Marquette "What Ifs"

[Mutaman]

2) What if... Marquette had not been penalized for playing basketball while being African American in Georgia in 1971?
Probably would have gone to the Final Four. That team was loaded. But the Ohio State game in Athens, Georgia was the only one in his career where Dean Meminger fouled out.

That was a tough one, toughest loss of my life next to Holmgren's Super Bowl fiasco. IT WAS RIGGED! We could have gone all the way.

[dgies9156]

That was a tough one, toughest loss of my life next to Holmgren's Super Bowl fiasco. IT WAS RIGGED! We could have gone all the way.

What people often forget is that Marquette was a pioneer in college basketball. McGuire thought nothing of having a team full of diverse, colorful and sometimes disruptive players. If they were African American, who the heck cared? Just win, baby!

Unfortunately, if we played anywhere in the south, lots of people cared way too much about the color of our team's skin. I am firmly convinced that the core of the nastiness between Adolph Rupp and Al McGuire had to do with McGuire's commitment to African-American players. Marquette had recruited African Americans a full decade before Kentucky and Rupp had some high profile losses to us. Rupp was a big deal then in NCAA basketball circles and his Kentucky Wildcats ruled the southeast.

The Ohio State game was in Athens, GA. The first African-American player in the SEC was Perry Wallace and he had graduated Vanderbilt just a year prior. Plus, the referees in that part of the country were not used to seeing or calling the kind of basketball we played. They were used to the finesse ball then played in the SEC.

When you mix ignorant racism with ignorant officiating and a "get 'em" attitude by one of the nation's best known basketball coaches (who had been embarrassed by an all-African American team a few years earlier in the NCAA Championship), you get what happened to us in Athens, GA that night. It was one of the more disgusting displays of bigotry in a  sporting event I've ever seen.

[Billy Hoyle]

What people often forget is that Marquette was a pioneer in college basketball. McGuire thought nothing of having a team full of diverse, colorful and sometimes disruptive players. If they were African American, who the heck cared? Just win, baby!

The Ohio State game was in Athens, GA. The first African-American player in the SEC was Perry Wallace and he had graduated Vanderbilt just a year prior. Plus, the referees in that part of the country were not used to seeing or calling the kind of basketball we played. They were used to the finesse ball then played in the SEC.

Didn't Ohio State (the school that gave us Jesse Owens) also have Black players on their team? Jim Clemons was one of them. The Big Ten and other northern schools (Loyola, when you look at 1963) had racially diverse rosters, it wasn't just MU.

[Herman Cain]

What if a 3-way with Lisa and Gail, hey?

You could have filmed that and gotten a lot of views/$$ from a P@rn site

[Herman Cain]

What people often forget is that Marquette was a pioneer in college basketball. McGuire thought nothing of having a team full of diverse, colorful and sometimes disruptive players. If they were African American, who the heck cared? Just win, baby!

Unfortunately, if we played anywhere in the south, lots of people cared way too much about the color of our team's skin. I am firmly convinced that the core of the nastiness between Adolph Rupp and Al McGuire had to do with McGuire's commitment to African-American players. Marquette had recruited African Americans a full decade before Kentucky and Rupp had some high profile losses to us. Rupp was a big deal then in NCAA basketball circles and his Kentucky Wildcats ruled the southeast.

The Ohio State game was in Athens, GA. The first African-American player in the SEC was Perry Wallace and he had graduated Vanderbilt just a year prior. Plus, the referees in that part of the country were not used to seeing or calling the kind of basketball we played. They were used to the finesse ball then played in the SEC.

When you mix ignorant racism with ignorant officiating and a "get 'em" attitude by one of the nation's best known basketball coaches (who had been embarrassed by an all-African American team a few years earlier in the NCAA Championship), you get what happened to us in Athens, GA that night. It was one of the more disgusting displays of bigotry in a  sporting event I've ever seen.

Al recruited the best players . They happened to be predominately African - American. There were many other schools who had African American players at that time, and had lousy records . Check out Michigan State during the period Al was coach for one.

I know the predominant story line of the Ohio State game was that Dean got a lot of bad calls. Which was true . However , one other truth was that if he had made his free throws, we would have won.

[dgies9156]

Al recruited the best players . They happened to be predominately African - American. There were many other schools who had African American players at that time, and had lousy records . Check out Michigan State during the period Al was coach for one.

