Marquette Wearing Black in Honor of Jacob Blake

[The Lens]

I would hope Wojo has Noble Wray in to speak to the team and provide some perspective on this investigation and policing in general.  Wray did a lot of good work within Obama's DOJ and I think it would be a valuable session for everyone involved.   

I don't begrudge MU for standing up like they have; there are many times where police have crossed the line.  There are also times where that line is gray.  And IMO, there are times where they didn't cross the line but that doesn't mean the line is correct. 

[connie]

Kenosha is a symptomatic.
One decision is not the problem.
The problem is systemic.
I don't need to read one particular case as good or bad it might be.
One press conference does not reflect a trend.
The trend has been that unarmed people are being shot in the back.
Overwhelmingly they are black people. Hay Houston, we have a problem.

This is factually untrue.

[Galway Eagle]

I would hope Wojo has Noble Wray in to speak to the team and provide some perspective on this investigation and policing in general.  Wray did a lot of good work within Obama's DOJ and I think it would be a valuable session for everyone involved.   

I don't begrudge MU for standing up like they have; there are many times where police have crossed the line.  There are also times where that line is gray.  And IMO, there are times where they didn't cross the line but that doesn't mean the line is correct.

+1 this the lens to look at this through (

[cheebs09]

Not sure this has been posted ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m0CRt0_vYg

It's the nearly 2 hour press conference from the Kenosha County DA that painstakingly lays out the evidence and how they arrived at a charging decision.

It is the definitive set of information, and if one has doubts about the case, one needs to watch it before trying to argue.

Thanks for sharing. It was interesting to get the facts behind the decision.

[Dr. Blackheart]

As Fluffy has atoned to, the title of this thread didn't fully capture the statement by the team. Injustice is often not 100% right or wrong. A guilty person can be treated as unjustly as an innocent one.  Blake can be guilty of his crimes, but still be treated unjustly. If we support injustice for even the guiltiest of persons, we all have lost as a democracy.

A Jesuit education teaches us to challenge all injustices, including those by its own hand. Be the Difference. The team simply chose to wear a uniform and have a reflection. While we may or may not 100% support their statement, we all should support their position. We are all better for their action, and all MU alumni should be proud. This is what we were taught. This is how we should live our lives.

We can all continue to bloviate mindlessly on a message board to no effect, or we can go out and "be the difference" as our team did last night.

[Galway Eagle]

As Fluffy has atoned to, the title of this thread didn't fully capture the statement by the team. Injustice is often not 100% right or wrong. A guilty person can be treated as unjustly as an innocent one.  Blake can be guilty of his crimes, but still be treated unjustly. If we support injustice for even the guiltiest of persons, we all have lost as a democracy.

A Jesuit education teaches us to challenge all injustices, including those by its own hand. Be the Difference. The team simply chose to wear a uniform and have a reflection. While we may or may not 100% support their statement, we all should support their position. We are all better for their action, and all MU alumni should be proud. This is what we were taught. This is how we should live our lives.

We can all continue to bloviate mindlessly on a message board to no effect, or we can go out and "be the difference" as our team did last night.

Beautifully said.

[wadesworld]

As Fluffy has atoned to, the title of this thread didn't fully capture the statement by the team. Injustice is often not 100% right or wrong. A guilty person can be treated as unjustly as an innocent one.  Blake can be guilty of his crimes, but still be treated unjustly. If we support injustice for even the guiltiest of persons, we all have lost as a democracy.

A Jesuit education teaches us to challenge all injustices, including those by its own hand. Be the Difference. The team simply chose to wear a uniform and have a reflection. While we may or may not 100% support their statement, we all should support their position. We are all better for their action, and all MU alumni should be proud. This is what we were taught. This is how we should live our lives.

We can all continue to bloviate mindlessly on a message board to no effect, or we can go out and "be the difference" as our team did last night.

Spot on.

