TBT 2021

[HutchwasClutch]

This is where people always get lost. It doesn't matter if a majority are insulted or not.  It only matters that a significant population of reasonable people are.

Thank goodness you're here for us lost souls. 

A 2019 WP poll further reaffirmed the '16 results and dug deeper. 

I won't derail this thread further.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/a-survey-explores-how-native-americans-feel-about-the-name-washington-redskins-no-its-not-that-survey-this-one-is-new/2019/08/09/e38553bc-b581-11e9-8949-5f36ff92706e_story.html%3foutputType=amp

[The Sultan]

And I can be insulted by Redskins and Indians as a non-Native individual as well. 

Anyway, the name Warriors wasn't the problem.  It was Warriors plus the association with Native imagery that was.  As has been stated 100 times. 

[The Sultan]

Thank goodness you're here for us lost souls. 

A 2019 WP poll further reaffirmed the '16 results and dug deeper. 

I won't derail this thread further.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/a-survey-explores-how-native-americans-feel-about-the-name-washington-redskins-no-its-not-that-survey-this-one-is-new/2019/08/09/e38553bc-b581-11e9-8949-5f36ff92706e_story.html%3foutputType=amp

I'm shocked you don't get it.  Completely shocked. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Thank goodness you're here for us lost souls. 

A 2019 WP poll further reaffirmed the '16 results and dug deeper. 

I won't derail this thread further.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/a-survey-explores-how-native-americans-feel-about-the-name-washington-redskins-no-its-not-that-survey-this-one-is-new/2019/08/09/e38553bc-b581-11e9-8949-5f36ff92706e_story.html%3foutputType=amp

Again whether or not a majority are insulted is irrelevant. All that matters is that a significant population of reasonable people are. There are literally 1000s of mascots that no reasonable person could find insulting to their race. Why would you go with the one that was insulting to the race of 1000s of people?

[Dr. Blackheart]

And I can be insulted by Redskins and Indians as a non-Native individual as well. 

Anyway, the name Warriors wasn't the problem.  It was Warriors plus the association with Native imagery that was.  As has been stated 100 times.

The offensive imagery (Willie Wampum) was eliminated 22 years before the name Warriors was dropped. What followed was a series of inauthentic attempts by MU administrators to adopt "safe" replacements (Bleautaux, I cannot burn your moppy image out of my mind) that only whitewashed things and infuriated alumni even more (at a time when these same geniuses wanted to drop MUBB to DIII). It ended with an administration sell-out in exchange for land, compounded later with the ham-handed Gold fiasco.

Just as people adopt the term "Social Justice Warrior" today, MU could have found a way to make it fit the fabric of what the university was founded on and stood for. San Diego State Aztecs, FSU Seminoles, the Oakland Warriors and even the Potawatomis themselves (let's face it, betting is not true to the Native American heritage) have found a way to commercially market their imagery in a socially acceptable way.

And just to be clear, many of the same people advocating for "Warriors" today protested the Willie Wampum imagery back in 1971 when it was rightly dropped. More so, these same people were indeed SJWs on social, racial and anti-war issues. The BB coach and team stood up against this center stage: With their uniforms, their brashness, their f/u to the racist NCAA and with cutting down nets with switchblades. Warriors stood for something. The switch, not so much.

That said, the Warrior fabric has been broken long ago and diminished by administrators who never understood this history nor cared. It is far better in my mind to have Warriors as the underground nickname while tepidly having the Golden Eagles as the official (even though that imagery has absolutely nothing to do with the university's history or heritage and the birds aren't even seen in SE Wisconsin). It could have been done but the time has passed. A switch back now would be as inauthentic and offensive as a purple fuzzy ball of yarn was in the 1980's.

Move along people but I will continue to where my tasteful Marquette Warrior gear that fell of the back off the truck as my statement of protest.

[The Sultan]

The offensive imagery (Willie Wampum) was eliminated 22 years before the name Warriors was dropped. What followed was a series of inauthentic attempts by MU administrators to adopt "safe" replacements (Bleautaux, I cannot burn your moppy image out of my mind) that only whitewashed things and infuriated alumni even more (at a time when these same geniuses wanted to drop MUBB to DIII). It ended with an administration sell-out in exchange for land, compounded later with the ham-handed Gold fiasco.

Just as people adopt the term "Social Justice Warrior" today, MU could have found a way to make it fit the fabric of what the university was founded on and stood for. San Diego State Aztecs, FSU Seminoles, the Oakland Warriors and even the Potawatomis themselves (let's face it, betting is not true to the Native American heritage) have found a way to commercially market their imagery in a socially acceptable way.

And just to be clear, many of the same people advocating for "Warriors" today protested the Willie Wampum imagery back in 1971 when it was rightly dropped. More so, these same people were indeed SJWs on social, racial and anti-war issues. The BB coach and team stood up against this center stage: With their uniforms, their brashness, their f/u to the racist NCAA and with cutting down nets with switchblades. Warriors stood for something. The switch, not so much.