I know the predominant story line of the Ohio State game was that Dean got a lot of bad calls. Which was true . However , one other truth was that if he had made his free throws, we would have won.

Herm, I agree with almost everything you said. And, yes, Ohio State had at least one African American player. I’d also note hat many other schools, particularly those in the south, also committed to recruiting the best — until it crossed the color line.

True, in a tournament you have to plan on playing a perfect game. Dean the Dream wasn’t exactly the world’s best shooter. We didn’t lose that game by much,  one point comes to mind. So, yes, any free throw would have mattered.

As bad as that game was, I nonetheless argue that you play the hand you are given and we didn’t so that in Athens. Just like we didn’t a rather later against Miami of Ohio in Indianapolis.

[Galway Eagle]

Herm, I agree with almost everything you said. And, yes, Ohio State had at least one African American player. I’d also note hat many other schools, particularly those in the south, also committed to recruiting the best — until it crossed the color line.

True, in a tournament you have to plan on playing a perfect game. Dean the Dream wasn’t exactly the world’s best shooter. We didn’t lose that game by much,  one point comes to mind. So, yes, any free throw would have mattered.

As bad as that game was, I nonetheless argue that you play the hand you are given and we didn’t so that in Athens. Just like we didn’t a rather later against Miami of Ohio in Indianapolis.

Actually if we're going to do what if's then what if Al was around in 78? Or if Hank was competent during this game?

[Herman Cain]

Herm, I agree with almost everything you said. And, yes, Ohio State had at least one African American player. I’d also note hat many other schools, particularly those in the south, also committed to recruiting the best — until it crossed the color line.

True, in a tournament you have to plan on playing a perfect game. Dean the Dream wasn’t exactly the world’s best shooter. We didn’t lose that game by much,  one point comes to mind. So, yes, any free throw would have mattered.

As bad as that game was, I nonetheless argue that you play the hand you are given and we didn’t so that in Athens. Just like we didn’t a rather later against Miami of Ohio in Indianapolis.

Having been at Market Square in 78 . I can confirm that our team is as poorly coached . Never should have come close to losing that game.

[dgies9156]

OK... What if... We had not collapsed against Miami of Ohio in March 1978?

In 1978, we were defending national champions. Butch Lee, Bernard Toone, Ulice Payne, Gary Rosenberger, Jerome Whitehead and Jim Boylan all were back from our 1977 team. We blew through our schedule like a hot knife through butter, Marquette University "Meet me in St. Louis (site of the national championships)" t-shirts were everywhere. There was a sense on campus that we were ordained to play Kentucky for the national championship a few weeks later.

Miami of Ohio probably played the best game in its school history. We went to overtime and lost 84-81 in what arguably was the worst loss in our school history. Bar none. Hank lost control of the team, we had flagrant fouls against Whitehead and Bernard Toone fouled out. We never should have been even close to Miami, much less allow them into the game. The loss started the downward spiral in Marquette's fortunes that took us from national champions to Bob Dukiet. We have yet to recover, though obviously we've had shining moments along the way.

On top of that, the lost tournament revenue from failure to get out of the first round was enormous.

Had we escaped Indianapolis that day with a win, we may well have won our regional. We would have felt good we dodged a bullet and moved on, probably beating our next opponent and the next. Whether we could have beaten Kentucky in that year's natty was a question never to be answered, though it would have been interesting if we'd drawn Notre Dame either in the Final Four or regional final.

Some would argue maybe our recruiting would have been different if we'd won. Perhaps Hank would have shown himself a worthy successor to Al. The McCrays or perhaps Mark Aguirre might have come to Marquette to continue the excellence. Combined with Oliver Lee and Sam Worthen, we would have reloaded and gone into the 1980s on a wave. Hank would have been a coach of the year candidate and he'd stuck around long enough for Majerus to be ready. Maybe we would not have been as good as we were in the 1970s, but good fortune would have continued flowing to us.

If you believe that, well, I'll sell you a bridge linking San Francisco and Marin County on the cheap.

