game with about 8 other guys and everybody just started laughing because it was so damn funny and indeed a playground move.
Worthen was one of the most unique players to ever play at Marquette.
https://twitter.com/MUOverload/status/1624196516628889601
Was at the game
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Jeff Anderson SUX
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Trajectory?
You think he's an NBA player?
1000%. And the more you watch him, it bears out. Honestly, he reminds me of Jason Williams at Florida when you start to look at his vision and creativity when it come to passing and angles.
And honestly, while it seems crazy to think about given his professional trajectory and different eras...
Steve Nash 6'3 195 (Jr and Sr year at Santa Clara): 19/3.5/6 on 44/40/88
Tyler Kolek 6'3 190 (Jr at Marquette): 13/4.1/8 on 49/41/82
Hmmm....Nash also didn't have a good secondary scoring option. Kolek does.
Also, no disrespect to either of them, but when you look at his recent BE POY comps, Arcidiacono and Gillespie, not only is he an equivalent shooter to them, but he's a FAR superior distributor.
If he's not a mid-second round pick in the 2024 draft, if not higher, id be shocked
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I agree and would take Kolek’s NBA prospects ahead of anyone else on the team at this point. Wouldn’t have said that two months ago.
Improving quickness and agility, especially defensively, will be key for him to unlock the next level. But he’s not a player I’d bet against to keep evolving his game.