[warriormom]

The idea that this man was a victim of injustice is not something that I will accept.  As the mother of a police officer, I am dismayed by the effect that this is having on the majority good police officers and their work.   I would challenge those who are making their decisions based on a brief video without factual information to put themselves in the position of the officer.  Watch the video with The results of the investigation by Noble Wray a well respected black former police chief.   Now put yourself as an officer in situations where someone has a knife or a gun or approaching a vehicle for a "routine" traffic stop.   Do you second guess what you should be doing to protect yourself and others?   Are your thoughts with those officers whose lives were destroyed (officer in Ferguson who was exonerated by Obama's justice department) when they did what they should and think twice before reacting. 
My son is a MU graduate who was educated in Jesuit teaching and values and I have never seen his morale so low.  I for one am NOT proud of my university for that statement. 

[vogue65]

A civilan oversight review board is necessary to get justice, not a prosecutor, no matter how noble he or she may be.
The review board has to look for paterns of behavior because bad apples always have a track record.
Very hard to believe that the shoot first guys don't have a track record.
Someone asked me how I can identify a bully or a thug.
My answer is by a patern of behavior.
One could probably ask the officers on a legitimate force who were the bullies and thugs and get them identified.
Again, patern of behavior and identification by peer review.  Not so difficult.
Now we have cameras, but we are asked to disbelieve our lying eyes.

If a police officer doesn't want to be held accountable, if a community doesn't want civilian oversight there is nothing I can say.  A lot of things are legal, but unethical.

I have been called a lyar, thanks.
Just one question.  Who fights against oversight?  The victims?  I think not.

[The Sultan]

The idea that this man was a victim of injustice is not something that I will accept.  As the mother of a police officer, I am dismayed by the effect that this is having on the majority good police officers and their work.   I would challenge those who are making their decisions based on a brief video without factual information to put themselves in the position of the officer.  Watch the video with The results of the investigation by Noble Wray a well respected black former police chief.   Now put yourself as an officer in situations where someone has a knife or a gun or approaching a vehicle for a "routine" traffic stop.   Do you second guess what you should be doing to protect yourself and others?   Are your thoughts with those officers whose lives were destroyed (officer in Ferguson who was exonerated by Obama's justice department) when they did what they should and think twice before reacting. 
My son is a MU graduate who was educated in Jesuit teaching and values and I have never seen his morale so low.  I for one am NOT proud of my university for that statement. 

I would have more sympathy for statements like this if more officers themselves spoke out against bad actors in their own ranks.

[Billy Hoyle]

As Fluffy has atoned to, the title of this thread didn't fully capture the statement by the team. Injustice is often not 100% right or wrong. A guilty person can be treated as unjustly as an innocent one.  Blake can be guilty of his crimes, but still be treated unjustly. If we support injustice for even the guiltiest of persons, we all have lost as a democracy.

A Jesuit education teaches us to challenge all injustices, including those by its own hand. Be the Difference. The team simply chose to wear a uniform and have a reflection. While we may or may not 100% support their statement, we all should support their position. We are all better for their action, and all MU alumni should be proud. This is what we were taught. This is how we should live our lives.

We can all continue to bloviate mindlessly on a message board to no effect, or we can go out and "be the difference" as our team did last night.

Where is the line between injustice and appropriate action?  Where I live, the local police brutality martyr shot two individuals then rushed the police officer on the scene while pointing a loaded gun at him. Was it an injustice for that officer to shoot the individual rushing him? 

The two incidents which happened last month in Columbus were an injustice. What happened to George Floyd was an injustice. Amadu Diallo was a tremendous injustice. Jacob Blake? I'm not seeing it. We had access to a 30 second cell phone video, not all of the evidence.

[mu_hilltopper]

A civilan oversight review board is necessary to get justice, not a prosecutor, no matter how noble he or she may be.

Can you explain that?  Why would a civilian board succeed where a prosecutor would fail?