The reality was and is that recruiting is the mother's milk of college basketball. Marquette passed over Hank in 1964 for Al for a reason and it became readily apparent why in 1978 -- and beyond. Hank couldn't hold a candle to Al's recruiting and when left with a big core of Al's team, he didn't get the job done on the court either. The university reportedly started becoming cheap and when its peers were investing in high quality, even luxurious athletic centers, Marquette continued to use the Old Gym. Rather than fighting, Hank caved. He was a great man and a very special human being. But he never should have become head basketball coach.

In short, the world left Marquette behind in the 1980s. We might have delayed the inevitable but it was going to happen as long as we kept down the path we started in 1978 and the administration wasn't willing to do what it took to be a national power in basketball.

Anybody disagree?

[Hards Alumni]

Okay, I'm going to be that guy.  It is perfectly fine to call people Black or Black Americans.  'African-Americans' is such a weird thing to say.  It assumes a lot about a person.  Someone may be very dark skinned and yet may not be "African-American".  I know people who don't identify as African American... His family is from the Bahamas, and so he doesn't consider his lineage to be African American.

We don't refer to Elon Musk as an African American... despite the fact that he clearly is.  Africa is an enormous country with a ton of diversity.

IMO, retire "African-American" from your vocabulary if you can... unless someone refers to themselves that way or asks to be referred to in that way, it can be very assuming.

Now, before I get called names like "wokey" (???????) I'm not saying you CAN'T call people African American, I'm only pointing out that not every Black person considers themselves African American.

[HutchwasClutch]

Okay, I'm going to be that guy.  It is perfectly fine to call people Black or Black Americans.  'African-Americans' is such a weird thing to say.  It assumes a lot about a person.  Someone may be very dark skinned and yet may not be "African-American".  I know people who don't identify as African American... His family is from the Bahamas, and so he doesn't consider his lineage to be African American.

We don't refer to Elon Musk as an African American... despite the fact that he clearly is.  Africa is an enormous country with a ton of diversity.

IMO, retire "African-American" from your vocabulary if you can... unless someone refers to themselves that way or asks to be referred to in that way, it can be very assuming.

Now, before I get called names like "wokey" (???????) I'm not saying you CAN'T call people African American, I'm only pointing out that not every Black person considers themselves African American.

This all has nothing to do with this topic, but a good post and I agree.

Africa is a continent. 

[dgies9156]

Okay, I'm going to be that guy.  It is perfectly fine to call people Black or Black Americans.  'African-Americans' is such a weird thing to say.  It assumes a lot about a person.  Someone may be very dark skinned and yet may not be "African-American".  I know people who don't identify as African American... His family is from the Bahamas, and so he doesn't consider his lineage to be African American.

We don't refer to Elon Musk as an African American... despite the fact that he clearly is.  Africa is an enormous country with a ton of diversity.

IMO, retire "African-American" from your vocabulary if you can... unless someone refers to themselves that way or asks to be referred to in that way, it can be very assuming.

Now, before I get called names like "wokey" (???????) I'm not saying you CAN'T call people African American, I'm only pointing out that not every Black person considers themselves African American.

Brother Hutch:

Thanks, I will then. I'm just following convention and I inherently know you're right.

[Herman Cain]

OK... What if... We had not collapsed against Miami of Ohio in March 1978?

In 1978, we were defending national champions. Butch Lee, Bernard Toone, Ulice Payne, Gary Rosenberger, Jerome Whitehead and Jim Boylan all were back from our 1977 team. We blew through our schedule like a hot knife through butter, Marquette University "Meet me in St. Louis (site of the national championships)" t-shirts were everywhere. There was a sense on campus that we were ordained to play Kentucky for the national championship a few weeks later.

Miami of Ohio probably played the best game in its school history. We went to overtime and lost 84-81 in what arguably was the worst loss in our school history. Bar none. Hank lost control of the team, we had flagrant fouls against Whitehead and Bernard Toone fouled out. We never should have been even close to Miami, much less allow them into the game. The loss started the downward spiral in Marquette's fortunes that took us from national champions to Bob Dukiet. We have yet to recover, though obviously we've had shining moments along the way.

On top of that, the lost tournament revenue from failure to get out of the first round was enormous.

Had we escaped Indianapolis that day with a win, we may well have won our regional. We would have felt good we dodged a bullet and moved on, probably beating our next opponent and the next. Whether we could have beaten Kentucky in that year's natty was a question never to be answered, though it would have been interesting if we'd drawn Notre Dame either in the Final Four or regional final.