That said, the Warrior fabric has been broken long ago and diminished by administrators who never understood this history nor cared. It is far better in my mind to have Warriors as the underground nickname while tepidly having the Golden Eagles as the official (even though that imagery has absolutely nothing to do with the university's history or heritage and the birds aren't even seen in SE Wisconsin). It could have been done but the time has passed. A switch back now would be as inauthentic and offensive as a purple fuzzy ball of yarn was in the 1980's.

Move along people but I will continue to where my tasteful Marquette Warrior gear that fell of the back off the truck as my statement of protest.

Yep yep yep.

[Shooter McGavin]

Agreed Dr. B.

[MU82]

The offensive imagery (Willie Wampum) was eliminated 22 years before the name Warriors was dropped. What followed was a series of inauthentic attempts by MU administrators to adopt "safe" replacements (Bleautaux, I cannot burn your moppy image out of my mind) that only whitewashed things and infuriated alumni even more (at a time when these same geniuses wanted to drop MUBB to DIII). It ended with an administration sell-out in exchange for land, compounded later with the ham-handed Gold fiasco.

Just as people adopt the term "Social Justice Warrior" today, MU could have found a way to make it fit the fabric of what the university was founded on and stood for. San Diego State Aztecs, FSU Seminoles, the Oakland Warriors and even the Potawatomis themselves (let's face it, betting is not true to the Native American heritage) have found a way to commercially market their imagery in a socially acceptable way.

And just to be clear, many of the same people advocating for "Warriors" today protested the Willie Wampum imagery back in 1971 when it was rightly dropped. More so, these same people were indeed SJWs on social, racial and anti-war issues. The BB coach and team stood up against this center stage: With their uniforms, their brashness, their f/u to the racist NCAA and with cutting down nets with switchblades. Warriors stood for something. The switch, not so much.

That said, the Warrior fabric has been broken long ago and diminished by administrators who never understood this history nor cared. It is far better in my mind to have Warriors as the underground nickname while tepidly having the Golden Eagles as the official (even though that imagery has absolutely nothing to do with the university's history or heritage and the birds aren't even seen in SE Wisconsin). It could have been done but the time has passed. A switch back now would be as inauthentic and offensive as a purple fuzzy ball of yarn was in the 1980's.

Move along people but I will continue to where my tasteful Marquette Warrior gear that fell of the back off the truck as my statement of protest.

The best thing I have ever read on Scoop regarding this subject.

Thanks, Dr. B.

[Lennys Tap]

This is where people always get lost. It doesn't matter if a majority are insulted or not.  It only matters that a significant population of reasonable people are.

I'm one of those "reasonable people" (imo) who has always been offended by "redskins". It was a derogatory slur when I was growing up and that is always how I will view it.

However, I have oft times been lectured here (fairly) that words over time either change their meanings or the effects they have on people. Some that were perfectly fine in my youth are off limits now. Does that also work in reverse? You say it doesn't matter if a majority are offended. I agree. But 90% isn't remotely close to 50/50. It's a super, super majority and it's rare that any poll is that overwhelmingly one sided. I disagree with the 90%, but doesn't their opinion matter?

[Lennys Tap]

The offensive imagery (Willie Wampum) was eliminated 22 years before the name Warriors was dropped. What followed was a series of inauthentic attempts by MU administrators to adopt "safe" replacements (Bleautaux, I cannot burn your moppy image out of my mind) that only whitewashed things and infuriated alumni even more (at a time when these same geniuses wanted to drop MUBB to DIII). It ended with an administration sell-out in exchange for land, compounded later with the ham-handed Gold fiasco.

Just as people adopt the term "Social Justice Warrior" today, MU could have found a way to make it fit the fabric of what the university was founded on and stood for. San Diego State Aztecs, FSU Seminoles, the Oakland Warriors and even the Potawatomis themselves (let's face it, betting is not true to the Native American heritage) have found a way to commercially market their imagery in a socially acceptable way.

And just to be clear, many of the same people advocating for "Warriors" today protested the Willie Wampum imagery back in 1971 when it was rightly dropped. More so, these same people were indeed SJWs on social, racial and anti-war issues. The BB coach and team stood up against this center stage: With their uniforms, their brashness, their f/u to the racist NCAA and with cutting down nets with switchblades. Warriors stood for something. The switch, not so much.

That said, the Warrior fabric has been broken long ago and diminished by administrators who never understood this history nor cared. It is far better in my mind to have Warriors as the underground nickname while tepidly having the Golden Eagles as the official (even though that imagery has absolutely nothing to do with the university's history or heritage and the birds aren't even seen in SE Wisconsin). It could have been done but the time has passed. A switch back now would be as inauthentic and offensive as a purple fuzzy ball of yarn was in the 1980's.

Move along people but I will continue to where my tasteful Marquette Warrior gear that fell of the back off the truck as my statement of protest.

Nailed it, Doc.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

However, I have oft times been lectured here (fairly) that words over time either change their meanings or the effects they have on people. Some that were perfectly fine in my youth are off limits now. Does that also work in reverse?