[vogue65]

The idea that this man was a victim of injustice is not something that I will accept.  As the mother of a police officer, I am dismayed by the effect that this is having on the majority good police officers and their work.   I would challenge those who are making their decisions based on a brief video without factual information to put themselves in the position of the officer.  Watch the video with The results of the investigation by Noble Wray a well respected black former police chief.   Now put yourself as an officer in situations where someone has a knife or a gun or approaching a vehicle for a "routine" traffic stop.   Do you second guess what you should be doing to protect yourself and others?   Are your thoughts with those officers whose lives were destroyed (officer in Ferguson who was exonerated by Obama's justice department) when they did what they should and think twice before reacting. 
My son is a MU graduate who was educated in Jesuit teaching and values and I have never seen his morale so low.  I for one am NOT proud of my university for that statement.

Perhaps we should revisit trafic stops.

Years ago my town was out on an interstate, at night, raising money with traffic stops.  Being real macho.  They don't do that anymore.  Life is none the worse for it. 

The New Jersey State Police were racially profiling and conducting many traffic stops, they don't do it anymore.  There was a consent decree involved.

Two or three officers in a car might help.  In Italy you never see an officer on patrol by himself.  The Lone Ranger even had Tonto.

The morale is irrevelant, sorry, the people being shot is the issue.  The morale might be better if the police had a better relationship with the civilians.   Hopefully the police can figure it out, they are the ones suffering along with the victims of their behavior. 

All I know is that shooting unarmed civilians in the back, black or white civilians, is deplorable.
It may be legal, it may be justifiable in a court of law, it may be blamed on poor training, it may be defensible by the police union, but it is still unacceptable. 

I can't for the life of me understand shooting an unarmed person.

Now, how about the laydown weapon. 

How many police officers cary a laydown weapon?  Forget it, we have enough to talk about.

[Galway Eagle]

The idea that this man was a victim of injustice is not something that I will accept.  As the mother of a police officer

Is it possible you're too close to the police culture to be objective?

I am dismayed by the effect that this is having on the majority good police officers and their work.   I would challenge those who are making their decisions based on a brief video without factual information to put themselves in the position of the officer. 

Agreed, he was resisting, armed, warrant out, mom screaming he has my kids and my keys, etc.

Now put yourself as an officer in situations where someone has a knife or a gun or approaching a vehicle for a "routine" traffic stop.   Do you second guess what you should be doing to protect yourself and others?   

gun is irrelevant it did not happen in this case, you can argue it's merits of other cases but not this one. But you're right it's a stressful job and one I am not envious of. That being said they asked for the job they weren't drafted so I would expect/hope that training and general personality is one where calm and logical thinking prevail over skittish hotheads with explicit biases.

are your thoughts with those officers whose lives were destroyed (officer in Ferguson who was exonerated by Obama's justice department) when they did what they should and think twice before reacting. 

Some times yes, other times no, there's many times simple laws for police protection are what guard officers from being charged whether or not the actual actions would have made a normal individual charged. Are you telling me I should feel sympathy for Mattingly who's now suing Breonna Taylor's boyfriend because his trauma from being doxed? I don't think so.

My son is a MU graduate who was educated in Jesuit teaching and values and I have never seen his morale so low.  I for one am NOT proud of my university for that statement.

I hope he's never put in a poor situation and that he can be part of proper police reform representing MU well.

[Galway Eagle]

Where is the line between injustice and appropriate action?

In this case I would say the line was about five or six shots in the back. Also the trailing a person within knife range then saying "I was threatened by a knife", when you're able to take two steps back and not be, is also a bit of overkill.

Remind me again why the second officer couldn't have shot right at the tires to prevent him from driving away? I know it's not movies but we're talking point blank range at a stopped vehicle where they chose to tail the guy by a foot instead of thinking "He's trying to drive away lets take that away from him"

[vogue65]

Can you explain that?  Why would a civilian board succeed where a prosecutor would fail?