Some would argue maybe our recruiting would have been different if we'd won. Perhaps Hank would have shown himself a worthy successor to Al. The McCrays or perhaps Mark Aguirre might have come to Marquette to continue the excellence. Combined with Oliver Lee and Sam Worthen, we would have reloaded and gone into the 1980s on a wave. Hank would have been a coach of the year candidate and he'd stuck around long enough for Majerus to be ready. Maybe we would not have been as good as we were in the 1970s, but good fortune would have continued flowing to us.

If you believe that, well, I'll sell you a bridge linking San Francisco and Marin County on the cheap.

The reality was and is that recruiting is the mother's milk of college basketball. Marquette passed over Hank in 1964 for Al for a reason and it became readily apparent why in 1978 -- and beyond. Hank couldn't hold a candle to Al's recruiting and when left with a big core of Al's team, he didn't get the job done on the court either. The university reportedly started becoming cheap and when its peers were investing in high quality, even luxurious athletic centers, Marquette continued to use the Old Gym. Rather than fighting, Hank caved. He was a great man and a very special human being. But he never should have become head basketball coach.

In short, the world left Marquette behind in the 1980s. We might have delayed the inevitable but it was going to happen as long as we kept down the path we started in 1978 and the administration wasn't willing to do what it took to be a national power in basketball.

Anybody disagree?

I think the question should be phrased in what if?
What if MU wasn’t cheap?
If MU wasn’t cheap there would still be a football team
If MU wasn’t cheap there would still be a Medical School
If MU wasn’t cheap Al would not have quick for a few bucks from Medalist Industries

Of course the irony is MU is no longer cheap .

[dgies9156]

I think the question should be phrased in what if?
What if MU wasn’t cheap?
If MU wasn’t cheap there would still be a football team
If MU wasn’t cheap there would still be a Medical School
If MU wasn’t cheap Al would not have quick for a few bucks from Medalist Industries

Of course the irony is MU is no longer cheap .

Brother Herm:

If I had to do an MBA strategy thesis again, I would love to do the demise of the Marquette basketball program, 1977-2020. I think Marquette's demise is a combination of an inherent frugality coupled with a series of bad decisions, inability to fully grasp the changing landscape of college athletics, the rise of competitive businesses (aka, the Big East, Part 1 and about 200 other basketball playing universities), failure to recognize the strategic importance of basketball to your core stakeholders and customers.

The list goes on. MU took a brand name College Basketball program, a blue blood if you will, and damn near destroyed it. I'm amazed there is still as much loyalty to the program as there is. Hopefully, Shaka leverages it and what we've done to rebuild and recreates the legend.

[Galway Eagle]

Brother Herm:

If I had to do an MBA strategy thesis again, I would love to do the demise of the Marquette basketball program, 1977-2020. I think Marquette's demise is a combination of an inherent frugality coupled with a series of bad decisions, inability to fully grasp the changing landscape of college athletics, the rise of competitive businesses (aka, the Big East, Part 1 and about 200 other basketball playing universities), failure to recognize the strategic importance of basketball to your core stakeholders and customers.

The list goes on. MU took a brand name College Basketball program, a blue blood if you will, and damn near destroyed it. I'm amazed there is still as much loyalty to the program as there is. Hopefully, Shaka leverages it and what we've done to rebuild and recreates the legend.

Has anyone done a rough analysis of our fan base or even scoop users to see if there's a significant drop off in fans or users that come from 83-92, 98-02, or Wojo years?

I mean it's fair to say that if you attended MU from 02-13 you bought into the hype train, we had draft picks, NBA players, etc etc.

93-97 I'd imagine there's a decent bit of support as we had a few draft picks, decent few NBA players (Smith, Mac, Crawford, Amal, Doc), one tournament run, couple conference championships and a fun NIT run.

Al years are obvious and while Hank was a downgrade I'd imagine the fresh championship and fact that we were still making the tournament makes it somewhat of an extension.

[Goose]

dgies

1000% correct. Your post is spot on.

[Hards Alumni]

Has anyone done a rough analysis of our fan base or even scoop users to see if there's a significant drop off in fans or users that come from 83-92, 98-02, or Wojo years?

I mean it's fair to say that if you attended MU from 02-13 you bought into the hype train, we had draft picks, NBA players, etc etc.