Can you give me an example?  I honestly can't think of one so I'm inclined to say no.

You say it doesn't matter if a majority are offended. I agree. But 90% isn't remotely close to 50/50. It's a super, super majority and it's rare that any poll is that overwhelmingly one sided. I disagree with the 90%, but doesn't their opinion matter?

Of course their opinion matters. But that doesn't mean that you ignore the minority. There are literally 1000s of nicknames that they will also find to not be offensive.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The offensive imagery (Willie Wampum) was eliminated 22 years before the name Warriors was dropped. What followed was a series of inauthentic attempts by MU administrators to adopt "safe" replacements (Bleautaux, I cannot burn your moppy image out of my mind) that only whitewashed things and infuriated alumni even more (at a time when these same geniuses wanted to drop MUBB to DIII). It ended with an administration sell-out in exchange for land, compounded later with the ham-handed Gold fiasco.

Just as people adopt the term "Social Justice Warrior" today, MU could have found a way to make it fit the fabric of what the university was founded on and stood for. San Diego State Aztecs, FSU Seminoles, the Oakland Warriors and even the Potawatomis themselves (let's face it, betting is not true to the Native American heritage) have found a way to commercially market their imagery in a socially acceptable way.

And just to be clear, many of the same people advocating for "Warriors" today protested the Willie Wampum imagery back in 1971 when it was rightly dropped. More so, these same people were indeed SJWs on social, racial and anti-war issues. The BB coach and team stood up against this center stage: With their uniforms, their brashness, their f/u to the racist NCAA and with cutting down nets with switchblades. Warriors stood for something. The switch, not so much.

That said, the Warrior fabric has been broken long ago and diminished by administrators who never understood this history nor cared. It is far better in my mind to have Warriors as the underground nickname while tepidly having the Golden Eagles as the official (even though that imagery has absolutely nothing to do with the university's history or heritage and the birds aren't even seen in SE Wisconsin). It could have been done but the time has passed. A switch back now would be as inauthentic and offensive as a purple fuzzy ball of yarn was in the 1980's.

Move along people but I will continue to where my tasteful Marquette Warrior gear that fell of the back off the truck as my statement of protest.

Great post Dr. B. The name change was definitely executed in a way to try to hide from the mistakes of the past rather than take ownership for them and do better moving forward. It was the cowardly way to address it.

[avid1010]

MU changing their name from Warriors to Golden Eagles hasn't effected me in any way shape or form.  When Native American groups ask teams not to use their history as a mascot it seems like a really simple concession to make.  They deserve a lot more. 

[PointWarrior]

Cool debate on the warrior name - we should discuss bringing back football too....

[Herman Cain]

Cool debate on the warrior name - we should discuss bringing back football too....

I think it was a big mistake to get rid of Football.

That said, how about that addition of Sacar to Golden Eagles Alumni. Gives the team another strong defensive presence and outside shooting. Will need a guy like him given who some of the other teams have been recruiting.

[Its DJOver]

Cool debate on the warrior name - we should discuss bringing back football too....

It's an offseason tradition.  Means that the discussion on who is and isn't a Blue Blood is right around the corner.

[monkeyman34]

............ so any TBT news?

[Galway Eagle]

............ so any TBT news?

They don't play till next week

[willie warrior]

Cool debate on the warrior name - we should discuss bringing back football too....

No Dick would be against it. MU beat them in their last football game. And everybody knows that No Dick controls college football.

[willie warrior]

This is where people always get lost. It doesn't matter if a majority are insulted or not.  It only matters that a significant population of reasonable people are.

Define "significant population". Translation: a handful of snowflakes

[Galway Eagle]

Nm

[Viper]

I had empathy. But it ran out years ago. It's been over 25 years,  long past time to move on.

Well if one person of native American descent is okay with it than it must be okay right?   

And Viper, MU has not embraced the BLM organization. They've embraced the BLM movement. Two very different things

ok, so MU has not embraced the BLM 'organization', just the 'movement'. Hmm. Well, I doubt too many folks get that. Since the BLM organization is garbage, MU should find a different approach, a different way to promote the black lives sentiment. The connotation is bad. In fact, wasn't that one reason given as to MU not remaining Warriors, but with a different mascot? The connotation of negative NA imagery was too great? Oh well, it is what it is and probably always will be. But man, Golden Eagles is just sooo lame.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

............ so any TBT news?

Best Virginia almost totally blew the Elam Ending in their game.

[Viper]

And I can be insulted by Redskins and Indians as a non-Native individual as well. 

Anyway, the name Warriors wasn't the problem.  It was Warriors plus the association with Native imagery that was.  As has been stated 100 times.

...not debating, just asking...what about the University seal with Explorer Pere Marquette in a canoe with a Native American? The relationship between European explorer and NA's was significant, and should be embraced, IMO. The Warriors moniker and 'logo' from '82 or thereabouts, and going forward, seemed pretty benign.

[Viper]

Re:TBT...when's the WarriorEagles, or whatever we are, first game?