Simple, patern of behavior.

An overly agressive or bigoted officer would have a record of complaints and thereby identified as a person unfit for the badge.

In my career I was accused as being anti-Semitic by a person who felt I was being unfair to him.
There was a hearing, the person who felt harmed had his say.  People who knew me for a long time had there say.  There was never another incident. 

Now if it happened again, and again, or similar claims were made, I would have been and should have been removed.  That is the difference between the prosecutor taking action based on one investigation and a system, behond the legal system but within our legal ststem, to clean up an organization.

In NYC, because of the union FOP, no past complaints can be presented at a trial.  Records are sealed.  Result is bad actors stay around. 

I obviously don't know much about Wisconsin, but this problem, the shooting of unarmed people, is widespread.  It must be corrected.  Before video this has been going on for decades and remained under the radar.

[vogue65]

In this case I would say the line was about five or six shots in the back. Also the trailing a person within knife range then saying "I was threatened by a knife", when you're able to take two steps back and not be, is also a bit of overkill.

Remind me again why the second officer couldn't have shot right at the tires to prevent him from driving away? I know it's not movies but we're talking point blank range at a stopped vehicle where they chose to tail the guy by a foot instead of thinking "He's trying to drive away lets take that away from him"

They do it because they can.

[vogue65]

Can you explain that?  Why would a civilian board succeed where a prosecutor would fail?

I answered your question below or above from this post.  It somehow got bracketed, check it out, if you wish.

A problematic officer with a good lawyer could hang around for a long time and cause harm.
There are loopholes, technicalities, exceptions, mistakes, yada, yada, yada.
There are also paterns of behavior.  Bullies and thugs don't change their stripes.  One incident is usually not enough to spot them.  Let me see the file on these guys, let me see the police green sheet on the police officer.

[Galway Eagle]

edit: not needed

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Shake my head when I see BLM on the Marquette uniforms. It's a Marxist terrorist organization. All lives matter.

Good to see you are going with the racist slogan. MU education didn't take, apparently.

[vogue65]

Am I missing something?
Are you making me go downstairs to watch T.V.?
Believe nothing you hear, and only half that you see.

[Galway Eagle]

Am I missing something?
Are you making me go downstairs to watch T.V.?
Believe nothing you hear, and only half that you see.

Capitol on lock down.

[warriormom]

Morale is important.  No they weren't drafted to do this job, but tell me how do you get quality individuals to do this job when they are vilified, judged and tried based upon social media video and "facts" that are immediately put out and then disproven but remain the narrative.  Examples in this case: the officers didn't do anything before shooting, Blake was there to break up a neighborhood fight, he was returning to his vehicle just trying to kind his own business.   
Google knife attacks against police to see horrific videos of police being attacked by knives
I would encourage those who don't have law enforcement experience to speak with a trained officer and discuss this case and others in regards to your concerns. It is eye opening
I am not naive enough to believe that there are no concerns with law enforcement.  But the wholesale vilification which many do is uncalled for.
My ideas for reform (many which mean more money not less to police
1. Body cams for all police departments.  Maybe need federal money for this
2. 2 man squads.   Protects officers and the public
3. Improved training for training officers
4. Longer more extensive training.  My son has a college degree and he gets the same training as a 19 year old former police aid. 
5 physical fitness requirements for officers
6. Evaluations of incidents with all involved major and minor.  On my hospital unit we identified incidents that had potential for bad outcomes as well as bad outcomes and we reviewed them as a team, giving lessons learned to those involved and not involved.  As someone said patterns of behavior should and can be tracked and dealt with hopefully before tragic outcomes
7. Mental health care for officers.  Most of us can't imagine what these officers have to deal with daily.  And yes I know they signed up for the job.   We want to keep them mentally healthy to perform it
8. Decrease the power of unions. I have no idea how you do this

[vogue65]

edit: not needed

[The Sultan]

edit: not needed