93-97 I'd imagine there's a decent bit of support as we had a few draft picks, decent few NBA players (Smith, Mac, Crawford, Amal, Doc), one tournament run, couple conference championships and a fun NIT run.

Al years are obvious and while Hank was a downgrade I'd imagine the fresh championship and fact that we were still making the tournament makes it somewhat of an extension.

I'm not directing this at you Galway, but just using your quote.

Personally, I appreciate the Al era, but I don't even consider that era to be modern basketball.  So many rules have changed and college basketball is an entirely different sport than it was.  We revere Al around here because he was a bad ass mother focker.  I'd definitely hesistate to call us a 'former blue blood' though.  We were a powerhouse under one coach for about a decade.  I'd compare the success under Al to Nolan Richardson at Arkansas or Jerry Tarkanian at UNLV.  No one wanted to play Arkansas in the late 80s - early 90s, or UNLV in the 80s-90s.  Those programs have had mixed success since these coaches departed.  Certainly no one would consider either of them former blue bloods either. 

The difference between Al and a lot of coaches is that Al was smart enough to go out on top.

[Galway Eagle]

I'm not directing this at you Galway, but just using your quote.

Personally, I appreciate the Al era, but I don't even consider that era to be modern basketball.  So many rules have changed and college basketball is an entirely different sport than it was.  We revere Al around here because he was a bad ass mother focker.  I'd definitely hesistate to call us a 'former blue blood' though.  We were a powerhouse under one coach for about a decade.  I'd compare the success under Al to Nolan Richardson at Arkansas or Jerry Tarkanian at UNLV.  No one wanted to play Arkansas in the late 80s - early 90s, or UNLV in the 80s-90s.  Those programs have had mixed success since these coaches departed.  Certainly no one would consider either of them former blue bloods either. 

The difference between Al and a lot of coaches is that Al was smart enough to go out on top.

I've made this comparison before and got crucified for it and called too young to appreciate how good we were. Hope it goes better for you.

[MU82]

I'm not directing this at you Galway, but just using your quote.

Personally, I appreciate the Al era, but I don't even consider that era to be modern basketball.  So many rules have changed and college basketball is an entirely different sport than it was.  We revere Al around here because he was a bad ass mother focker and he won a lot, including our alma mater's only championship.  I'd definitely hesistate to call us a 'former blue blood' though.  We were a powerhouse under one coach for about a decade.  I'd compare the success under Al to Nolan Richardson at Arkansas or Jerry Tarkanian at UNLV.  No one wanted to play Arkansas in the late 80s - early 90s, or UNLV in the 80s-90s.  Those programs have had mixed success since these coaches departed.  Certainly no one would consider either of them former blue bloods either. 

The difference between Al and a lot of coaches is that Al was smart enough to go out on top.

FIFY.

There have been plenty of coaches in all sports who were/are considered "bad ass mother fockers." The ones who win are adored by their fans and often become national icons; the ones who don't go to the scrap heap of history and usually are mocked and/or reviled.

Otherwise, I agree with your post.

[Hards Alumni]

I've made this comparison before and got crucified for it and called too young to appreciate how good we were. Hope it goes better for you.

I expect to be dragged for it, and it's fine.  I think we both might have the luxury of being able to remove our emotions from the topic since we didn't live the era... allowing us to be a bit more objective. 

[Billy Hoyle]

Brother Herm:

If I had to do an MBA strategy thesis again, I would love to do the demise of the Marquette basketball program, 1977-2020. I think Marquette's demise is a combination of an inherent frugality coupled with a series of bad decisions, inability to fully grasp the changing landscape of college athletics, the rise of competitive businesses (aka, the Big East, Part 1 and about 200 other basketball playing universities), failure to recognize the strategic importance of basketball to your core stakeholders and customers.

The list goes on. MU took a brand name College Basketball program, a blue blood if you will, and damn near destroyed it. I'm amazed there is still as much loyalty to the program as there is. Hopefully, Shaka leverages it and what we've done to rebuild and recreates the legend.

You completely ignore the changing landscape of college basketball and the impact football and TV revenue had on it. Many Catholic and private schools that were "powers" in the 50's, 60's and 70's have fallen behind the public schools with massive funding. Detroit, Bradley, Loyola, DePaul, San Francisco, Setattle U, Dayton,  Ivy schools (Penn was in the 1979 Final Four), What was Michigan State before Magic then in much of the 80's? What was Texas and Oklahoma? How about Arizona and UConn? Baylor, and, I hate to say it, Bucky?

And no, one title, a NIT title (even with our revisionist history) and two Final Four appearances does not make MU a blue blood.

[Scoop Snoop]

You completely ignore the changing landscape of college basketball and the impact football and TV revenue had on it. Many Catholic and private schools that were "powers" in the 50's, 60's and 70's have fallen behind the public schools with massive funding. Detroit, Bradley, Loyola, DePaul, San Francisco, Setattle U, Dayton,  Ivy schools (Penn was in the 1979 Final Four), What was Michigan State before Magic then in much of the 80's? What was Texas and Oklahoma? How about Arizona and UConn? Baylor, and, I hate to say it, Bucky?

And no, one title, a NIT title (even with our revisionist history) and two Final Four appearances does not make MU a blue blood.

True, many of the Catholic and other private schools that were powers in CBB took quite a hit for the reasons you stated. Today's top CBB private schools are represented by Villanova, Gonzaga, Baylor (a private, not a public school) and, a step or two down, others like Xavier, Seton Hall, even Loyola etc. While Nova has proved that it can be done and hopefully Gonzaga will prove in April (but hey! private school Baylor won) , a NC for a private school is, today, a very tall order. Ignoring the enormous pull of cash cow FB and almost unlimited amount of money that the public schools can spend is not dealing with reality. 

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Private schools have won 4 (FIXED) of the last 6 championships.  There was a long public university streak that preceded it and publics have dominated the championships overall.

edit: i just eyeballed the results (private listed out of obviously 10)...looks like its always been a certain way, but if you widen out to final fours maybe it tells a different story.

40s - 1
50s - 3 (although CCNY should be an honorary 4th)
60s - 3
70s - 1
80s - 2
90s - 2
00s - 2
10s - 4

[Dr. Blackheart]

You completely ignore the changing landscape of college basketball and the impact football and TV revenue had on it. Many Catholic and private schools that were "powers" in the 50's, 60's and 70's have fallen behind the public schools with massive funding. Detroit, Bradley, Loyola, DePaul, San Francisco, Setattle U, Dayton,  Ivy schools (Penn was in the 1979 Final Four), What was Michigan State before Magic then in much of the 80's? What was Texas and Oklahoma? How about Arizona and UConn? Baylor, and, I hate to say it, Bucky?

And no, one title, a NIT title (even with our revisionist history) and two Final Four appearances does not make MU a blue blood.

I agree with this but I will add that Al doesn't get enough credit for being a major change agent in this shift. First, we know the history of Marquette jersey's as a national  marketing tool. Second, being an independent, Marquette was on national TV frequently via independent sports syndicated networks whereas as conference media was local or regional with radio most prominent. Third, when Al switched to announcing, his emotional storytelling created characters that increased fan engagement: Ray Meyer, Digger, Magic vs. Bird, the coaches, the Syracuse dance, the sayings like The Big Dance, even Dicky V.

Thus, you see the Big East conference formed backed by TV, timed with cable. Uniform sales and marketing exploding and now we have NIL. Coaches as multi-millionaires (Al knew his worth and advocated for coaching tenure). The football conferences creating their own media assets, etc.

I honestly think only Dick Enberg gave Al his full due for being a visionary beyond his primary basketball job that we revere him for. His bigger contributions to the sport may have been as AD and announcer than basketball coach.

The biggest "what if" then is, after he left, MU completely whiffed on this sea change Al revolutionized. MU held the Golden Nugget but played the copper penny.

[Scoop Snoop]

Private schools have won 5 of the last 6 championships.  There was a long public university streak that preceded it and publics have dominated the championships overall.

edit: i just eyeballed the results (private listed out of obviously 10)...looks like its always been a certain way, but if you widen out to final fours maybe it tells a different story.

40s - 1
50s - 3 (although CCNY should be an honorary 4th)
60s - 3
70s - 1
80s - 2
90s - 2
00s - 2
10s - 4

Good point regarding recent private school NC's. I forgot about Duke. I count 4 out of the last 6, ignoring 2020 and going back to 2015. Anyway, it's very encouraging.